No, Actually, It's that the Economy is Falling Apart

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It has been fascinating to watch the right-wing press lap up the anti-media nonsense put out by the McCain campaign's Steve Schmidt regarding Sarah Palin. The latest is Jeffrey Bell, in the Weekly Standard, who makes the media's attempt to find out just exactly who Palin is part of a seamless, anti-clerical cloak that goes all...the...way...back...to...the French Revolution:

The most important thing to know about the left today is that it is centered on social issues. At root, it always has been, ever since the movement took form and received its name in the revolutionary Paris of the 1790s. In order to drive toward a vision of true human liberation, all the institutions and moral codes we associate with civilization had to be torn down. The institutions targeted in revolutionary France included the monarchy and the nobility, but even higher on the enemies list of the Jacobins and their allies were organized religion and the family, institutions in which the moral values of traditional society could be preserved and passed on outside the control of the leftist vanguard.

Wow. What hogwash. The deviation from the actual truth of the matter--pretty close to 100%, I'd say--is astonishing. If the Democratic Convention is any gauge, liberals aren't very much interested in social issues at all--but they are obsessed by the frightening economic conditionss we're facing right now. (Mr. Bell might consider taking a gander at the front page of the paper today--6.1% unemployment, the costly collapse of Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac.) They are concerned about making the tax code as progressive as it was during the Clinton boom, and also about rebuilding the country's infrastructure, finding new jobs in alternative energy industries and making health insurance available to all Americans. You may feel positive or negative about their solutions, but that's what liberals care about.

Then there's this:

From the instant of Palin's designation on Friday, August 29, the American left went into a collective mass seizure from which it shows no sign of emerging. The left blogosphere and elite media have, for the moment, joined forces and become indistinguishable from each other, and from the supermarket tabloids, in their desire to find and use anything that will criminalize and/or humiliate Palin and her family. In sharp contrast to the yearlong restraint shown toward truthful reports about John Edwards's affair, bizarre rumors have been reported as news, and, according to McCain campaign director Steve Schmidt, nationally known members of the elite media have besieged him with preposterous demands.

Again, hogwash. The vast bulk of mainstream media reporting has been about Palin's record as a public servant and her personal beliefs as a politician. The tabloid media are treating her precisely as the tabloid media treat everybody. Steve Schmidt has done a brilliant--fabulously dishonest--job of setting up straw men, but it's a smokescreen to hide the fact that McCain rushed into this choice and didn't vet her properly. All these vast requests for personal information about Palin's family have produced--what? No major news outlet has gone with the various personal rumors that Schmidt is trying to promote. Only Sally Quinn and a few others raised the question of whether Palin should be home taking care of the children--although when the noted feminist Rudy Giuliani made that a part of his speech, the cable networks suddenly took it up, in their reliably Pavlovian fashion.

Maybe I'm getting old, maybe it's that I've seen this act so often before, maybe it's that the people I talk to when I go out on the road really are having a harder time paying for things like health care, gasoline and college tuition, but I'm finding the Republican attempts to derail the conversation from the actual state of the country really depressing and disgraceful this year. They practice Orwellian politics of the crudest sort. They are trying to sell a big lie--that the election is about the social issues of the 1960s, or Barack Obama's patriotism or his eloquence, or the "angry left," when it's really about turning toward a more moderate path after the ideological radicalism and malfeasance of the past eight years.

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/09..._the_econo.html

[IAMX 3,055]

Actually, Bell is kind of right. I do want to see the religious institution put forth unto the non-religious torn apart. I refuse to live my life under religious principles, and I'm sure today gays are feeling the same way. Wasn't long ago that women and blacks were feeling quite similar.

At least, if you consider who's religion indeed that people in this country have been suffering under, and who it benefits most. Let's see.

Didn't benefit women. Subservient to white man. Didn't benefit blacks. Subservient to white man. And still doesn't benefit gays, because religious people (white man pushing the hardest) want to be judgmental about the private life of two gay people who are in love with one another, and define "marriage" for someone else based upon such religious principles. Japanese internment camps? Pushed by white male xenophobes. Anti-atheist/agnostic "Red Scare" which helped push a "God" on the currency (for good) and pledge/U.S. motto in the 50s? Alas, yes, white man yet again, pushing religious principles upon others, and even today perpetuating the Mexican scare (has anyone seen something more funny and pathetic than the "Minute Men" of late?), the Gay scare, the Muslim/Arab scare, and so forth. Seems white religious man is scared of a lot of things. No sense in scared people run things, because they make the most uneducated mistakes and are the worst leaders. No better proof of that today than Bush's "axis of evil" #######, Iraq #### up, pissing off quite a bit of the world, taking a ####### on the constitution, namely toward speech, protest, and oversight (three branches of government, separation of powers), push to prevent civil rights as a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage (has anyone yet seen an amendment DENYING rights by exclusivity?), and the list goes on.

Damn. It sucks sometimes to be white.

[Heracles 417]

Actually, Bell is kind of right. I do want to see the religious institution put forth unto the non-religious torn apart. I refuse to live my life under religious principles, and I'm sure today gays are feeling the same way. Wasn't long ago that women and blacks were feeling quite similar.

At least, if you consider who's religion indeed that people in this country have been suffering under, and who it benefits most. Let's see.

Didn't benefit women. Subservient to white man. Didn't benefit blacks. Subservient to white man. And still doesn't benefit gays, because religious people (white man pushing the hardest) want to be judgmental about the private life of two gay people who are in love with one another, and define "marriage" for someone else based upon such religious principles. Japanese internment camps? Pushed by white male xenophobes. Anti-atheist/agnostic "Red Scare" which helped push a "God" on the currency (for good) and pledge/U.S. motto in the 50s? Alas, yes, white man yet again, pushing religious principles upon others, and even today perpetuating the Mexican scare (has anyone seen something more funny and pathetic than the "Minute Men" of late?), the Gay scare, the Muslim/Arab scare, and so forth. Seems white religious man is scared of a lot of things. No sense in scared people run things, because they make the most uneducated mistakes and are the worst leaders. No better proof of that today than Bush's "axis of evil" #######, Iraq #### up, pissing off quite a bit of the world, taking a ####### on the constitution, namely toward speech, protest, and oversight (three branches of government, separation of powers), push to prevent civil rights as a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage (has anyone yet seen an amendment DENYING rights by exclusivity?), and the list goes on.

Damn. It sucks sometimes to be white.

Yes white man is to blame for everything. You may want to read up on the best scientific, medical, engineering discoveries and inventions and see which demographic discovered the majority of them. You may want to look up who runs the most successful cities in the world. You may also want to look at what has become of the majority of African cities handed back to Africans from European countries. You may also want to look at who makes up the majority of Ghettos in the United States and who is more likely to commit a crime and murder others. As a Caucasian I am extremely proud of our exponential accomplishments.

I could rebut every point but prefer to stick to race considering this is a never ending issue in the United States. I do find those who are apparently the so-called "educated American type" accuse someone white of being racist yet naively turn a blind eye to minorities who are racists; who are, if not more so, than someone white. But hey, as long as someone racist is not white then racism does not apply to them. Or racist comments from minorities are just so-called isolated incidents. This indirect concept of racism, which only applies to white males, is something I have only learned of since moving to the United States. Certainly not the norm abroad.

It is this sort of ####### that has kept America down post 60's. Where the country has become embroiled and fixated with rights issues rather than raising living standards, dealing with poverty, reducing the ridiculous crime rate and so forth. That is, stuff that most other OECD nations focus on; rather than whether something is "unconstitutional" or civil rights for child molesters.

PS I think you have been watching a bit too much of Bill Maher.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Aficionado

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Quite simply - "Abroad" doesn't have the large, politically active religious community that this country does.

[IAMX 3,055]

Yes white man is to blame for everything. You may want to read up on the best scientific, medical, engineering discoveries and inventions and see which demographic discovered the majority of them.

All across the spectrum. Whites, Jews, Asians, etc. And that's this country alone. Science (which includes engineering and medical discoveries) is a collaborative effort.

You may want to look up who runs the most successful cities in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Mineta

San Jose, one of the most successful cities in the world (doesn't get the Capital of Silicon Valley name for no reason), has had Mayors across the spectrum, but none with as much acclamation as Norman Mineta, a Japanese person.

Ironically, his parents were thrown into internment camps by, guess who? WHITE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.

Wups.

You may also want to look at who makes up the majority of Ghettos in the United States and who is more likely to commit a crime and murder others.

Ironically, in those same "ghettos", whites are as liable. It's environment, not race. Much like the uneducated environment of rural Texas, for example. I know first hand, I've been forced to visit family there.

As a Caucasian I am extremely proud of our exponential accomplishments.

I could rebut every point but prefer to stick to race considering this is a never ending issue in the United States. I do find those who are apparently the so-called "educated American type" accuse someone white of being racist yet naively turn a blind eye to minorities who are racists; who are, if not more so, than someone white. But hey, as long as someone racist is not white then racism does not apply to them. Or racist comments from minorities are just so-called isolated incidents. This indirect concept of racism, which only applies to white males, is something I have only learned of since moving to the United States. Certainly not the norm abroad.

That's probably because the United States isn't every country, and you have to conveniently (hey, look at that!) ignore all of the #### other races and people who aren't white male christians have had to endure, and continue to do so.

It is this sort of ####### that has kept America down post 60's. Where the country has become embroiled and fixated with rights issues rather than raising living standards, dealing with poverty, reducing the ridiculous crime rate and so forth. You know, stuff that most other OECD nations focus on.

There's really no true way to reduce crime rates to near-nothing so long as conservative white people want there to be tiered classes with an expanding gap between rich and poor. Poor areas are simply going to be known for crime so long as this stigma is present.

PS I think you have been watching a bit too much of Bill Maher.

Haven't in several months, but hell, Bill Maher at least doesn't have his head up his ###. He's a guy who is willing to look rationally at most issues, and criticize people from his own party (Democrats), and more than a slap on the wrist. That, I can respect. Someone who can look at themselves and say, "I ###### up", and look at someone they support and say, "I was wrong". I find that to be a good person to support, rather than a staunch idiot who wants to take stupid positions constantly and never back down.

Edited September 8, 2008 by SRVT

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I scratch my head at the assertion about the "white man" is responsible for the current state of technology. Not that its strictly untrue of course (though as SRVT indicates - its not quite so simple) - but when you make arguments like that you run dangerously close to actual racism - implying that other ethnicities are somehow deficient when it comes to intelligence.

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that Europe cemented its power and influence and then lorded over the rest of the world with huge armies. Africa was ravaged by at least 3 European imperial powers... If they'd been left alone to their own devices I dare say that things would have turned out differently.

[Heracles 417]

All across the spectrum. Whites, Jews, Asians, etc. And that's this country alone. Science (which includes engineering and medical discoveries) is a collaborative effort.

San Jose, one of the most successful cities in the world (doesn't get the Capital of Silicon Valley name for no reason), has had Mayors across the spectrum, but none with as much acclamation as Norman Mineta, a Japanese person.

Ironically, his parents were thrown into internment camps by, guess who? WHITE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.

Wups.

Ironically, in those same "ghettos", whites are as liable. It's environment, not race. Much like the uneducated environment of rural Texas, for example. I know first hand, I've been forced to visit family there.

That's probably because the United States isn't every country, and you have to conveniently (hey, look at that!) ignore all of the #### other races and people who aren't white male christians have had to endure, and continue to do so.

There's really no true way to reduce crime rates to near-nothing so long as conservative white people want there to be tiered classes with an expanding gap between rich and poor. Poor areas are simply going to be known for crime so long as this stigma is present.

Haven't in several months, but hell, Bill Maher at least doesn't have his head up his ###. He's a guy who is willing to look rationally at most issues, and criticize people from his own party (Democrats), and more than a slap on the wrist. That, I can respect. Someone who can look at themselves and say, "I ###### up", and look at someone they support and say, "I was wrong". I find that to be a good person to support, rather than a staunch idiot who wants to take stupid positions constantly and never back down.

San Jose. Lol. Delivering a few billionaires is not what makes a city. Why do you think so many rich American live abroad. There is a lot more to life than driving the latest 7 series BMW or building a 10,000 sq foot home. I thought you would have learned that by traveling to Europe.

Instead of dishing out this ridiculous whitey is to blame rhetoric, if you dislike white America so much why not move. That is what freedom is all about. Emigration is a concept many abroad are familiar with. Obviously not the case here.

There is nothing ironic about being thrown in concentration camp. Like most other races, he moved on and still loves this country rather than holding on to hatred. Let alone blaming someone else.

[IAMX 3,055]

San Jose. Lol. Delivering a few billionaires is not what makes a city.

Interesting. Being someone who's from San Jose, the only billionaires I ever met were the founders of Google who I used to work for.

There is a lot more to life than driving the latest 7 series BMW or building a 10,000 sq foot home. I thought you would have learned that by traveling to Europe.

You might need to tell that to the many in this area driving Prius', Civic Hybrids, and other fuel efficient vehicles. Not that there's anything wrong with getting a sporty vehicle if you can actually afford it.

Being a large city, there's very little room for 10,000sq ft homes, except in the small rich area of Saratoga.

Instead of dishing out this ridiculous whitey is to blame rhetoric, if you dislike white America so much why not move.

Ah yes, typical conservative babble about criticism = hate. Boy, you were sure trained well. If you dislike criticism of this country why don't you move? Last I checked, it's part of living in a country that you suggest freedom is all about. --v

That is what freedom is all about.

In-######-deed.

There is nothing ironic about being thrown in concentration camp. Like most other races, he moved on and still loves this country rather than holding on to hatred. Let alone blaming someone else.

Well, if white religious nuts weren't still trying to push their religious ####### on others (you did notice the part of current events I mentioned, or not, I guess, too busy being defensive), that would indeed simply be a lesson of the past and be part of the past. However, it is not, so, too bad. No one else did these things, time to take a lesson from history, and move past it, and the first way is to start doing things differently. Until then, my fellow white religious man gets the blame he deserves.

Or maybe if white religious man doesn't deserve the credit for these extremely notable historic events I mentioned in my first post, explain to me who other than them was at fault.

Edited September 8, 2008 by SRVT

[Heracles 417]

I scratch my head at the assertion about the "white man" is responsible for the current state of technology. Not that its strictly untrue of course (though as SRVT indicates - its not quite so simple) - but when you make arguments like that you run dangerously close to actual racism - implying that other ethnicities are somehow deficient when it comes to intelligence.

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that Europe cemented its power and influence and then lorded over the rest of the world with huge armies. Africa was ravaged by at least 3 European imperial powers... If they'd been left alone to their own devices I dare say that things would have turned out differently.

Therefore it is obviously acceptable to accuse someone white of basically being the root of all evil. Yet perceived as being racist when discussing Caucasians achievements. Therefore it is also okay for certain races in America to beat on about their achievements while the contrary for anyone Caucasian?

Historically imperialistic European powers are not to blame for the continued violence in that region. That is just a cop out. Same way segregation and slavery is not responsible for the multiple shootings in NW and NE Washington DC, this weekend alone. For the death of an 8 month old baby might I add. Killed by a drive by in the street.

This attitude is the reason why so many problems still exist. It is the same as blaming a rape victim for looking to provocative, rather than punishing the rapist.

[HAL 9000 96]

I think someone still needs a lesson in Cause and Effect to be able to avoid making more boring and repetitive generalizations.

[IAMX 3,055]

I scratch my head at the assertion about the "white man" is responsible for the current state of technology. Not that its strictly untrue of course (though as SRVT indicates - its not quite so simple) - but when you make arguments like that you run dangerously close to actual racism - implying that other ethnicities are somehow deficient when it comes to intelligence.

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that Europe cemented its power and influence and then lorded over the rest of the world with huge armies. Africa was ravaged by at least 3 European imperial powers... If they'd been left alone to their own devices I dare say that things would have turned out differently.

Therefore it is obviously acceptable to accuse someone white of basically being the root of all evil. Yet perceived as being racist when discussing Caucasians achievements. Therefore it is also okay for certain races in America to beat on about their achievements while the contrary for anyone Caucasian?

Historically imperialistic European powers are not to blame for the continued violence in that region. That is just a cop out. Same way segregation and slavery is not responsible for the multiple shootings in NW and NE Washington DC, this weekend alone. For the death of an 8 month old baby might I add. Killed by a drive by in the street.

This attitude is the reason why so many problems still exist. It is the same as blaming a rape victim for looking to provocative, rather than punishing the rapist.

Well, I would suggest that surviving internment camps and slavery is an achievement. Is enslaving them an achievement?

I would say that gays getting married is an achievement, because of what they have to fight to get there. Preventing them from marrying is not an achievement.

And your analogy works, in the case that blacks were the victim, and whites were the rapist. Replace that with gays, or Japanese, or any other part I suggested earlier. And punishing the rapist is exactly what's being done, and continuing to do so while this sort of #### continues to happen in this country, perpetuated by white religious man. So you should have no problem with it. But, oh, that's right, being defensive over race because you happen to obviously be white and this country has a habit of attacking the poor white man who's had it soooo rough.

[Heracles 417]

Interesting. Being someone who's from San Jose, the only billionaires I ever met were the founders of Google who I used to work for.

Being a large city, there's very little room for 10,000sq ft homes, except in the small rich area of Saratoga.

San Jose is nothing special at all. Maybe you need to travel to Melbourne and Sydney and then tell me what you think of San Jose.

Ah yes, typical conservative babble about criticism = hate. Boy, you were sure trained well. If you dislike criticism of this country why don't you move? Last I checked, it's part of living in a country that you suggest freedom is all about. --v

Not the case at all. This is the norm amongst so many groups here in America. Fair enough when it comes to difference in political views or how things should be run but when someone simply cannot stand the majority of people in a nation, then yes they should move. Unfortunately for you, the 200,000,000 people who live in middle America are not changing any time soon to suit your views.

Well, if white religious nuts weren't still trying to push their religious ####### on others (you did notice the part of current events I mentioned, or not, I guess, too busy being defensive), that would indeed simply be a lesson of the past and be part of the past. However, it is not, so, too bad. No one else did these things, time to take a lesson from history, and move past it, and the first way is to start doing things differently. Until then, my fellow white religious man gets the blame he deserves.

What about pushing atheism on others? Believe it or not atheism is a belief in itself. So why should it be pushed, which it is, on others.

"My fellow" hey. So effectively not you but anyone else white.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm not sure I understand why it is that you insist on crediting a race for the technological and social achievements of an entire civilization. We live in an inclusive, mult-racial society that has reaped the benefits of 4 thousand years of civilization.

And yes - imperial expansion into Africa went on well into the early 20th century. That continent has been effectively under the heel of European civilizations all the way back to Roman times. So yes there certainly are clear connections between the past and the present. If you want to deny those connections - that's up to you.

Once again - neither I or anyone else here has ever said that slavery and segregation are excuses for modern day violence. Simply that the legacy of old policies has a continuing impact on socio-economic conditions in this country. Were it not for those conditions - there would be less crime.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think someone still needs a lesson in Cause and Effect to be able to avoid making more boring and repetitive generalizations.

Its just tiresome to be honest - whatever you say he'll read as excuse.

However here's a simpler example.

You're a farmer. You farm the #### out of your field without giving the soil a chance to recover. 5 years later you still can't grow crops there. Coincidence?

[Heracles 417]

Well, I would suggest that surviving internment camps and slavery is an achievement. Is enslaving them an achievement?

I would say that gays getting married is an achievement, because of what they have to fight to get there. Preventing them from marrying is not an achievement.

And your analogy works, in the case that blacks were the victim, and whites were the rapist. Replace that with gays, or Japanese, or any other part I suggested earlier. And punishing the rapist is exactly what's being done, and continuing to do so while this sort of #### continues to happen in this country, perpetuated by white religious man. So you should have no problem with it. But, oh, that's right, being defensive over race because you happen to obviously be white and this country has a habit of attacking the poor white man who's had it soooo rough.

I am not interested in rights issues. What the gays do is none of my business, unless it affects me. If someone is gay and chooses to live a gay lifestyle good for them. And yes I am religious and a conservative.

Certain groups in this country are obsessed with rights and whether something is constitutional. Where has it gotten you guys. Living standards dropping rapidly. Education performance dropping rapidly. Poverty rising, Cities that look like those of a third world nation. Infrastructure that is crumbling. Crime that is prevalent in most communities, while hidden from others; falsely giving them the security that they are safe. The list goes on.

Yet your answer is 'educated' answer and solution is blame whitey.