Anybody watching the RNC?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

While it might appear quite logically correct to suggest that drilling will lower prices (and I think this is perhaps where John McCain's politics are easier to sell to the public than Obamas) - the reality isn't quite so cut and dried. Supply and demand does indeed impact prices - but a lot hinges on oil-traders and speculators who assess risk based on the current world situation. I used to work for BP back in London and on the trading floor there it was interesting to see what impact say a terrorist bombing in Azerbaijan would have on prices. So it has to do with Geopolitics as well.

Specifically some of the impacts we've felt in recent years have to do with instability in the ME. The war in Iraq didn't exactly help matters if you consider that that production there was all but shut down during the war (which of course feeds into supply and demand) and the oil companies are only just now returning.

I am not understanding how what you wrote proves the prices won't go down...if that's what you were trying to say? We wouldn't be dealing the the oil traders as much if we had more of our own oil...which would mean less tension for us and less caring about how tension in the ME will affect our oil prices. How would this not help prices?

I'm not saying it wouldn't lower prices - just that the current problems aren't exclusively to do with supply.

But there's also a cost barrier to consider as well - I don't think people realise how massively expensive oil exploration actually is. Its been said that the benefits from drilling won't have an impact for about 10 years - but this is also the time-frame in which the oil corp begins to recover its outlay costs. Basically a lot of up-front expense - and you don't see profits for years.

If you're looking at your bottom line - exploration of completely new fields isn't the attractive prospect that it might appear.

I mean... given that we supposedly live in a free market, there's no reason for the oil company to cut back on record profits just because people want more oil.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Paul Daniels

[GaryC 7]

While it might appear quite logically correct to suggest that drilling will lower prices (and I think this is perhaps where John McCain's politics are easier to sell to the public than Obamas) - the reality isn't quite so cut and dried. Supply and demand does indeed impact prices - but a lot hinges on oil-traders and speculators who assess risk based on the current world situation. I used to work for BP back in London and on the trading floor there it was interesting to see what impact say a terrorist bombing in Azerbaijan would have on prices. So it has to do with Geopolitics as well.

Specifically some of the impacts we've felt in recent years have to do with instability in the ME. The war in Iraq didn't exactly help matters if you consider that that production there was all but shut down during the war (which of course feeds into supply and demand) and the oil companies are only just now returning.

I am not understanding how what you wrote proves the prices won't go down...if that's what you were trying to say? We wouldn't be dealing the the oil traders as much if we had more of our own oil...which would mean less tension for us and less caring about how tension in the ME will affect our oil prices. How would this not help prices?

The political sides have chosen their paths for getting us out of the oil mess. At that point all logic goes out the window. The dems are going to try to convince us that more oil now or in the future isn't going to help. They are tied to this line of reasoning. It's a good thing that it's intuitive that more of a product means lower prices. With a platform of drilling, nuclear, NG and a push for renewable energy the reps have the clear edge. Let them continue to try and tell us that drilling won't help.

[chri'stina 190]

While it might appear quite logically correct to suggest that drilling will lower prices (and I think this is perhaps where John McCain's politics are easier to sell to the public than Obamas) - the reality isn't quite so cut and dried. Supply and demand does indeed impact prices - but a lot hinges on oil-traders and speculators who assess risk based on the current world situation. I used to work for BP back in London and on the trading floor there it was interesting to see what impact say a terrorist bombing in Azerbaijan would have on prices. So it has to do with Geopolitics as well.

Specifically some of the impacts we've felt in recent years have to do with instability in the ME. The war in Iraq didn't exactly help matters if you consider that that production there was all but shut down during the war (which of course feeds into supply and demand) and the oil companies are only just now returning.

I am not understanding how what you wrote proves the prices won't go down...if that's what you were trying to say? We wouldn't be dealing the the oil traders as much if we had more of our own oil...which would mean less tension for us and less caring about how tension in the ME will affect our oil prices. How would this not help prices?

I'm not saying it wouldn't lower prices - just that the current problems aren't exclusively to do with supply.

But there's also a cost barrier to consider as well - I don't think people realise how massively expensive oil exploration actually is. Its been said that the benefits from drilling won't have an impact for about 10 years - but this is also the time-frame in which the oil corp begins to recover its outlay costs. Basically a lot of up-front expense - and you don't see profits for years.

Yeah...but considering both candidates are offering promises for new or better energy sources, it's going to be expensive but it's going to have to happen anyway.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

While it might appear quite logically correct to suggest that drilling will lower prices (and I think this is perhaps where John McCain's politics are easier to sell to the public than Obamas) - the reality isn't quite so cut and dried. Supply and demand does indeed impact prices - but a lot hinges on oil-traders and speculators who assess risk based on the current world situation. I used to work for BP back in London and on the trading floor there it was interesting to see what impact say a terrorist bombing in Azerbaijan would have on prices. So it has to do with Geopolitics as well.

Specifically some of the impacts we've felt in recent years have to do with instability in the ME. The war in Iraq didn't exactly help matters if you consider that that production there was all but shut down during the war (which of course feeds into supply and demand) and the oil companies are only just now returning.

I am not understanding how what you wrote proves the prices won't go down...if that's what you were trying to say? We wouldn't be dealing the the oil traders as much if we had more of our own oil...which would mean less tension for us and less caring about how tension in the ME will affect our oil prices. How would this not help prices?

The political sides have chosen their paths for getting us out of the oil mess. At that point all logic goes out the window. The dems are going to try to convince us that more oil now or in the future isn't going to help. They are tied to this line of reasoning. It's a good thing that it's intuitive that more of a product means lower prices. With a platform of drilling, nuclear, NG and a push for renewable energy the reps have the clear edge. Let them continue to try and tell us that drilling won't help.

I didn't say it isn't going to help - just that the "drill, drill, drill" mantra doesn't seem keen to address fundamental practical barriers.

While it might appear quite logically correct to suggest that drilling will lower prices (and I think this is perhaps where John McCain's politics are easier to sell to the public than Obamas) - the reality isn't quite so cut and dried. Supply and demand does indeed impact prices - but a lot hinges on oil-traders and speculators who assess risk based on the current world situation. I used to work for BP back in London and on the trading floor there it was interesting to see what impact say a terrorist bombing in Azerbaijan would have on prices. So it has to do with Geopolitics as well.

Specifically some of the impacts we've felt in recent years have to do with instability in the ME. The war in Iraq didn't exactly help matters if you consider that that production there was all but shut down during the war (which of course feeds into supply and demand) and the oil companies are only just now returning.

I am not understanding how what you wrote proves the prices won't go down...if that's what you were trying to say? We wouldn't be dealing the the oil traders as much if we had more of our own oil...which would mean less tension for us and less caring about how tension in the ME will affect our oil prices. How would this not help prices?

I'm not saying it wouldn't lower prices - just that the current problems aren't exclusively to do with supply.

But there's also a cost barrier to consider as well - I don't think people realise how massively expensive oil exploration actually is. Its been said that the benefits from drilling won't have an impact for about 10 years - but this is also the time-frame in which the oil corp begins to recover its outlay costs. Basically a lot of up-front expense - and you don't see profits for years.

Yeah...but considering both candidates are offering promises for new or better energy sources, it's going to be expensive but it's going to have to happen anyway.

But why? Because people want it?

Corporations aren't beholden to the will of the public. They will drill those areas - but only when current sources are exhausted.

Essentially what's good for your wallet isn't good for theirs. If you're making record profits - why would you want to lower the price?

Ironically I don't agree with this - but its not too far removed from the Republican mantra of letting the market sort itself out. I mean... you can't have it both ways...

Edited September 4, 2008 by Paul Daniels

[SteveLaura 0]

Is it feasible that, within ten years, we have the beginnings of a new era in energy technology? What's preventing that? The "drill, drill, drill" mantra seems to me like saying "We need more hay" just before the first Model T rolls off the assembly line.

[IAMX 3,055]

The political sides have chosen their paths for getting us out of the oil mess. At that point all logic goes out the window. The dems are going to try to convince us that more oil now or in the future isn't going to help. They are tied to this line of reasoning. It's a good thing that it's intuitive that more of a product means lower prices. With a platform of drilling, nuclear, NG and a push for renewable energy the reps have the clear edge. Let them continue to try and tell us that drilling won't help.

Look, you make it political. It is pro-oil politicians suggesting this, and you're clearly agreeing with them due to politically driven motives, while economists logically conclude that it has no impact in the near and immediate future, and more than likely not enough to matter later on, as prices will be impacted too little to matter.

There's no way this country can be 100% energy independent staying with oil.

I would say your the one taking a leave from reality. Supply and demand is a pretty well established concept. Tell you what, if drilling our own oil will not change the price then why is it when a hurricane takes out our gulf rigs why does the price go up?

There is a little secret your overlooking. We have more oil in North America than the middle east has. All we need to do is get it.

Uh no, Gary, the secret is FEARS can rise prices, NOT supply and demand. Even before a hurricane strikes prices will rise. Some bombing overseas can happen and fears from that will raise prices. If there's one thing that the oil industry has exceeded well beyond it's the economic principles of supply and demand.

No matter though, the country has woken up to the fact that your side wants higher prices. That is why your against drilling. Your fighting a loosing battle.

There is already enough drilling in this country. Some of us are realistic in that MORE drilling is no solution whatsoever to a major oil problem that this country cannot produce enough of to make any significant impact on prices. In the short term, there is ZERO cents saved. In the long term, it's debatable. $0.06/gallon? $1.50/gallon? By the time you would see this investment, you would be well into your retired age. So no, this is no solution both short and long term.

The only problem with that is one political party, and yes, even some of another, have their head crammed up the oil industry's ### and are mouthpieces for them. Economic experts know that this is folly, which is why demand for alternative fuel sources have skyrocketed, and will continue doing so for the foreseeable future.

[GaryC 7]

Is it feasible that, within ten years, we have the beginnings of a new era in energy technology? What's preventing that? The "drill, drill, drill" mantra seems to me like saying "We need more hay" just before the first Model T rolls off the assembly line.

So you are saying that we need higher oil prices. Thanks for clearing that up.

The political sides have chosen their paths for getting us out of the oil mess. At that point all logic goes out the window. The dems are going to try to convince us that more oil now or in the future isn't going to help. They are tied to this line of reasoning. It's a good thing that it's intuitive that more of a product means lower prices. With a platform of drilling, nuclear, NG and a push for renewable energy the reps have the clear edge. Let them continue to try and tell us that drilling won't help.

Look, you make it political. It is pro-oil politicians suggesting this, and you're clearly agreeing with them due to politically driven motives, while economists logically conclude that it has no impact in the near and immediate future, and more than likely not enough to matter later on, as prices will be impacted too little to matter.

There's no way this country can be 100% energy independent staying with oil.

I would say your the one taking a leave from reality. Supply and demand is a pretty well established concept. Tell you what, if drilling our own oil will not change the price then why is it when a hurricane takes out our gulf rigs why does the price go up?

There is a little secret your overlooking. We have more oil in North America than the middle east has. All we need to do is get it.

Uh no, Gary, the secret is FEARS can rise prices, NOT supply and demand. Even before a hurricane strikes prices will rise. Some bombing overseas can happen and fears from that will raise prices. If there's one thing that the oil industry has exceeded well beyond it's the economic principles of supply and demand.

No matter though, the country has woken up to the fact that your side wants higher prices. That is why your against drilling. Your fighting a loosing battle.

There is already enough drilling in this country. Some of us are realistic in that MORE drilling is no solution whatsoever to a major oil problem that this country cannot produce enough of to make any significant impact on prices. In the short term, there is ZERO cents saved. In the long term, it's debatable. $0.06/gallon? $1.50/gallon? By the time you would see this investment, you would be well into your retired age. So no, this is no solution both short and long term.

The only problem with that is one political party, and yes, even some of another, have their head crammed up the oil industry's ### and are mouthpieces for them. Economic experts know that this is folly, which is why demand for alternative fuel sources have skyrocketed, and will continue doing so for the foreseeable future.

Please keep up that line of argument. It's a losing one with the American people. Thank you for that gift.

[SteveLaura 0]

Is it feasible that, within ten years, we have the beginnings of a new era in energy technology? What's preventing that? The "drill, drill, drill" mantra seems to me like saying "We need more hay" just before the first Model T rolls off the assembly line.

So you are saying that we need higher oil prices. Thanks for clearing that up.

What?

Is gas the only fuel that can start a car engine? In ten years, we could have the start of efficient electric cars and the oil that we've just then started to pump would be largely moot. The idea that the god OIL is the answer to everything seems, like I said, as outmoded as the dependence on hay and a good shovel.

Edited September 4, 2008 by SteveLaura

[chri'stina 190]

Is it feasible that, within ten years, we have the beginnings of a new era in energy technology? What's preventing that? The "drill, drill, drill" mantra seems to me like saying "We need more hay" just before the first Model T rolls off the assembly line.

Well I see what you mean...but the hay could have been used for something else, right?

And with what Paul Daniels wrote...I guess one reason for the corp's to drill is knowing that people are buying less gas these days due to the prices and people will buy more if they start drilling. But then how are either Obama or McCain actually going to get anything done when they don't control the market? That is a good question. I think they probably have to offer incentives to companies who do these things. (if that's been talked about by them already, I haven't really paid attention:P).

[IAMX 3,055]

Please keep up that line of argument. It's a losing one with the American people. Thank you for that gift.

Is that why hybrids are selling nicely, and projected leases, and ultimately, sales, for HCV's and BEV's are skyrocketing?

Which American people are you talking about? Because plenty are speaking with their wallets, since the federal government won't do ####.

Even companies like Google and Microsoft are assisting employees in getting alternative sources of fuel, including hybrids.

It's great to make ####### up about losing one with the American people when they're buying these, Gary. I guess you need to come down from fantasy land.

[GaryC 7]

Is it feasible that, within ten years, we have the beginnings of a new era in energy technology? What's preventing that? The "drill, drill, drill" mantra seems to me like saying "We need more hay" just before the first Model T rolls off the assembly line.

So you are saying that we need higher oil prices. Thanks for clearing that up.

What?

Is gas the only fuel that can start a car engine? In ten years, we could have the start of efficient electric cars and the oil that we've just then started to pump would be largely moot. The idea that the god OIL is the answer to everything seems, like I said, as the outmoded dependence on hay and a good shovel.

There is zero chance that we will break our need for oil in 10 years. It doesn't matter who is in charge. Our economy is just to tightly tied to it for it to happen that fast. We will at some point get away from it but in the mean time we still need cheap oil To ignore that will mean huge outlays for energy that will reduce our ability to develop new energy sources. Just look at what $4 gas has done to the economy. What do you think $10 gas would do? It would bankrupt us to the point that we cannot afford to fully fund alternatives.

Please keep up that line of argument. It's a losing one with the American people. Thank you for that gift.

Is that why hybrids are selling nicely, and projected leases, and ultimately, sales, for HCV's and BEV's are skyrocketing?

Which American people are you talking about? Because plenty are speaking with their wallets, since the federal government won't do ####.

Even companies like Google and Microsoft are assisting employees in getting alternative sources of fuel, including hybrids.

It's great to make ####### up about losing one with the American people when they're buying these, Gary. I guess you need to come down from fantasy land.

That went right over your head. Go ahead, keep saying we don't need to drill. It helps our side so much.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Rove vs. Rove.

[GaryC 7]

Rove vs. Rove.

Give it up Steve. The diamond you thought you found is really a #######.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Is it feasible that, within ten years, we have the beginnings of a new era in energy technology? What's preventing that? The "drill, drill, drill" mantra seems to me like saying "We need more hay" just before the first Model T rolls off the assembly line.

Well I see what you mean...but the hay could have been used for something else, right?

And with what Paul Daniels wrote...I guess one reason for the corp's to drill is knowing that people are buying less gas these days due to the prices and people will buy more if they start drilling. But then how are either Obama or McCain actually going to get anything done when they don't control the market? That is a good question. I think they probably have to offer incentives to companies who do these things. (if that's been talked about by them already, I haven't really paid attention:P).

What I'm saying is that there isn't really any incentive you can give them to do this - right now they're making record profits. Anything that increases the overall supply cuts into their bottom line profits. From a purely capitalist point of view it just doesn't benefit them to see the price lowered - regardless of what the voting public may want.

[HAL 9000 96]

Drill baby drill? I only caught part of Giuliani's speech. Did someone yell that from the crowd (I use crowd in the loosest sense of the term)?

Drilling is the best way to lower the price of oil. A majority of Americans understand that basic fact. What is Obama's plan? Tune up your car and inflate your tires.

And how will that actually lower the price? I'm curious.

Given that its no secret there's not enough and not fast enough amounts to process to make a significant impact any time in the near future. Unless of course, you deny that little tidbit of REALITY.

I would say your the one taking a leave from reality. Supply and demand is a pretty well established concept. Tell you what, if drilling our own oil will not change the price then why is it when a hurricane takes out our gulf rigs why does the price go up?

There is a little secret your overlooking. We have more oil in North America than the middle east has. All we need to do is get it.

No matter though, the country has woken up to the fact that your side wants higher prices. That is why your against drilling. Your fighting a loosing battle.

And you are not answering the question. Unless, of course, you are advocating reducing our demand in the market by about 90% to levels that our supply can produce... in what was it? 7 to 8 years again?

Sure... OIL SHALE. That is different. Is that drilling? No, no its not. We've previously run over the numbers from the quite realistic US Government, unless you are calling them liars and somewhat detached from reality... but you've been caught in this fallacy before and it can be proven to you once again if need be.