Creationism - ID

[Peikko 1,575]

Ok, stop larking around, seriously, 27%? 1-5% I could understand, but seriously 1/3 of the people who lurk on this board? Scary #### dudes, scary ####.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Assuming people read Intelligent Design from Creationism - yes it is pretty scary.

Creationism is a theological idea more than anything - ID is the pseudo science, where they try to use the scientific method to disprove evolution.

[PlatyPius 5]

Ok, stop larking around, seriously, 27%? 1-5% I could understand, but seriously 1/3 of the people who lurk on this board? Scary #### dudes, scary ####.

I......I see stupid people!

[chri'stina 190]

Ok, stop larking around, seriously, 27%? 1-5% I could understand, but seriously 1/3 of the people who lurk on this board? Scary #### dudes, scary ####.

I doubt it's only lurkers. It's because they are tired of defending themselves against the insults and they don't feel like arguing. I know that's why I didn't bother commenting. (until now). I am not a lurker. I am not going to discuss this issue any further in this thread b/c there is no point to it. People who have been around awhile know pretty much what I believe and see me write all the time. If they want to think I am an idiot, fine. People who think that will keep thinking that and those who don't think that hopefully still don't. I think some people are idiots too.

[PlatyPius 5]

Ok, stop larking around, seriously, 27%? 1-5% I could understand, but seriously 1/3 of the people who lurk on this board? Scary #### dudes, scary ####.

I doubt it's only lurkers. It's because they are tired of defending themselves against the insults and they don't feel like arguing. I know that's why I didn't bother commenting. (until now). I am not a lurker. I am not going to discuss this issue any further in this thread b/c there is no point to it. People who have been around awhile know pretty much what I believe and see me write all the time. If they want to think I am an idiot, fine. People who think that will keep thinking that and those who don't think that hopefully still don't. I think some people are idiots too.

Ya know what? You're right, and I apologize.

[Peikko 1,575]

Ok, stop larking around, seriously, 27%? 1-5% I could understand, but seriously 1/3 of the people who lurk on this board? Scary #### dudes, scary ####.

I doubt it's only lurkers. It's because they are tired of defending themselves against the insults and they don't feel like arguing. I know that's why I didn't bother commenting. (until now). I am not a lurker. I am not going to discuss this issue any further in this thread b/c there is no point to it. People who have been around awhile know pretty much what I believe and see me write all the time. If they want to think I am an idiot, fine. People who think that will keep thinking that and those who don't think that hopefully still don't. I think some people are idiots too.

"Lurking on this board" Brit slang, not intended as some insult.

Really, these discussions don't go very far but I have yet to hear someone intelligently exlain these inconsistancies in the creation story. Of course, you personally are not obliged to say anything and that is fine but I sure wish someone would make a decent case for it and not simply chalk it down to god being god. That's a cop out to me.

Everyone should try to understand as much about life as possible and critical thinking should play a huge part in that understanding. It's not comfortable to question one's reality, and it's not comforting to realise that life is all there is, but it's not scary either and it is living life fully if you do face these questions head on.

However, it's up to each one of us to make our own decision about that. Personally, I enjoy a challenging discussion that tries to make sense of the opinions that people hold and really makes them think about why they hold certain notions, and what it really is about these notions that makes them hold onto them. I enjoy it, so I endevour to persue it. If that is seen as insulting then what can I say? It wasn't the intention of the exercise.

[Peikko 1,575]

Assuming people read Intelligent Design from Creationism - yes it is pretty scary.

Creationism is a theological idea more than anything - ID is the pseudo science, where they try to use the scientific method to disprove evolution.

Creationism to me is anyone who takes the genesis story as anything more than an allegorical story. The idea of a personal god is pretty anathama to me to be quite honest but that's me.

The idea that god had any role in the evolution of life on earth simply doensn't make any sense in terms of how one understands scientific realities, natural laws if one will. There is no way to make any sense of a being that can alter natural laws on a whim. That simply defies my understanding of observable reality. It's not like we have any evidence of these defiances either. None. Yet, I am supposed to deny what I observe and understand in favour of something that hasn't been observed, not even in terms of 'unexplained phenomen' because some books tell me to?

Not only that, these books are full of idiosyncracy, contradiction and what look to me like falsehoods, men living for 600+ years. However, I am supposed to suspend my doubts, my fears, my revulsions simply because these man made documents are the will of some non observable 'god'?

When I question why I am supposed to do this, I am either told that my questions are arrogant or hurtful? #######?

Edited September 4, 2008 by Madame Cleo

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Assuming people read Intelligent Design from Creationism - yes it is pretty scary.

Creationism is a theological idea more than anything - ID is the pseudo science, where they try to use the scientific method to disprove evolution.

Creationism to me is anyone who takes the genesis story as anything more than an allegorical story. The idea of a personal god is pretty anathama to me to be quite honest but that's me.

The idea that god had any role in the evolution of life on earth simply doensn't make any sense in terms of how one understands scientific realities, natural laws if one will. There is no way to make any sense of a being that can alter natural laws on a whim. That simply defies my understanding of observable reality. It's not like we have any evidence of these defiances either. None. Yet, I am supposed to deny what I observe and understand in favour of something that hasn't been observed, not even in terms of 'unexplained phenomen' because some books tell me to?

Not only that, these books are full of idiosyncracy, contradiction and what look to me like falsehoods, men living for 600+ years. However, I am supposed to suspend my doubts, my fears, my revulsions simply because these man made documents are the will of some non observable 'god'?

When I question why I am supposed to do this, I am either told that my questions are arrogant or hurtful? #######?

Well if you take the story completely literally you have to accept certain assumptions (including the one about the age of the Earth). Personally I do think there is a place for God - but only in terms of the Genesis story as allegory. There is a logical rationale for this - if you consider that the people 2000-4000 years ago were semi-barbaric at best. Assuming that the Bible was written (or dictated) by a higher power - it was appealing to the people in the language of that particular time, language that superstitious semi-barbaric people could relate to. People in the ancient world didn't have the capacity to understand modern science (certainly not genetics and quantum mechanics). Of course the big schism here is the persistence of mysticism over reason.

The issue of contention is that modern science has started to "cast doubt" on the verbatim words of the bible. We know that there are worlds beyond our own, we know that the scope of creation is much larger than is described in the Bible. We know that DNA exists and that life on this planet shares genetic characteristics, we know that life has adapted over time, and we know that there were creations living on the planet before man. There's not really much of a debate here - so its difficult to understand how Literal Creationists could exist in this day and age. It certainly isn't logical...

BTW - If you're really curious what others think you could check out the archive for some of the older threads on this topic - there's been a fair few.

[chri'stina 190]

Ok, stop larking around, seriously, 27%? 1-5% I could understand, but seriously 1/3 of the people who lurk on this board? Scary #### dudes, scary ####.

I doubt it's only lurkers. It's because they are tired of defending themselves against the insults and they don't feel like arguing. I know that's why I didn't bother commenting. (until now). I am not a lurker. I am not going to discuss this issue any further in this thread b/c there is no point to it. People who have been around awhile know pretty much what I believe and see me write all the time. If they want to think I am an idiot, fine. People who think that will keep thinking that and those who don't think that hopefully still don't. I think some people are idiots too.

"Lurking on this board" Brit slang, not intended as some insult.

Really, these discussions don't go very far but I have yet to hear someone intelligently exlain these inconsistancies in the creation story. Of course, you personally are not obliged to say anything and that is fine but I sure wish someone would make a decent case for it and not simply chalk it down to god being god. That's a cop out to me.

Everyone should try to understand as much about life as possible and critical thinking should play a huge part in that understanding. It's not comfortable to question one's reality, and it's not comforting to realise that life is all there is, but it's not scary either and it is living life fully if you do face these questions head on.

However, it's up to each one of us to make our own decision about that. Personally, I enjoy a challenging discussion that tries to make sense of the opinions that people hold and really makes them think about why they hold certain notions, and what it really is about these notions that makes them hold onto them. I enjoy it, so I endevour to persue it. If that is seen as insulting then what can I say? It wasn't the intention of the exercise.

If you are wondering how you are insulting, just read the post I quoted in my response. That's not insulting? hmm.

I am not going to discuss the subject of this thread but I will say that just because I said I don't want to discuss it here does not mean I don't question things in life and that I blindly follow everything I believe. I face questions head on all the time. I support critical thinking and not stereotyping. Maybe that should also apply to people who have a blanket opinion of Christians. I have taken part in many challenging discussions on VJ and am tired of it sometimes. I have been here for over 4 years now. I still do it at times but I get tired of the same old circular arguments and being someone who feels like I don't have a lot of people on my side of the debate about so many issues. I am able to stand on my own two feet to debate something but it can get old. I know who wants to respectfully discuss/debate and who wants to be condescending. I'd rather not try to debate with condescending people.

I also know what lurking means, and didn't take it as some horrible insult. But it's not just random people lurking around clicking "yes". It's possibly regular members who maybe didn't feel like getting into it. Like Paul Daniels said, if you wish to read a discussion on it I am sure you could find one in archives.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... there's been a fair few.

Understatement of the century!

[jundp 191]

I have to agree with Parivar on quite a few of her points. While the attacking me for my personal beliefs have been minimal, probably because I'm such a weirdo in that I'm very liberal in some areas while being rather conservative in personal issues, it does get old sometime.

I think it's a shame when Christians (or whatever group) who choose to share their ideas respectfully are constantly challenged or mocked. Platy, I know that you feel very strongly about your views and for the most part when it comes to interaction with you, I've found you to be respectful. PH you have been the same to me as well.

But I am a somewhat regular poster on here and maybe that's why? I'm not sure, but I understand what Parivar is saying that many people choose not to enter into a debate, because in the end, when it comes to issues of faith and spirituality we cannot give you the cold hard facts you desire. As a literature teacher I am well aware of many inconsistencies in the Bible. And I do not blindly follow without question. I would say that most "religiously conservative" posters on here don't. But constantly being asked to defend (even if it's a general request and not one directed at anyone specific) is frustrating. I don't ask non-believers to constantly justify their reasons, and even if they did, it would never change what I believe and I don't think they are stupid for their beliefs.

Somewhere along the line I lost my train of thought, but I'll stop now anyway.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... when it comes to issues of faith and spirituality we cannot give you the cold hard facts you desire.

That's precisely it.

You can't provide the cold, hard facts that are typically the product of the scientific process.

And yet, creationists insist on injecting their faith into science classrooms all over the nation.

That's the problem. If they kept their faith outside the realm of science, no one would care.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

... when it comes to issues of faith and spirituality we cannot give you the cold hard facts you desire.

That's precisely it.

You can't provide the cold, hard facts that are typically the product of the scientific process.

And yet, creationists insist on injecting their faith into science classrooms all over the nation.

That's the problem. If they kept their faith outside the realm of science, no one would care.

I tend to agree. There might be some misunderstanding going on here in terms of what individuals actually think - but as far as a national debate goes Creationism is largely understood in terms of controversies in some school districts where Intelligent Design was suggested as a credible alternative to evolution in biology classes.

[Cassie 8]

I am not going to discuss the subject of this thread but I will say that just because I said I don't want to discuss it here does not mean I don't question things in life and that I blindly follow everything I believe. I face questions head on all the time. I support critical thinking and not stereotyping. Maybe that should also apply to people who have a blanket opinion of Christians. I have taken part in many challenging discussions on VJ and am tired of it sometimes. I have been here for over 4 years now. I still do it at times but I get tired of the same old circular arguments and being someone who feels like I don't have a lot of people on my side of the debate about so many issues. I am able to stand on my own two feet to debate something but it can get old. I know who wants to respectfully discuss/debate and who wants to be condescending. I'd rather not try to debate with condescending people.

Once again Christina, you've captured pretty much what I have been thinking, particularly the bolded bits.

[Niels Bohr 72]

It's not attacking, it's defending the will of science exploration that is the problem. The bible limits our boundaries versus science which does not.

I'm quite surprise myself how many people aren't aware that everyday life is impossible without science.

Edited September 5, 2008 by consolemaster