Creationism - ID

[Peikko 1,575]

Which view of Creation are we talking about? Is it the idea that the Earth was created within a few thousand years ago in 144 hours?

FYI, not all Christians who take the Bible seriously (and not just in matters of "faith") hold to that understanding of the Genesis account of Creation. Personally, I don't think view does justice to the text. I don't think that the only options are either that interpretation of Genesis, or that Genesis is simply an allegory or myth.

I'm not religious and I don't think creationism is credible. Evolution just makes sense to me and I think the universe is such a huge place, which is still expanding, that if there was something out there creating things we'd be able to see it now. Instead, we just see galaxies doing what galaxies do...

That presupposes two things: One, that creation is still going on, and B, that God is a "something" in the universe that can be directly observed.

The Genesis story and in particular Adam and Eve don't make any sense not if you take it literally. Apparantly, god made Adam, then made Eve out of Adam, but then there are these random 'other people' who marry the offspring of this pair. Where did they come from? Who made them? Where these people self aware or where they naked? No explanations forthcoming.

Then of course there's a gamut of people who lived several hundred years. Is there one ancient skeleton of a man older than about 45? I've never heard it

And, so on ad infinitum.

If people want to believe in god so be it but don't push your values on the rest of us and suggest that they make sense. They don't.

They married their siblings.

Anyone who needs convincing of how whacked out this Creationist thing is should check out the Creationist Museum website. If I lived there - I'd probably go just for a laugh.

The Dinosaurs were apparently one of Adam and Eve's punishments for being thrown out of Eden.

I see they've got an exhibition to explain the various races of humanity - what's the betting that it'll be a sanitised retelling of the story of Shem, Japhet and Ham.

If anyone needs a better example of explicit racism in the Bible - check out the Curse of Ham. Essentially it suggests that the black races are degenerates, cursed by God. This was in fact one of the ideological justifications for slavery - it was very convenient that blacks came "Pre-dehumanized" in the Old Testament.

There is nothing in Genesis or any where else in the Bible to support the idea that the "Curse of Ham" had anything to do with being black.

If you'll believe literal Creationism (ie: the Bible story as true, unadulterated fact), then you'll believe ANYthing.

But you can't, if you're a Christian. Because the coming of Yeshua negated the Torah/OT. You can't believe any of that stuff. Sorry. No more stoning your children to death if they disobey, no more turning your daughters into whores, no more wrathful god, no more 10 Commandments, and no more creation myth.

[Peikko 1,575]

Things that exist do not have to be 'directly observed' but to exist they have to have a discernible influence. We can't 'see' gravity but we know that it exists and how this force works. It is predictable and the rules that govern gravity do not fluctuate so we can predict with absolute accuracy what effect it will have on any given object. God is really proven not to exist by the absence of any discernable influence that can't be explained by scientifically verifiable natural laws.

Are you really suggesting that creation isn't continuous and observable today? When did creation stop? If it's stopped how come we get a new flu each season?

Oops, that was all meant to be in one post. My post was referance to the part in the quote I bolded.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There is nothing in Genesis or any where else in the Bible to support the idea that the "Curse of Ham" had anything to do with being black.

Not "black" as we'd understand it today - but its still racial propaganda. Then of course it had more to do with the political situation between ancient Israel and its neighbouring rivals - specifically the Canaanites. Subsequently the meaning was altered as suited the needs of the times and used as a justification for slavery - by promoting the view that there was a biblical basis for justifying the enslavement of black Africans on the basis that they were somehow sub-human.

[Niels Bohr 72]

Madam Cleo,

If you and I were both opposite sexes, and not married, I'll marry you! Anyway, I love your reasoning.

I do like to reveal that fields are invisible in space or rather we cannot thoroughly explain it in detail of why it manipulates space. For example, electric and magnetic fields exists. We cannot see it or feel it, however, we know it's there. We could measure it, and control its power though.

It's a type of force that is invisible, and manipulates space in weird ways just like gravity manipulates time by slowing it down. These types of existence of an invisible fields opens up new field of physics that is at the top of many physicist list of priorities to get done. It's strange of a moving charge could induce a force that is perpendicular, and onto a different plane when it runs through a magnetic field. It's a strange phenonemon. Weird. Classical Physics kinda take it for granted. Quantum physics attempts to explain it, but, it doesn't do it quite well. Hopefully one day we'll understand how fields, space, and time are linked. Somebody at Harvard suggests Brahmanian plane or something to that extent to explain the forces.

[symbiosis 0]

this is for Gary:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7595441.stm

[PlatyPius 5]

The Genesis story and in particular Adam and Eve don't make any sense not if you take it literally. Apparantly, god made Adam, then made Eve out of Adam, but then there are these random 'other people' who marry the offspring of this pair. Where did they come from? Who made them? Where these people self aware or where they naked? No explanations forthcoming.

Then of course there's a gamut of people who lived several hundred years. Is there one ancient skeleton of a man older than about 45? I've never heard it

And, so on ad infinitum.

If people want to believe in god so be it but don't push your values on the rest of us and suggest that they make sense. They don't.

They married their siblings.

Cain killed Abel and was cast out of Eden. He wandered around, eventually coming to the Land of Nod; a place of Pagans. There, he married a local woman. He did NOT marry a sibling. He married one of "the Other People" - The people NOT created by Yahweh-god. The people who worshipped other gods, had their own creation stories, etc.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The Genesis story and in particular Adam and Eve don't make any sense not if you take it literally. Apparantly, god made Adam, then made Eve out of Adam, but then there are these random 'other people' who marry the offspring of this pair. Where did they come from? Who made them? Where these people self aware or where they naked? No explanations forthcoming.

Then of course there's a gamut of people who lived several hundred years. Is there one ancient skeleton of a man older than about 45? I've never heard it

And, so on ad infinitum.

If people want to believe in god so be it but don't push your values on the rest of us and suggest that they make sense. They don't.

They married their siblings.

Cain killed Abel and was cast out of Eden. He wandered around, eventually coming to the Land of Nod; a place of Pagans. There, he married a local woman. He did NOT marry a sibling. He married one of "the Other People" - The people NOT created by Yahweh-god. The people who worshipped other gods, had their own creation stories, etc.

Cain was also cursed by God and left with a mark - though its unclear what the nature of that actually was - though black skin and red hair have been suggested. BTW - This has also been used as a justification for slavery.

[Laura+Tom 2]

I recall an episode of Friends where Ross is trying to explain evolution to Phoebe as she says something to the effect that she doesn't believe in it. He even trys to show her fossils as he's a palentologist. Then she goes on to say someone must have put them there!

[Jenn! 918]

I recall an episode of Friends where Ross is trying to explain evolution to Phoebe as she says something to the effect that she doesn't believe in it. He even trys to show her fossils as he's a palentologist. Then she goes on to say someone must have put them there!

I remember that. "So now, the real question is, who put those fossils there, and why? "

[Scott & Lai 12]

The Genesis story and in particular Adam and Eve don't make any sense not if you take it literally. Apparantly, god made Adam, then made Eve out of Adam, but then there are these random 'other people' who marry the offspring of this pair. Where did they come from? Who made them? Where these people self aware or where they naked? No explanations forthcoming.

Then of course there's a gamut of people who lived several hundred years. Is there one ancient skeleton of a man older than about 45? I've never heard it

And, so on ad infinitum.

If people want to believe in god so be it but don't push your values on the rest of us and suggest that they make sense. They don't.

They married their siblings.

Cain killed Abel and was cast out of Eden. He wandered around, eventually coming to the Land of Nod; a place of Pagans. There, he married a local woman. He did NOT marry a sibling. He married one of "the Other People" - The people NOT created by Yahweh-god. The people who worshipped other gods, had their own creation stories, etc.

Where are you getting that? There is nothing in the Biblical account to suggest that the Other People, as you call them, were not created by Yaweh, so you must be referring to other sources.

[Peikko 1,575]

The Genesis story and in particular Adam and Eve don't make any sense not if you take it literally. Apparantly, god made Adam, then made Eve out of Adam, but then there are these random 'other people' who marry the offspring of this pair. Where did they come from? Who made them? Where these people self aware or where they naked? No explanations forthcoming.

Then of course there's a gamut of people who lived several hundred years. Is there one ancient skeleton of a man older than about 45? I've never heard it

And, so on ad infinitum.

If people want to believe in god so be it but don't push your values on the rest of us and suggest that they make sense. They don't.

They married their siblings.

Cain killed Abel and was cast out of Eden. He wandered around, eventually coming to the Land of Nod; a place of Pagans. There, he married a local woman. He did NOT marry a sibling. He married one of "the Other People" - The people NOT created by Yahweh-god. The people who worshipped other gods, had their own creation stories, etc.

Where are you getting that? There is nothing in the Biblical account to suggest that the Other People, as you call them, were not created by Yaweh, so you must be referring to other sources.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest the 'other people' where created by god, there is nothing to suggest the 'other people' ate from the tree of forbidden fruit (how could they, they had no access to Eden) so how exactly did these 'other people' think in terms of self awareness and all the other aspects of knowledge that were forbidden to 'eden man' by god and were the mainstay of 'the fall'?

There is nothing to suggest how or why these 'other' people origninated. In fact, these 'other' people just magically appear in the bible without any explanation and are somewhat inconvenient to creationists, aren't there?

If you are going to promote a theory, at least promote one that makes sense and doesn't have completely unexplained and unexplainable aspects to it where you have to shrug and say 'if it's not explained, god must have done it but doesn't want us to know how/why' or 'it's not important'.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

All of these things have been used to scapegoat minorities over the years - and justify repression against them.

[Peikko 1,575]

Which is ironic. Seeing as they are not contaminated with original sin, you'd have thought these were the 'chosen people'. However, be that as it may, evolution may not be a complete picture yet, but it certainly doesn't have any loose ends that are ignored in order to make the theory hold together. The 'other people' are a huge loose end and that's without the "Noah" complication.

[DeVile 0]

The Genesis story and in particular Adam and Eve don't make any sense not if you take it literally. Apparantly, god made Adam, then made Eve out of Adam, but then there are these random 'other people' who marry the offspring of this pair. Where did they come from? Who made them? Where these people self aware or where they naked? No explanations forthcoming.

Then of course there's a gamut of people who lived several hundred years. Is there one ancient skeleton of a man older than about 45? I've never heard it

And, so on ad infinitum.

If people want to believe in god so be it but don't push your values on the rest of us and suggest that they make sense. They don't.

They married their siblings.

Cain killed Abel and was cast out of Eden. He wandered around, eventually coming to the Land of Nod; a place of Pagans. There, he married a local woman. He did NOT marry a sibling. He married one of "the Other People" - The people NOT created by Yahweh-god. The people who worshipped other gods, had their own creation stories, etc.

Where are you getting that? There is nothing in the Biblical account to suggest that the Other People, as you call them, were not created by Yaweh, so you must be referring to other sources.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.

21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

"Outside the presence of the Lord" would seem to imply that the Land of Nod wants nothing to do with this egotistical little Yahweh creature who, while only having the garden of Eden, wants to claim ownership of the entire universe. Yet, in the first chapter of Genesis, Yahweh-god talks of "we" and "us" in regard to godS.

I think that covers what PlatyPius was talking about.

Edited September 3, 2008 by DeVile

[Peikko 1,575]

I think this poll supports the need for better science education in schools. 25% support as a credible alternative to evolution? That's mind boggling.