Bill Clinton Did It!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Afraid it takes more than fancy speeches to impress me (though on that score - GWB is perhaps the worst, most inarticulate public speaker in recent years).

I just don't get this unbridled optimism that somehow the Democrats are going to bowl over all opposition and stroll into the White House in November.

Ain't gonna happen...

[tmma 467]

Afraid it takes more than fancy speeches to impress me (though on that score - GWB is perhaps the worst, most inarticulate public speaker in recent years).

I just don't get this unbridled optimism that somehow the Democrats are going to bowl over all opposition and stroll into the White House in November.

Ain't gonna happen...

Agree.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Afraid it takes more than fancy speeches to impress me (though on that score - GWB is perhaps the worst, most inarticulate public speaker in recent years).

I just don't get this unbridled optimism that somehow the Democrats are going to bowl over all opposition and stroll into the White House in November.

Ain't gonna happen...

Agree.

Given recent poll results showing McCain level or slightly ahead of Obama - I'd have thought there'd be a return to reality after the jingoism during the nomination.

By any measure it looks like a slim victory for McCain is in the works, certainly not the landslide the Democrats were hoping for.

[jom 4]

" I did not have sexual relationship with that woman"

[tmma 467]

Afraid it takes more than fancy speeches to impress me (though on that score - GWB is perhaps the worst, most inarticulate public speaker in recent years).

I just don't get this unbridled optimism that somehow the Democrats are going to bowl over all opposition and stroll into the White House in November.

Ain't gonna happen...

Agree.

Given recent poll results showing McCain level or slightly ahead of Obama - I'd have thought there'd be a return to reality after the jingoism during the nomination.

By any measure it looks like a slim victory for McCain is in the works, certainly not the landslide the Democrats were hoping for.

Yes. The Clinton's had to provide more in the way of sincere support for BO- and they said some of the right things, but it was just words!

Not much was said out BO actual qualities and qualifications to be prez, but more a sideways " my wife STILL has my support-she is MY candidate, but we are uniting wether we REALLY believe BO can do it or not...Anything to beat the Repubs..." was my take on it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Afraid it takes more than fancy speeches to impress me (though on that score - GWB is perhaps the worst, most inarticulate public speaker in recent years).

I just don't get this unbridled optimism that somehow the Democrats are going to bowl over all opposition and stroll into the White House in November.

Ain't gonna happen...

Agree.

Given recent poll results showing McCain level or slightly ahead of Obama - I'd have thought there'd be a return to reality after the jingoism during the nomination.

By any measure it looks like a slim victory for McCain is in the works, certainly not the landslide the Democrats were hoping for.

Yes. The Clinton's had to provide more in the way of sincere support for BO- and they said some of the right things, but it was just words!

Not much was said out BO actual qualities and qualifications to be prez, but more a sideways " my wife STILL has my support-she is MY candidate, but we are uniting wether we REALLY believe BO can do it or not...Anything to beat the Repubs..." was my take on it.

Pretty much. I mean what else can they say...

[tmma 467]

Well, I thought the Hillary video played before her speech and the music played was interesting ( "An AMERICAN Girl" and " What I like About You"...etc) was all about Hillary out there, meeting people, HER efforts etc, most of her speech was HER take on everything about HER stance. Would have been more effective support for BO if a little blurb was played of him out there....HIS accomplishments. Would have shown true support and a willingness sincerly to share the limelight and back him 100%.

Bill's speech was about his support for his wife, unity and HIS accomplishments and alittle thrown in about Biden's experience in foreign policy as a back up to BO....And he ended with the song " Don't stop Thinking about Tomorrow..." I thought that was interesting, but that's just me. I also thought Michelle Obamas applause was half hearted at the best....JMO.

Edited August 28, 2008 by tmma

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Afraid it takes more than fancy speeches to impress me (though on that score - GWB is perhaps the worst, most inarticulate public speaker in recent years).

I just don't get this unbridled optimism that somehow the Democrats are going to bowl over all opposition and stroll into the White House in November.

Ain't gonna happen...

That's an over-simplification of the enthusiasm among a growing number of voters who are not only hoping for better than what the last 8 years have given them, but expect better. You can't measure the intellectual discontent among Americans and their carefully thought out resolve on a number of key issues going into this very important election, the economy, the war in Iraq, Global Warming, our energy policy. If there's one thing that I've come to a realization after closely following American politics for the last quart century is that there are two very different ideological approaches towards issues that effect all Americans represented by the two major political parties, even though most Americans fall somewhere in the middle of those two opposing ideologies. What is uniquely different, IMO, of this election, is that it isn't so much anchored by drawing a line in the sand between those two ideologies, but rather a contest of ideas.

For example, an American voter who may be traditionally against the principle of government regulation, may find himself supporting the need for tighter environmental regulations on industry. Both McCain and Obama recognize that while also recognizing that they cannot completely abandon their prospective Party's platform either. This election will be decided more on which candidate and which Party demonstrates the best ideas for this particular time in history than about the candidates themselves, IMO. It's just unfortunate that many here at least, fail to look beyond the surface to find the real substance that is there. There really is little difference in the characteristics of American politics now compared to when JFK was President.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Jabberwocky

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I dunno Steve - you can present it as optimistically as you like, but I'm convinced it will come down, once again, to a "lesser of two evils" - with the Republicans being a known quantity over vague election promises about change and half-hearted proposals subtitled with "tax increase".

I also think that the next term of office, whoever wins, won't be a significant departure from what we have already.

[tmma 467]

Afraid it takes more than fancy speeches to impress me (though on that score - GWB is perhaps the worst, most inarticulate public speaker in recent years).

I just don't get this unbridled optimism that somehow the Democrats are going to bowl over all opposition and stroll into the White House in November.

Ain't gonna happen...

That's an over-simplification of the enthusiasm among a growing number of voters who are not only hoping for better than what the last 8 years have given them, but expect better. You can't measure the intellectual discontent among Americans and their carefully thought out resolve on a number of key issues going into this very important election, the economy, the war in Iraq, Global Warming, our energy policy. If there's one thing that I've come to a realization after closely following American politics for the last quart century is that there are two very different ideological approaches towards issues that effect all Americans represented by the two major political parties, even though most Americans fall somewhere in the middle of those two opposing ideologies. What is uniquely different, IMO, of this election, is that it isn't so much anchored by drawing a line in the sand between those two ideologies, but rather a contest of ideas.

For example, an American voter who may be traditionally against the principle of government regulation, may find himself supporting the need for tighter environmental regulations on industry. Both McCain and Obama have recognized that while understanding that they can't completely abandon their prospective Party's platform either. This election will be decided more on which candidate and which Party demonstrates the best ideas for this particular time in history than about the candidates themselves, IMO. It's just unfortunate that many here at least, fail to look beyond the surface to find the real substance that is there. There really is little difference in the characteristics of American politics now compared to when JFK was President.

Don't you think the bolded statement is just a tad condescending? You seem to be assuming that alot on here don't look beyond the words and blurb. I don't believe that at all. Commenting on all we have to go on right now ( speeches) is not an indication of being superficial in our voting, or blindly following whomever you voted for 4, 8 or even 16 years ago because you are a registered whatever.

BO is a relative newcomer in all this. A deeper look at what he actually is GOING TO DO is needed. I need to know more about Biden, and of course we all need to know who McCain is choosing for VP. Still alot of variables to consider before November.

Commenting on the substance of speeches is no indication of a lack of deep thought in the actual issues at hand for the nation; and implications of this historic election.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Afraid it takes more than fancy speeches to impress me (though on that score - GWB is perhaps the worst, most inarticulate public speaker in recent years).

I just don't get this unbridled optimism that somehow the Democrats are going to bowl over all opposition and stroll into the White House in November.

Ain't gonna happen...

That's an over-simplification of the enthusiasm among a growing number of voters who are not only hoping for better than what the last 8 years have given them, but expect better. You can't measure the intellectual discontent among Americans and their carefully thought out resolve on a number of key issues going into this very important election, the economy, the war in Iraq, Global Warming, our energy policy. If there's one thing that I've come to a realization after closely following American politics for the last quart century is that there are two very different ideological approaches towards issues that effect all Americans represented by the two major political parties, even though most Americans fall somewhere in the middle of those two opposing ideologies. What is uniquely different, IMO, of this election, is that it isn't so much anchored by drawing a line in the sand between those two ideologies, but rather a contest of ideas.

For example, an American voter who may be traditionally against the principle of government regulation, may find himself supporting the need for tighter environmental regulations on industry. Both McCain and Obama have recognized that while understanding that they can't completely abandon their prospective Party's platform either. This election will be decided more on which candidate and which Party demonstrates the best ideas for this particular time in history than about the candidates themselves, IMO. It's just unfortunate that many here at least, fail to look beyond the surface to find the real substance that is there. There really is little difference in the characteristics of American politics now compared to when JFK was President.

Don't you think the bolded statement is just a tad condescending? You seem to be assuming that alot on here don't look beyond the words and blurb. I don't believe that at all. Commenting on all we have to go on right now ( speeches) is not an indication of being superficial in our voting, or blindly following whomever you voted for 4, 8 or even 16 years ago because you are a registered whatever.

BO is a relative newcomer in all this. A deeper look at what he actually is GOING TO DO is needed. I need to know more about Biden, and of course we all need to know who McCain is choosing for VP. Still alot of variables to consider before November.

Commenting on the substance of speeches is no indication of a lack of deep thought in the actual issues at hand for the nation; and implications of this historic election.

That's a response to what I have read here in OT over the many political discussions that have taken place since the Primaries and particularly with Obama - that he lacks substance. What's tiresome is that instead of debating over ideas, a lot of times, the political discussions focus on such superficial comments like that making the focus more on the candidates than the ideas they support. I think Bill Clinton did a superb job in his speech last night by complimenting McCain as a person, while also drawing a sharp distinction between the ideas McCain supports vs. the ideas that the Democratic Party and Obama support. We could spend the next three months dissecting what each of the two candidates say, whether they used the best choice of words, or whether it has any substance, or we can debate over which ideas make more sense for this country at this time in history. I can say this - there is one Party and one candidate who will benefit by NOT making the current political discourse about which ideas are better.

[tmma 467]

I think Bill Clinton did a superb job in his speech last night by complimenting McCain as a person

The McCain part of Bill's speech was great. I too was very happy to hear that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well this goes to what PH was talking about earlier - specifically that its easier to sell people on a known quantity with ideas that they can relate to even if those ideas are in themselves complete tosh. You can certainly sell the idea of a clean slate if the incumbents are so abysmally horrible that there is no other alternative - and indeed if the opposition is charismatic enough to appeal to a plurality of the electorate. Unfortunately what also happens is that a degree of apathy and cynicism sets in and lowers the standard of what is expected from elected officials.

Hence we get stuck with the idea that the government shouldn't involve itself in things like healthcare or industry regulation because its expected (assumed rather) that the government has the Midas touch of sh!t where these things are concerned. Noone seems to question this or why government should be inefficient in this way... I mean... should we honestly tolerate this?

I don't know whether Obama can win or not - but he is suffering something of a deficit in the polls (which is an achievement given the Bush/Cheney albatross that the reps are saddled with) and doesn't seem to have the level of voter support that he should have to expect to win at all - let alone by a comfortable margin.

As to substance - there's any number of published surveys that give you an idea of why support for Obama isn't what it should be. I posted one above - here is another.

This isn't a crystal ball I'm looking at here - and clearly the usefulness of polls is limited to their methodology, but clearly when you read the same thing over and over again "people don't know what Obama stands for / don't think he has the qualities or experience for effective leadership" it really is a case of putting 2 and 2 together. I hope he does win - I'm not sure that he deserves to.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Number 6

[HAL 9000 96]

It strikes me that you (collective you as in those who support 'conservatism' somewhat blindely) and Steve are opposite sides of the same coin. Steven is wedded to Barack and doesn't appear to see any flaws, you are so anti Barack you can't see anything good about him.

I expect though that this is a perception of your respective positions and not quite your actual positions.

Well he does think he's a nice guy at least.

It strikes me that you (collective you as in those who support 'conservatism' somewhat blindely) and Steve are opposite sides of the same coin. Steven is wedded to Barack and doesn't appear to see any flaws, you are so anti Barack you can't see anything good about him.

I expect though that this is a perception of your respective positions and not quite your actual positions.

There's another group out there that aren't blind conservatives at all that can't see anything good about Borack either. Three sided coin. I'm a Republican and I can honestly say that I like the man. I also love the Jack in the Box commercials but I will never go to the restaurant, and as much as I love the Geico commercials I am never going to switch insurance companies!

Yes that whole thing with the E.coli scare back in the 90s confirmed my decision to stay away from Jack in the Box establishments as well as most fast food places period.

[HAL 9000 96]

I dunno Steve - you can present it as optimistically as you like, but I'm convinced it will come down, once again, to a "lesser of two evils" - with the Republicans being a known quantity over vague election promises about change and half-hearted proposals subtitled with "tax increase".

I also think that the next term of office, whoever wins, won't be a significant departure from what we have already.

I suspect something like that is in the psych works for many undecided voters thus far.

It all will boil down to what memory is retained at the boots of the last two terms- continuing its screwing of the entire nation and in many ways, the rest of the international community, vs. trying something a little different. And of course... how much selective memory is practiced after viewing deceptive tv commercials that appear to impact some more so than others... and the underlying factors that are skirted upon throughout the campaign process that are not easy to admit for many voters.