I do not agree

[Peikko 1,575]

geez, you can't keep anybody happy around here

first they get on Obama's supporters backs because they seem to be blindly following Obama and then they list somethings they have concerns about and you get reactions like zgt's

#### stirring isn't a legitimate opinion/argument. There is little point in worrying about keeping someone like that happy. They don't want to be 'happy' just annoying.

[Peikko 1,575]

Barack hasn't been banging the health care drum or any other positive message drum that is leading to comprehension, so why should anyone think he represensts change for the better? McCain represents something these people understand, even if they don't like it. Barack represents something they don't understand and think they should be extremely wary of because the message that what he represents is dangerous is far stronger than any of his counter arguments currently. That is Baracks biggest weakness in my opinion.

It could be a weakness if voters suddenly forget they are already most likely facing ridiculously high out of pocket costs under what is sure to come under another Republican administration- with a prospective continuation of inflationary costs to receive less quality care.

Obama seriously needs to focus on these basic issues since it is clear the Republicans are not going to campaign a better plan that Obama could come up with. By mentioning a shifting in investment strategies from one that creates a sick world and spending on better preventive medicine, most voters with the ability to add 1+1 should hypothetically come around on that issue in particular.

Spoken like a true follower

Seriously, I agree that the Democrats are the logical choice for anyone who doesn't earn a million dollar income or who doesn't fall under the religious zealout umbrella. However, this message is not being brought home to the average swing voter and that's not my fault, or yours. That's the fault of the candidate which in this case is Barack.

[HAL 9000 96]

geez, you can't keep anybody happy around here

first they get on Obama's supporters backs because they seem to be blindly following Obama and then they list somethings they have concerns about and you get reactions like zgt's

#### stirring isn't a legitimate opinion/argument. There is little point in worrying about keeping someone like that happy. They don't want to be 'happy' just annoying.

Yep. There is an abysmal difference between the insane and those interested in actual discussion.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Barack hasn't been banging the health care drum or any other positive message drum that is leading to comprehension, so why should anyone think he represensts change for the better? McCain represents something these people understand, even if they don't like it. Barack represents something they don't understand and think they should be extremely wary of because the message that what he represents is dangerous is far stronger than any of his counter arguments currently. That is Baracks biggest weakness in my opinion.

It could be a weakness if voters suddenly forget they are already most likely facing ridiculously high out of pocket costs under what is sure to come under another Republican administration- with a prospective continuation of inflationary costs to receive less quality care.

Obama seriously needs to focus on these basic issues since it is clear the Republicans are not going to campaign a better plan that Obama could come up with. By mentioning a shifting in investment strategies from one that creates a sick world and spending on better preventive medicine, most voters with the ability to add 1+1 should hypothetically come around on that issue in particular.

Spoken like a true follower

Seriously, I agree that the Democrats are the logical choice for anyone who doesn't earn a million dollar income or who doesn't fall under the religious zealout umbrella. However, this message is not being brought home to the average swing voter and that's not my fault, or yours. That's the fault of the candidate which in this case is Barack.

Yep the Democrats are more ideologically inclined towards the middle-class. But it certainly bothers me that Obama doesn't seem to be promoting his case on the issues that should get him elected. This election is fast turning into a movie premiere where all the heavy marketing is done at the last minute.

[HAL 9000 96]

Barack hasn't been banging the health care drum or any other positive message drum that is leading to comprehension, so why should anyone think he represensts change for the better? McCain represents something these people understand, even if they don't like it. Barack represents something they don't understand and think they should be extremely wary of because the message that what he represents is dangerous is far stronger than any of his counter arguments currently. That is Baracks biggest weakness in my opinion.

It could be a weakness if voters suddenly forget they are already most likely facing ridiculously high out of pocket costs under what is sure to come under another Republican administration- with a prospective continuation of inflationary costs to receive less quality care.

Obama seriously needs to focus on these basic issues since it is clear the Republicans are not going to campaign a better plan that Obama could come up with. By mentioning a shifting in investment strategies from one that creates a sick world and spending on better preventive medicine, most voters with the ability to add 1+1 should hypothetically come around on that issue in particular.

Spoken like a true follower

Seriously, I agree that the Democrats are the logical choice for anyone who doesn't earn a million dollar income or who doesn't fall under the religious zealout umbrella. However, this message is not being brought home to the average swing voter and that's not my fault, or yours. That's the fault of the candidate which in this case is Barack.

I don't know where simple logic falls under the follower umbrella but I'll fancy that for about 100 milliseconds. Done.

I do agree in the absolute that Obama needs to start being a little more specific about his potential policies. Of course, while fending off the inevitable barrage of petty political attacks that have absolutely little to do with those issues and more. For some arcane reason I question why Obama's campaign and policies are labeled in the 'follower' range while McCain's campaign and ruses are given such a strange pass.

Barack hasn't been banging the health care drum or any other positive message drum that is leading to comprehension, so why should anyone think he represensts change for the better? McCain represents something these people understand, even if they don't like it. Barack represents something they don't understand and think they should be extremely wary of because the message that what he represents is dangerous is far stronger than any of his counter arguments currently. That is Baracks biggest weakness in my opinion.

It could be a weakness if voters suddenly forget they are already most likely facing ridiculously high out of pocket costs under what is sure to come under another Republican administration- with a prospective continuation of inflationary costs to receive less quality care.

Obama seriously needs to focus on these basic issues since it is clear the Republicans are not going to campaign a better plan that Obama could come up with. By mentioning a shifting in investment strategies from one that creates a sick world and spending on better preventive medicine, most voters with the ability to add 1+1 should hypothetically come around on that issue in particular.

Spoken like a true follower

Seriously, I agree that the Democrats are the logical choice for anyone who doesn't earn a million dollar income or who doesn't fall under the religious zealout umbrella. However, this message is not being brought home to the average swing voter and that's not my fault, or yours. That's the fault of the candidate which in this case is Barack.

Yep the Democrats are more ideologically inclined towards the middle-class. But it certainly bothers me that Obama doesn't seem to be promoting his case on the issues that should get him elected. This election is fast turning into a movie premiere where all the heavy marketing is done at the last minute.

Yes it seems for the moment that its a movie that is supposed to make you think vs a horror movie where we can already predict the ending because its already been made many times over.

[Peikko 1,575]

You misunderstood. Your argument was so convoluted that it would have absolutely no meaning to the average Joe and would fuel the 'elitism' cries. That was my 'follower' meaning hence being also tongue in cheak.

I do not look at Barack's campaign/policies any differently to the way I look at McCains. However, he does have the advantage of being in the 'safe' camp. It's really that simple. Conservatism is percieved as safe and liberalism is percieved as dangerous. Barack has the more difficult task from that point of view as McCain doesn't really have to do very much to persuade people on his policies.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

For some arcane reason I question why Obama's campaign and policies are labeled in the 'follower' range while McCain's campaign and ruses are given such a strange pass.

Its not hard to fathom really - it has a lot to do with Obama's celebrity, his "Change We Can Believe in" Mantra (and here at least because of the Hillbot label applied to Clinton supporters); though I think its even simpler than that. Simply has to do with finding ways to alienate and marginalise the opposition so that you don't have to listen to anything they have to say. Though it isn't just the Obama supporters who are doing this. It certainly isn't new.

[HAL 9000 96]

You misunderstood. Your argument was so convoluted that it would have absolutely no meaning to the average Joe and would fuel the 'elitism' cries. That was my 'follower' meaning hence being also tongue in cheak.

I do not look at Barack's campaign/policies any differently to the way I look at McCains. However, he does have the advantage of being in the 'safe' camp. It's really that simple. Conservatism is percieved as safe and liberalism is percieved as dangerous. Barack has the more difficult task from that point of view as McCain doesn't really have to do very much to persuade people on his policies.

I know. This does beg the question... how much in terms of details can an 'average joe' really comprehend to be able to make an educated decision in an election? Remember, for the most part most voters vote along general ideas of what they think the candidates will do as promised.

As for conservativism and liberalism it goes way beyond that. In this same scenario the popularity contest that is the campaign season we also have additional non-issues that we already know affects the potential outcomes- race, perceived economics (based on what we are told), etc.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You misunderstood. Your argument was so convoluted that it would have absolutely no meaning to the average Joe and would fuel the 'elitism' cries. That was my 'follower' meaning hence being also tongue in cheak.

I do not look at Barack's campaign/policies any differently to the way I look at McCains. However, he does have the advantage of being in the 'safe' camp. It's really that simple. Conservatism is percieved as safe and liberalism is percieved as dangerous. Barack has the more difficult task from that point of view as McCain doesn't really have to do very much to persuade people on his policies.

The problem is that after GWB this is really one election that the Republican party should expect to lose. There was always going to be a backlash against them after the Bush years and McCain's camp had to expect to take a hit in the numbers simply for being the incumbent party.

Quite simply if the Democrats lose - it won't be because McCain is the better candidate - it will be their own fault for throwing away the election and not getting their positions over clearly.

[HAL 9000 96]

For some arcane reason I question why Obama's campaign and policies are labeled in the 'follower' range while McCain's campaign and ruses are given such a strange pass.

Its not hard to fathom really - it has a lot to do with Obama's celebrity, his "Change We Can Believe in" Mantra (and here at least because of the Hillbot label applied to Clinton supporters); though I think its even simpler than that. Simply has to do with finding ways to alienate and marginalise the opposition so that you don't have to listen to anything they have to say. Though it isn't just the Obama supporters who are doing this. It certainly isn't new.

Of course I was being ironic. Such antics are in no way surprising. I do find it pathetic, though, that while things continue to inspire a majority of people to want to depart from the politics that rule today's government... many are not comfortable as of this moment to actually put someone that (even briefly) mentions that it is his centerpiece to bring about such changes. While many of the politics underlying such behavior is not new... there are also other undertones that are particular to this election and the polarized climate we have allowed this nation to follow based on ideology that should be quite easily seen... yet even more so ignored out of ignorance and convenience.

[HAL 9000 96]

You misunderstood. Your argument was so convoluted that it would have absolutely no meaning to the average Joe and would fuel the 'elitism' cries. That was my 'follower' meaning hence being also tongue in cheak.

I do not look at Barack's campaign/policies any differently to the way I look at McCains. However, he does have the advantage of being in the 'safe' camp. It's really that simple. Conservatism is percieved as safe and liberalism is percieved as dangerous. Barack has the more difficult task from that point of view as McCain doesn't really have to do very much to persuade people on his policies.

The problem is that after GWB this is really one election that the Republican party should expect to lose. There was always going to be a backlash against them after the Bush years and McCain's camp had to expect to take a hit in the numbers simply for being the incumbent party.

Quite simply if the Democrats lose - it won't be because McCain is the better candidate - it will be their own fault for throwing away the election and not getting their positions over clearly.

While I do fault the Democrats somewhat I would not do so in the entirety. I see more factors out there that could potentially skew voters against Obama that have nothing to do with the actual issues that are the centerpiece of the election.

[Peikko 1,575]

You misunderstood. Your argument was so convoluted that it would have absolutely no meaning to the average Joe and would fuel the 'elitism' cries. That was my 'follower' meaning hence being also tongue in cheak.

I do not look at Barack's campaign/policies any differently to the way I look at McCains. However, he does have the advantage of being in the 'safe' camp. It's really that simple. Conservatism is percieved as safe and liberalism is percieved as dangerous. Barack has the more difficult task from that point of view as McCain doesn't really have to do very much to persuade people on his policies.

I know. This does beg the question... how much in terms of details can an 'average joe' really comprehend to be able to make an educated decision in an election? Remember, for the most part most voters vote along general ideas of what they think the candidates will do as promised.

As for conservativism and liberalism it goes way beyond that. In this same scenario the popularity contest that is the campaign season we also have additional non-issues that we already know affects the potential outcomes- race, perceived economics (based on what we are told), etc.

Barack has the more difficult task but he hasn't really done a great job so far of carrying the important messages to the people in a way they understand. McCain does that, even if what he is telling them is rubbish, they believe him because it makes sense to them.

For example. Gas prices are going up, so we need to drill for more domestic oil and we need to stop importing this strategically important resource from our enemies. See, that's how simple and effective his arguments are.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Obama's problem is that he has made intangible promises to be some sort of transformative political figure - not unlike the Reps holy grail of looking for "the next Ronald Reagan". I just don't see how he can achieve the high promises he's making. It sounds good and I'm sure he means well - I just don't think it is a promise that he can reasonably expect to deliver upon. If that's the case... why is he promising it...?

After all actions speak louder than words - so he shouldn't expect to convince people on the virtue of what he says but on how he actually plans to bring this change about.

[HAL 9000 96]

You misunderstood. Your argument was so convoluted that it would have absolutely no meaning to the average Joe and would fuel the 'elitism' cries. That was my 'follower' meaning hence being also tongue in cheak.

I do not look at Barack's campaign/policies any differently to the way I look at McCains. However, he does have the advantage of being in the 'safe' camp. It's really that simple. Conservatism is percieved as safe and liberalism is percieved as dangerous. Barack has the more difficult task from that point of view as McCain doesn't really have to do very much to persuade people on his policies.

I know. This does beg the question... how much in terms of details can an 'average joe' really comprehend to be able to make an educated decision in an election? Remember, for the most part most voters vote along general ideas of what they think the candidates will do as promised.

As for conservativism and liberalism it goes way beyond that. In this same scenario the popularity contest that is the campaign season we also have additional non-issues that we already know affects the potential outcomes- race, perceived economics (based on what we are told), etc.

Barack has the more difficult task but he hasn't really done a great job so far of carrying the important messages to the people in a way they understand. McCain does that, even if what he is telling them is rubbish, they believe him because it makes sense to them.

For example. Gas prices are going up, so we need to drill for more domestic oil and we need to stop importing this strategically important resource from our enemies. See, that's how simple and effective his arguments are.

No kidding with that example. We see the truth of it here in OT all the time. No matter how realistic you get with USGS estimates based on real science, there is nearly no convincing that one bucket of crude oil drilled per day- by the time it reaches the market, will not suffice to reduce our 1000 bucket a day habit nor will it impact price in any measurable way.

When you promote change it really is your burden to show what it is you intend to change with more substance. That does not eliminate the need for change, IMO. And there is an explanation but it is largely ignored because there are not enough neon signs and attack ads that smokescreen those issues against the other candidate.

I do realize that if Obama loses its going to be a combination of factors that led to his loss... but what is unquestionable is that we will certainly, as a society, deserve the McCain presidency we'd get.

[dalegg 143]

Are you sure you're a Democrat?

Your question has thrown me into a spiral of self-doubt out of which I may never emerge

I think a Corona and a little soul-searching may be in order tonight.

Corona?

And I had you pegged as a man of good taste.

For shame!

Usually its whatever Costco has on sale. If I can get 24 Heineken's for the same price as 12 Sapporos... well, sacrifices have to be made.

Admit it dude... you meant Heineken Light...

WHAT THE HELL!? are you spying on me?? As a matter of fact I accidentally did pull down the Light with the nice white bottle caps.