Would you sue for this?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yeah the code reader flags up general codes - you need specific software to pinpoint the exact location of the problem. That's the problem we had at the original garage - it could tell us the problem was in the coolant system - but not whether it was the coolant sensor, the waterpump, or the thermostat. The first VW place we took it too said coolant temp sensor (so they misdiagnosed it as well), this lot say thermostat, coolant hose and now temp sensor (again) and water pump.

I thought the sensor was designed to operate at high temperatures so I'm surprised its failed given that it was supposedly a new part.

This situation is a bit of a mess unfortunately.

[desert_fox 32]

Yeah the code reader flags up general codes - you need specific software to pinpoint the exact location of the problem. That's the problem we had at the original garage - it could tell us the problem was in the coolant system - but not whether it was the coolant sensor, the waterpump, or the thermostat. The first VW place we took it too said coolant temp sensor (so they misdiagnosed it as well), this lot say thermostat, coolant hose and now temp sensor (again) and water pump.

I thought the sensor was designed to operate at high temperatures so I'm surprised its failed given that it was supposedly a new part.

This situation is a bit of a mess unfortunately.

The reader reads the codes of the engine control system sensors that are a part of the equation as to when to fire the spark plugs, and trim the mixture, given the set of inputs which includes engine coolant temperature. This is the only sensor that you will find in the coolant system. Water pump problems are diagnosed by inspection, leakage, noise, and lack of coolant circulation. The thermostat is only a device that stays closed until the coolant reaches 180 degrees and which time it opens to allow coolant flow. It is not part of the electronic control system and does not report a code. You typically throw em in a pan of boiling water and watch them open....$30 max for a VW.

VW??...take it to a german mchanic or a dealer.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yeah the code reader flags up general codes - you need specific software to pinpoint the exact location of the problem. That's the problem we had at the original garage - it could tell us the problem was in the coolant system - but not whether it was the coolant sensor, the waterpump, or the thermostat. The first VW place we took it too said coolant temp sensor (so they misdiagnosed it as well), this lot say thermostat, coolant hose and now temp sensor (again) and water pump.

I thought the sensor was designed to operate at high temperatures so I'm surprised its failed given that it was supposedly a new part.

This situation is a bit of a mess unfortunately.

The reader reads the codes of the engine control system sensors that are a part of the equation as to when to fire the spark plugs, and trim the mixture, given the set of inputs which includes engine coolant temperature. This is the only sensor that you will find in the coolant system. Water pump problems are diagnosed by inspection, leakage, noise, and lack of coolant circulation. The thermostat is only a device that stays closed until the coolant reaches 180 degrees and which time it opens to allow coolant flow. It is not part of the electronic control system and does not report a code. You typically throw em in a pan of boiling water and watch them open....$30 max for a VW.

VW??...take it to a german mchanic or a dealer.

This is the dealer...

[yogib37 3]

Your car engine light comes on - so not wanting to take chances you take the car to the garage who perform an obligatory computer diagnostic (for $100) and tell you that the error is in the coolant system. You then pay $500 to replace the thermostat and one of the coolant hoses which you are given to understand is the cause of the problem.

You drive the car for 2 weeks - at which point the car inexplicably overheats and boils over (and the engine light comes back on).

You have the car towed to the dealer garage where you originally got it fixed as they did the last batch of work. They get to looking at it "when they get around to it" and quote you an $800 repair bill for a busted water pump and a boiled coolant sensor. "Generously" the garage offers you a 10% discount on the cost of the *new* repairs.

Knowing that there aren't too many reasons why a car will overheat and boil over - does the garage have some responsibility for not correctly identifying the original problem?

I would think that a thermostat for that car is on the order of $30.

Go tp Walmarts ande for less than $100 you can but a code reader that plugs into the dianostic connector and you can read your own codes.

I would talk to the owner that you think that it should have been properly diagnosed for first time, but if the water pump was working when you originally took it in, then what are they going to do. If it wasnt working, then you would have known about it within a few minutes of driving.

The timing belt is internal to the engine an has nothing to do with the water pump. You are talking about the serpentine belt which is a pain to replace an the front wheel drive engines, as you have to dismount the engine from the motor mounts and raise it a few inches to slip the new belt in.

I think the only thing you should complan about are the prices. They use standard times that are published for each kind of task for any kind of car. Check the allowable hours and the retail prices of the parts, as you paid way too much.

Yes Fox you are right about the timing belt, Maybe a good word for the belt he is talking about that the water pump runs from maybe we could call it a accessory belt. That drives the water pump, Alt. A/C if the car has one.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

May I ask what is the make, model and year of the car?

2003 VW Beetle

The wife's choice... Last time she'll be doing that I think

It sounds like an incompetent misdiagnosis of the problem in the first place. They probably didn't even bother to test if the thermostat was faulty or not...they couldn't figure out was wrong so the assume thermostat is faulty...and oh, lets replace one of the hoses while we're at it. If the thermostat was faulty, you would have seen the temperature gauge not functioning properly.

Those guys are schmucks, but unfortunately, since you had the car towed to a dealer garage instead of the place you had repairs, I don't think there's much you can do about it now.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

May I ask what is the make, model and year of the car?

2003 VW Beetle

The wife's choice... Last time she'll be doing that I think

It sounds like an incompetent misdiagnosis of the problem in the first place. They probably didn't even bother to test if the thermostat was faulty or not...they couldn't figure out was wrong so the assume thermostat is faulty...and oh, lets replace one of the hoses while we're at it. If the thermostat was faulty, you would have seen the temperature gauge not functioning properly.

Those guys are schmucks, but unfortunately, since you had the car towed to a dealer garage instead of the place you had repairs, I don't think there's much you can do about it now.

Well this is where its messy - this is the 3rd garage we've been to. First place couldn't diagnose the problem - so we took to a second place (dealer) who said coolant temp sensor, had that replaced at the first place. When the light came back on again the first place told us to go back to the dealer - so we went to a 3rd place who said thermostat and hose and replaced those. 2 weeks later it overheats - so we take it back to the third place who did the last batch of work and now its temp sensor again and water pump.

Sadly this car doesn't have a temp gauge. You only know its running hot when its already overheating and you get the warning light.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

May I ask what is the make, model and year of the car?

2003 VW Beetle

The wife's choice... Last time she'll be doing that I think

It sounds like an incompetent misdiagnosis of the problem in the first place. They probably didn't even bother to test if the thermostat was faulty or not...they couldn't figure out was wrong so the assume thermostat is faulty...and oh, lets replace one of the hoses while we're at it. If the thermostat was faulty, you would have seen the temperature gauge not functioning properly.

Those guys are schmucks, but unfortunately, since you had the car towed to a dealer garage instead of the place you had repairs, I don't think there's much you can do about it now.

Well this is where its messy - this is the 3rd garage we've been to. First place couldn't diagnose the problem - so we took to a second place (dealer) who said coolant temp sensor, had that replaced at the first place. When the light came back on again the first place told us to go back to the dealer - so we went to a 3rd place who said thermostat and hose and replaced those. 2 weeks later it overheats - so we take it back to the third place who did the last batch of work and now its temp sensor again and water pump.

Sadly this car doesn't have a temp gauge. You only know its running hot when its already overheating and you get the warning light.

Crazy. Yeah, I understand wanting to find someone who knows what they are doing, but IMO, once you have a specific garage work on your car, it's best to keep bringing it back to them until they actually fix the problem they originally said they fixed. Sorry you both had to go through this.

[HAL 9000 96]

Yeah the code reader flags up general codes - you need specific software to pinpoint the exact location of the problem. That's the problem we had at the original garage - it could tell us the problem was in the coolant system - but not whether it was the coolant sensor, the waterpump, or the thermostat. The first VW place we took it too said coolant temp sensor (so they misdiagnosed it as well), this lot say thermostat, coolant hose and now temp sensor (again) and water pump.

I thought the sensor was designed to operate at high temperatures so I'm surprised its failed given that it was supposedly a new part.

This situation is a bit of a mess unfortunately.

I think that is part of the red flag... at least for me. If the diagnostic includes the waterpump within the same circulatory aspect of the coolant system then IMO an honest mechanic would check it in addition to the cooling system in order to be able to rule out that it isn't something else.

Ditto to the sensor also. Something seems fishy there.

[kaydee457 13]

Whoa...I just sort of skimmed over all these posts but I've been working on cars all my life (since a teen) and I've just completed the timing belt on two cars I own, one of which I sold recently, a Neon and a Kia Spectra.

The Neon's water pump is behind the timing cover and is driven by the timing belt. When doing a pump replacement it's always good practice to replace the belt and tensioner at the same time as this job's very labor intensive!

The Kia was a bit different as it's WP is also located behing the timing cover but NOT driven by the timing belt but rather its shaft exits the cover and a pulley is installed to allow it to be driven by an external accesory belt. Nevertheless, it too is a very labor intensive job and if replacing the belt, or pump, it's always "good practice" to replace everything under the cover, belt, tensioner, and pump.

If I understand your problem you've had a sensor replaced? May I ask what the model/year/engine combo is in your car?

Do you have an electric radiator coolant fan? Do you hear it come on when overheating?

BTW, a bad WP will result in some leakage of anti-freeze, usually via the shaft bearings. If you park in a personal driveway everyday then inspect the place where you park for signs of antifreeze. See any?

If not, then assuming a bad WP (if they're right which in my experience is rare) then if you don't see anti-freeze on the driveway, open the inspection hole on the timing belt cam cover (usually a plastic plug) and look around with a flashlight. You should see a belt, and other components soaked in gree anti-freeze if the pump's leaking. If not, then look elsewhere.

The most prevalent causes of overheats are:

1 Stuck thermostat (certainly not an $800 job)

2 Bad fan clutch, or in your case a bad fan temperature switch as I suspect that your car has an electric fan.

3 WP

4 clogged or leaking radiator

Edited August 18, 2008 by kaydee457

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

I would just chalk it up to you being an idiot!

[kaydee457 13]

So you have an idea of what the inspection cover looks like here's a couple of photos I took when I did the Neon and the Kia.

The round black plastic plug on top of the cover is the inspection hole. Just pry it out.

The other photo is of the Neon timing belt routing. The smaller gear is the WP.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Whoa...I just sort of skimmed over all these posts but I've been working on cars all my life (since a teen) and I've just completed the timing belt on two cars I own, one of which I sold recently, a Neon and a Kia Spectra.

The Neon's water pump is behind the timing cover and is driven by the timing belt. When doing a pump replacement it's always good practice to replace the belt and tensioner at the same time as this job's very labor intensive!

The Kia was a bit different as it's WP is also located behing the timing cover but NOT driven by the timing belt but rather its shaft exits the cover and a pulley is installed to allow it to be driven by an external accesory belt. Nevertheless, it too is a very labor intensive job and if replacing the belt, or pump, it's always "good practice" to replace everything under the cover, belt, tensioner, and pump.

If I understand your problem you've had a sensor replaced? May I ask what the model/year/engine combo is in your car?

Do you have an electric radiator coolant fan? Do you hear it come on when overheating?

BTW, a bad WP will result in some leakage of anti-freeze, usually via the shaft bearings. If you park in a personal driveway everyday then inspect the place where you park for signs of antifreeze. See any?

If not, then assuming a bad WP (if they're right which in my experience is rare) then if you don't see anti-freeze on the driveway, open the inspection hole on the timing belt cam cover (usually a plastic plug) and look around with a flashlight. You should see a belt, and other components soaked in gree anti-freeze if the pump's leaking. If not, then look elsewhere.

The most prevalent causes of overheats are:

1 Stuck thermostat (certainly not an $800 job)

2 Bad fan clutch, or in your case a bad fan temperature switch as I suspect that your car has an electric fan.

3 WP

4 clogged or leaking radiator

Yeah I asked my dad (40 year engineer) and that's pretty much what he said - also that its rare for a waterpump to fail without a lot of miles (i.e. more than the 61,000 we have on there) and without a lot of warning signs) - Not something that should spontaneously fail within the 400 miles between "then" and "now".

The car is actually at the garage (wife had it towed there on friday after it overheated). So not something I'm able to check unfortunately - but I didn't notice any leaks on the road or driveway.

Just heard back from my dad:

Had a check for VW problems on the web – seems there is a problem with VW water pumps having plastic impellers that can apparently fail so it’s recommended to have it changed with the timing belt. Just thought of something, make sure your radiator fan is running, they’re electric and don’t run all the time only when the car hits a certain temp and the sensor cuts in, if its not running check the fuse and/or the relay (main switch that turns the fan on when signalled by the sensor).

See these sites for an explanation of the cooling system and some tips.

http://www.autohausaz.com/volkswagen-auto-...ng-systems.html

http://www.myvwlemon.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000660.html

But I'll definitely ask about the radiator fan as well.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Number 6

[rclouse 0]

Ask your question to Tom & Ray on Car Talk. They are very knowlegdeable.

Or, as Maviwaro suggested go to a VW forum.

If you do sue may I suggest the law firm of Dewey, Cheetham, and Howe?

Take the car to another shop and get a second opinion at the very least. Also I wouldn't use that shop in the future.

/don't drive like my brother!

[JVKn'CVO 11]

May I ask what is the make, model and year of the car?

2003 VW Beetle

The wife's choice... Last time she'll be doing that I think

Before doing anything extreme, I would call their customer service center with all the previous repair information. Also, try to find the purchase information, and if you ever had any previous VW vehicles. You could try to work with them see what they can offer you. If worst comes to worse, It's worth having it documented.

Saludos,

Caro

[Ggreen 12]

Had a check for VW problems on the web – seems there is a problem with VW water pumps having plastic impellers that can apparently fail so it’s recommended to have it changed with the timing belt. Just thought of something, make sure your radiator fan is running, they’re electric and don’t run all the time only when the car hits a certain temp and the sensor cuts in, if its not running check the fuse and/or the relay (main switch that turns the fan on when signalled by the sensor).

See these sites for an explanation of the cooling system and some tips.

http://www.autohausaz.com/volkswagen-auto-...ng-systems.html

http://www.myvwlemon.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000660.html

But I'll definitely ask about the radiator fan as well.

The reason you been told that you need a thermostat and coolant hose is they couldn't find any coolant leak , if the plastic impeller plastic impeller is broken, the engine keep turning the pump sproket but the pump it self is not doing its job of pumping coolant through the system.

the high temperature over normal value can damage coolant sensor no matter how old it is.

since you paid $100 for diagnostic they shoul give you your $100 back for misdiagnostic..

Edited August 19, 2008 by VJ.mmbr