Let down by USA forces once again

[baxxy 0]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

According to you miss high and mighty!

[LaL 418]

No, I think I will pass any further discussion on the topic with someone who thinks setting people up with hoods & wires, employing humilation tactics on prisoners by having them pose in human pyramids and walking them on leashes is acceptable behavior. I have nothing further to say to an individual such as this

Let LAL answer for herself. I am waiting for her answer. Not you AJ, it is without merit.

Iraq never had anything to do with the war on terror.

Ok then curious how would you fight this war on terrorism?

Thanks. I just want to say that I am not trying to excuse bad behavior, just put up an explanation. This kind of stuff is where PTSD comes from too. The young men sometimes have to shut down emotionally just to do their jobs.

It's hard for some to understand this. We don't experience in our cubicles what soldiers experience in a war zone.

There is no misunderstanding here. The reaction to this woman possibly getting blown up (laughing) I can put a cause on it however distasteful I might find it. What I wanted to know if how far does that lend to other behaviors. the reactions I received regarding Abu Ghraib gave me my answer. If some want to shrug their shoulders at putting people on leashes, piling them up naked while giving the thumbs up - calling it eye for an eye - whatever.

Edited August 12, 2008 by LaL

[Peikko 1,575]

Well, ask that question to Charles as he was busily defending their actions not so long ago. Ex military man and all and he doesn't think those guys are louts and bring disgrace to the US uniform? What about all those suckers who go through years of this #### and don't turn into gibbering morons, are they slow or something?

Yeah, I get it, some people react badly to these appalling situations. I know, but it doesn't make it freaking acceptable.

[Peikko 1,575]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

According to you miss high and mighty!

Yeah, I am up on my high horse looking down on those of you who think that putting on the US uniform means you can put down your ethical values, set them aside for a later date when you might need them. Too bad.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

According to you miss high and mighty!

Yeah, I am up on my high horse looking down on those of you who think that putting on the US uniform means you can put down your ethical values, set them aside for a later date when you might need them. Too bad.

Now that is uncalled for. No one has suggested that ethics are suspended when in uniform. I would venture a guess that the men in the clip would be shocked at their own laughter (or at least made uncomfortable) years after, God willing, they return home safely.

[Peikko 1,575]

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

[Kevin and 10]

Unless you experince what these guys have been through you don't know how you would react. Is laughing at someone elses pearl acceptable? Not to a civillian, but on the battlefield these guys need to find a way to keep their heads on straight or they become ineffective. If laughing at stuff like this is the way they cope then who am I to judge, I have never been there nor do I want to.

I know I'm stating the obvious here, but just imagine for a second that the object of their laughter was someone you cared about (mom? sister? wife?). Wouldn't you want to twist their nuts? Clearly, the soldiers weren't thinking about her as a human being with a life, family, and friends, as Brad's post acknowledges. I appreciate Brad's post both because it is honest and because it attempts to explain this type of behavior rather than justify it. It is also the only post that acknowledges that ordinary people have the capacity to be driven to do terrible things under extremely stressful situations, particularly over a long period. Dehumanizing the enemy is often the only way to function under such conditions. Which, of course, is really scary, but that's how we're wired.

Laughing is probably the only emotional release that helps them cope with everything they have been through. I'm not saying its right, but I can somewhat understand why it happens.

[Ban Hammer 13,279]

can you justify Abu Ghraib in the same way, Charles?

when the thread deals with abu ghraib, then we'll address it.

No, I don't expect them to break down sobbing. How pathetic. However, I do expect members of the armed forces to have one criteria at the back of their mind at all times, and that is the value of human life. If that becomes fuzzy and the military allows that to become fuzzy, then you have lost any pretence of civilization.

Mabye those who keep telling me that values have changed really are right because I have never, ever heard it acceptable to laugh at these kinds of sad and unfortunate situations.

pure rubbish. the one criteria in the back of their mind is staying alive.

[Ban Hammer 13,279]

Ok, so here's my question. Are we now suggesting that it's ok to become dehumanized in a war zone?

I believe the suggestion is that due to the very nature of combat itself, people in combat will change to cope. Not all people are alike, so obviously, they'll all change in very different ways.

Which is why combat needs to be entered into carefully and thoughtfully. The price of combat isn't just the money spent or the lives lost, but the lives changed forever.

[LaL 418]

can you justify Abu Ghraib in the same way, Charles?

when the thread deals with abu ghraib, then we'll address it.

No biggie - I was trying to discern what lengths are acceptable behavior for soldiers under stress. For some, Abu Ghraib is, which I find deplorable.

[Ban Hammer 13,279]

Well, ask that question to Charles as he was busily defending their actions not so long ago. Ex military man and all and he doesn't think those guys are louts and bring disgrace to the US uniform? What about all those suckers who go through years of this #### and don't turn into gibbering morons, are they slow or something?

Yeah, I get it, some people react badly to these appalling situations. I know, but it doesn't make it freaking acceptable.

when you've been there and done that, then your words might carry some weight with me. until then, they are dismissed as rantings by someone who's never been in the position where any second death can come calling. be it a sniper bullet, artillery, or even a land mine.

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

so what? do you want a war crime trial for them laughing in a combat zone?

can you justify Abu Ghraib in the same way, Charles?

when the thread deals with abu ghraib, then we'll address it.

No biggie - I was trying to discern what lengths are acceptable behavior for soldiers under stress. For some, Abu Ghraib is, which I find deplorable.

while abu ghraib is a pr nightmare, was anyone killed, maimed, or lost a limb or eyesight?

eta: any permanent physical damage from what was done in those photos?

Edited August 12, 2008 by charles!

[LaL 418]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

[Ban Hammer 13,279]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

that's about the summation of it.

care to take a shot at the questions i posed?

Edited August 12, 2008 by charles!

[HAL 9000 96]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

According to you miss high and mighty!

Yeah, I am up on my high horse looking down on those of you who think that putting on the US uniform means you can put down your ethical values, set them aside for a later date when you might need them. Too bad.

Now that is uncalled for. No one has suggested that ethics are suspended when in uniform. I would venture a guess that the men in the clip would be shocked at their own laughter (or at least made uncomfortable) years after, God willing, they return home safely.

God willing they do return home safely and intact... physically and [sic] mentally.

Unfortunately, given even some VJers complete disregard for basic human dignitiy in light of some very common and well-known problems facing us as a nation and planet, I somehow doubt that much progress can be expected.

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

That usually is the MO whenever a critique is made of certain elements of US foreign policy.

[Ggreen 12]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=977_1218460000

The way they laughed sounds like the first symptoms of mental health issue that many soldiers are saffering from, if feel sory for the innocent woman and our soldiers. many of them are still young.