Let down by USA forces once again

[amiquechu 0]

Oh good grief, yeah, I'm a moron who thinks war zones are nice fair places blah blah blah and just sit in my cubicle moaning on and on about how those silly US soldiers are being ever so naughty, imagine, laughing at those poor innocent civillians never realizing that they might sometimes not be innocent at all, oh the niavity. Bullshit, that's not my argument.

Somebody needs a little more fiber in their diet

[Peikko 1,575]

Just because someone questions the ethics of a group of loutish soldiers it doesn't automatically mean they don't agree with every and all policy decisions made by the US goverment and carried out by the army. Someone get out the Venn, methinks there is yet another person who could benefit from understanding how they work.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Iraq never had anything to do with the war on terror.

Ok then curious how would you fight this war on terrorism?

Thanks. I just want to say that I am not trying to excuse bad behavior, just put up an explanation. This kind of stuff is where PTSD comes from too. The young men sometimes have to shut down emotionally just to do their jobs.

It's hard for some to understand this. We don't experience in our cubicles what soldiers experience in a war zone.

There is no misunderstanding here. The reaction to this woman possibly getting blown up (laughing) I can put a cause on it however distasteful I might find it. What I wanted to know if how far does that lend to other behaviors. the reactions I received regarding Abu Ghraib gave me my answer. If some want to shrug their shoulders at putting people on leashes, piling them up naked while giving the thumbs up - calling it eye for an eye - whatever.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Just because someone questions the ethics of a group of loutish soldiers it doesn't automatically mean they don't agree with every and all policy decisions made by the US goverment and carried out by the army. Someone get out the Venn, methinks there is yet another person who could benefit from understanding how they work.

Who needs critical thinking when you can rely on emotions and groupthink?

[Peikko 1,575]

For the record, I don't work in a CUBICLE! I have a very nice office all to myself. Thank you.

I can't spell record. Oops!

Edited August 12, 2008 by Purple_Hibiscus

[zqt3344 21]

Let LAL answer for herself. I am waiting for her answer. Not you AJ, it is without merit.

Iraq never had anything to do with the war on terror.

Ok then curious how would you fight this war on terrorism?

Thanks. I just want to say that I am not trying to excuse bad behavior, just put up an explanation. This kind of stuff is where PTSD comes from too. The young men sometimes have to shut down emotionally just to do their jobs.

It's hard for some to understand this. We don't experience in our cubicles what soldiers experience in a war zone.

There is no misunderstanding here. The reaction to this woman possibly getting blown up (laughing) I can put a cause on it however distasteful I might find it. What I wanted to know if how far does that lend to other behaviors. the reactions I received regarding Abu Ghraib gave me my answer. If some want to shrug their shoulders at putting people on leashes, piling them up naked while giving the thumbs up - calling it eye for an eye - whatever.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

For the record, I don't work in a CUBICLE! I have a very nice office all to myself. Thank you.

Well, lah-di-dah, aren't you special?

[Peikko 1,575]

Some people think so, obviously

[Kevin and 10]

The Vietnam-era vets that trained me back in the day behaved this way too. I think the gallows humor and lack of respect for human life are part and parcel of long exposure to combat. When even peaceful civilians carry weapons all the time, and the average person in the region looks just like the people trying to kill you, it starts feeling like every one without a uniform is the enemy. Feel that way long enough, and you have no sympathy for their pain, and don't hesitate to put people in danger if they aren't "one of us". It keeps the average soldier or Marine from going crazy I think. Their pain or hardship can even be funny because they aren't people - they are the enemy.

I think Chris Rock said it best "that ain't right - but I understand".

That should clear things up for some. Good post, Brad

Like I said in an earlier post, who knows if she was a suicide bomber or trying to draw American soldiers out there so they could be shot by hidden snipers?

Thanks. I just want to say that I am not trying to excuse bad behavior, just put up an explanation. This kind of stuff is where PTSD comes from too. The young men sometimes have to shut down emotionally just to do their jobs.

Unless you experince what these guys have been through you don't know how you would react. Is laughing at someone elses pearl acceptable? Not to a civillian, but on the battlefield these guys need to find a way to keep their heads on straight or they become ineffective. If laughing at stuff like this is the way they cope then who am I to judge, I have never been there nor do I want to.

[Peikko 1,575]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

[HAL 9000 96]

The Vietnam-era vets that trained me back in the day behaved this way too. I think the gallows humor and lack of respect for human life are part and parcel of long exposure to combat. When even peaceful civilians carry weapons all the time, and the average person in the region looks just like the people trying to kill you, it starts feeling like every one without a uniform is the enemy. Feel that way long enough, and you have no sympathy for their pain, and don't hesitate to put people in danger if they aren't "one of us". It keeps the average soldier or Marine from going crazy I think. Their pain or hardship can even be funny because they aren't people - they are the enemy.

I think Chris Rock said it best "that ain't right - but I understand".

This is also another thing to ponder- the social element of American society's desensitized youth is starting to come through in wartime scenarios. These are psychosocial behaviors that are manifesting themselves under the structure of all the indoctrination of military life- and that could be a worrying trend.

Now I think THAT is where Abu Graib (I know I spelled that wrong) came from. Completely different than the combat related stuff.

Abu Ghraib is a part of it, and if we listen to the gossip behind that scandal we may discover that there was a great deal of official sanctioning of said abuse. I am more interested in the individual mentality that gets recrutied into the Service that somehow transcends training of the codes and rules.

Perhaps its a more prevalent availability of GI-held recording devices like Camcorders that previously weren't available or allowed in combat zones, and I am merely overextending on behaviors that already have been present in any armed forces... but this entire desensitization routine is one that changes according to different scenarios. That is not in debate at all... rather the entire picture of what it is we are allowing our soldiers to manifest beyond the scope of the engagement at hand and the rules which govern said actions.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Unless you experince what these guys have been through you don't know how you would react. Is laughing at someone elses pearl acceptable? Not to a civillian, but on the battlefield these guys need to find a way to keep their heads on straight or they become ineffective. If laughing at stuff like this is the way they cope then who am I to judge, I have never been there nor do I want to.

I know I'm stating the obvious here, but just imagine for a second that the object of their laughter was someone you cared about (mom? sister? wife?). Wouldn't you want to twist their nuts? Clearly, the soldiers weren't thinking about her as a human being with a life, family, and friends, as Brad's post acknowledges. I appreciate Brad's post both because it is honest and because it attempts to explain this type of behavior rather than justify it. It is also the only post that acknowledges that ordinary people have the capacity to be driven to do terrible things under extremely stressful situations, particularly over a long period. Dehumanizing the enemy is often the only way to function under such conditions. Which, of course, is really scary, but that's how we're wired.

[HAL 9000 96]

Ok then curious how would you fight this war on terrorism?

Thanks. I just want to say that I am not trying to excuse bad behavior, just put up an explanation. This kind of stuff is where PTSD comes from too. The young men sometimes have to shut down emotionally just to do their jobs.

It's hard for some to understand this. We don't experience in our cubicles what soldiers experience in a war zone.

There is no misunderstanding here. The reaction to this woman possibly getting blown up (laughing) I can put a cause on it however distasteful I might find it. What I wanted to know if how far does that lend to other behaviors. the reactions I received regarding Abu Ghraib gave me my answer. If some want to shrug their shoulders at putting people on leashes, piling them up naked while giving the thumbs up - calling it eye for an eye - whatever.

One way is by enlisting, without question, regardless of age or gender or insanity, all those vehemently in favor of blindly following their leaders' crusades for whatever reasons they be, and releasing from service all other personnel currently serving under stop-loss orders or otherwise have expressed legal and moral reservations about serving in a highly questionable engagement such as is Iraq.

Care to join up and fight this terror campaign?

[Moto-zutto 0]

I'm in the military, i've done 4 tours over there, and I think it was wrong to laugh at it, but no one was hurt. you should see all the video's I see of Sniper attacks and IED attacks on video. laughing and praying for as many American deaths as possible. Yet their videos show them killing U.S. Troops, but it's not posted on you tube or shown on the news, and the ones you have seen are the less graphic videos, there are 100's of these videos, for training purposes of course... what to look for and what not.

there is nothing funny about being over there

[HAL 9000 96]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

I have a hard time believing that, as idiotic and reprehensible as they could be, military training and the rules of engagement would somehow escape these servicemen. Unless, of course, those aspects of military discipline aren't important.