Let down by USA forces once again

[LaL 418]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

that's about the summation of it.

care to take a shot at the questions i posed?

Yes sure - I could argue that the sodomy, abuse and torture fits into your "physical damage" inquiry but what would be the point? You don't seem to think these are unacceptable. If you do, you certain haven't said so.

But hey, its just a PR nightmare.

Edited August 12, 2008 by LaL

[HAL 9000 96]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=977_1218460000

The way they laughed sounds like the first symptoms of mental health issue that many soldiers are saffering from, if feel sory for the innocent woman and our soldiers. many of them are still young.

Which begs another question...

What realistic psych options do these soldiers really have? We usually hear in press of cases where soldiers are brushed/punished off when they do bring forward their 'problems' in coping with battle stress and other issues.

[Ban Hammer 13,279]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

and then the usual suspects showing up saying they shouldn't have been there to begin with

and lal - much of that sounds to me like a typical fraternity hazing.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

According to you miss high and mighty!

Yeah, I am up on my high horse looking down on those of you who think that putting on the US uniform means you can put down your ethical values, set them aside for a later date when you might need them. Too bad.

Now that is uncalled for. No one has suggested that ethics are suspended when in uniform. I would venture a guess that the men in the clip would be shocked at their own laughter (or at least made uncomfortable) years after, God willing, they return home safely.

God willing they do return home safely and intact... physically and [sic] mentally.

Unfortunately, given even some VJers complete disregard for basic human dignitiy in light of some very common and well-known problems facing us as a nation and planet, I somehow doubt that much progress can be expected.

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

That usually is the MO whenever a critique is made of certain elements of US foreign policy.

**GASP** Are you suggesting that VJ is representative of....of.....the insensitivity of Americans for human dignity??? And here I am just thinking some of us don't like each other!!

[HAL 9000 96]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

and then the usual suspects showing up saying they shouldn't have been there to begin with

and lal - much of that sounds to me like a typical fraternity hazing.

Why? The premise argued here by those usual suspects is one of human dignity and following rules. Its called being equal in scope under equal considerations.

[HAL 9000 96]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

According to you miss high and mighty!

Yeah, I am up on my high horse looking down on those of you who think that putting on the US uniform means you can put down your ethical values, set them aside for a later date when you might need them. Too bad.

Now that is uncalled for. No one has suggested that ethics are suspended when in uniform. I would venture a guess that the men in the clip would be shocked at their own laughter (or at least made uncomfortable) years after, God willing, they return home safely.

God willing they do return home safely and intact... physically and [sic] mentally.

Unfortunately, given even some VJers complete disregard for basic human dignitiy in light of some very common and well-known problems facing us as a nation and planet, I somehow doubt that much progress can be expected.

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

That usually is the MO whenever a critique is made of certain elements of US foreign policy.

**GASP** Are you suggesting that VJ is representative of....of.....the insensitivity of Americans for human dignity??? And here I am just thinking some of us don't like each other!!

No need to gasp... just read the statement ( no offense ). *Some* usually represents a fraction of a total sum. And at minimun I'd say that at least 50% of VJers are USCs, hence 'Americans' and hence, somewhat representative of the US population. If not then I don't know what the heck we are that call ourselves 'Americans.'

FWIW I personally only dislike AJ and PH. J/K. If there are people here that dislike each other then that just means they have got to detach themselves from their computers a little more.

[amiquechu 0]

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

so what? do you want a war crime trial for them laughing in a combat zone?

Somebody get these guys indicted on laughing charges

[Ban Hammer 13,279]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

and then the usual suspects showing up saying they shouldn't have been there to begin with

and lal - much of that sounds to me like a typical fraternity hazing.

Why? The premise argued here by those usual suspects is one of human dignity and following rules. Its called being equal in scope under equal considerations.

you might wanna hang out at frat houses, i hear there's lots of problems with human dignity and suffering going on during pledge week.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Look it's really very simple. Ethically, laughing at a woman who is probably, although not certainly, an innocent civillian as she teeters between life and death is not acceptable. There might be a million excuses why it happens, but on at an ethical level it is not right.

Whether there should be any punishment/consequence for doing so, that is entirely different matter.

Anyone who thinks that laughing in this situation is acceptable is beneath contempt.

According to you miss high and mighty!

Yeah, I am up on my high horse looking down on those of you who think that putting on the US uniform means you can put down your ethical values, set them aside for a later date when you might need them. Too bad.

Now that is uncalled for. No one has suggested that ethics are suspended when in uniform. I would venture a guess that the men in the clip would be shocked at their own laughter (or at least made uncomfortable) years after, God willing, they return home safely.

God willing they do return home safely and intact... physically and [sic] mentally.

Unfortunately, given even some VJers complete disregard for basic human dignitiy in light of some very common and well-known problems facing us as a nation and planet, I somehow doubt that much progress can be expected.

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

That usually is the MO whenever a critique is made of certain elements of US foreign policy.

**GASP** Are you suggesting that VJ is representative of....of.....the insensitivity of Americans for human dignity??? And here I am just thinking some of us don't like each other!!

No need to gasp... just read the statement ( no offense ). *Some* usually represents a fraction of a total sum. And at minimun I'd say that at least 50% of VJers are USCs, hence 'Americans' and hence, somewhat representative of the US population. If not then I don't know what the heck we are that call ourselves 'Americans.'

FWIW I personally only dislike AJ and PH. J/K. If there are people here that dislike each other then that just means they have got to detach themselves from their computers a little more.

The gasping was histrionic - no offense taken at all.

[Ban Hammer 13,279]

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

so what? do you want a war crime trial for them laughing in a combat zone?

Somebody get these guys indicted on laughing charges

war is serious business. no laughing allowed!

[amiquechu 0]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

and then the usual suspects showing up saying they shouldn't have been there to begin with

and lal - much of that sounds to me like a typical fraternity hazing.

Why? The premise argued here by those usual suspects is one of human dignity and following rules. Its called being equal in scope under equal considerations.

you might wanna hang out at frat houses, i hear there's lots of problems with human dignity and suffering going on during pledge week.

I can vouch for that No sodomy though unless you count the sheep...but that's not a human dignity issue

Edited August 12, 2008 by SKTEAMO

[HAL 9000 96]

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

so what? do you want a war crime trial for them laughing in a combat zone?

Somebody get these guys indicted on laughing charges

Perhaps endangerment of civilians during wartime would be a better charge. Fourth Geneva Convention covers that.

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

and then the usual suspects showing up saying they shouldn't have been there to begin with

and lal - much of that sounds to me like a typical fraternity hazing.

Why? The premise argued here by those usual suspects is one of human dignity and following rules. Its called being equal in scope under equal considerations.

you might wanna hang out at frat houses, i hear there's lots of problems with human dignity and suffering going on during pledge week.

Yeah so I hear. Yet dumba$$ neophytes ask for it, don't they? I somehow doubt the Iraqi population was waiting for our invasion.

But if I had a choice back in those days I'd rather hang out at Sorority houses instead during 'initiations.'

Edited August 12, 2008 by maviwaro

[Ggreen 12]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

and then the usual suspects showing up saying they shouldn't have been there to begin with

and lal - much of that sounds to me like a typical fraternity hazing.

Luky Strike calls Muslims usual suspects, i am not a muslim, i do respect them as i respect other religions.

[Ban Hammer 13,279]

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

and then the usual suspects showing up saying they shouldn't have been there to begin with

and lal - much of that sounds to me like a typical fraternity hazing.

Why? The premise argued here by those usual suspects is one of human dignity and following rules. Its called being equal in scope under equal considerations.

you might wanna hang out at frat houses, i hear there's lots of problems with human dignity and suffering going on during pledge week.

I can vouch for that No sodomy though unless you count the sheep...but that's not a human dignity issue

i suppose that depends on if the frat members photograph you and send the pics to your parents

Abu Ghraib was much more than a PR nightmare. You have to be kidding.

I'm sure that if it were Americans being subjected to such treatment in any prison/detention facility, domestically or internationally, there would be quite an outrage.

and then the usual suspects showing up saying they shouldn't have been there to begin with

and lal - much of that sounds to me like a typical fraternity hazing.

Luky Strike calls Muslims usual suspects, i am not a muslim, i do respect them as i respect other religions.

the usual suspects in the above context refers to people here in vj

[Peikko 1,575]

Well, ask that question to Charles as he was busily defending their actions not so long ago. Ex military man and all and he doesn't think those guys are louts and bring disgrace to the US uniform? What about all those suckers who go through years of this #### and don't turn into gibbering morons, are they slow or something?

Yeah, I get it, some people react badly to these appalling situations. I know, but it doesn't make it freaking acceptable.

when you've been there and done that, then your words might carry some weight with me. until then, they are dismissed as rantings by someone who's never been in the position where any second death can come calling. be it a sniper bullet, artillery, or even a land mine.

It's only uncalled for if you take my statements and twist them into some rabid insult against the US army per se. It was very simple. It's not acceptable for soldiers to behave in that way. It may be understandable, but it's not acceptable. That was my point, very clear and succinct but oh no, people have to get up on their 'anti American' band wagon and start going off on all these rants about how 'those sitting in their cubicles and have no knowledge of' blah blah blah blahde blah.

so what? do you want a war crime trial for them laughing in a combat zone?

can you justify Abu Ghraib in the same way, Charles?

when the thread deals with abu ghraib, then we'll address it.

No biggie - I was trying to discern what lengths are acceptable behavior for soldiers under stress. For some, Abu Ghraib is, which I find deplorable.

while abu ghraib is a pr nightmare, was anyone killed, maimed, or lost a limb or eyesight?

eta: any permanent physical damage from what was done in those photos?

That is such a silly response. On the one hand you find it ok for troops to behave in an unethical fashion because they are exposed to a dehumanising enviroment, but on the other you think that prisoners exposed to a dehumanising environment can't be damaged. Which is it?

As for the justification, I get it, yes, it's one possible response to difficult stress triggers but is it a response that one should just shrug one's shoulder's at and say, well, it's understandable? Or, more reasonably should one express disquiet at this inappropriate response to this situation and seek to address it?

Clearly, you are of the 'brush under the carpet it doesn't matter' variety.