Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Brad and Vika 129]

And what nation would that be?? If you saw the press conference this morning - Conde (for all her many faults) managed to keep a straight face while Sakashvilli ranted for 30 minutes about Russian barbarism. No wonder Putin is pissed at him. That being said - I read that the pro-Russian paramilitary attacked the Georgians first.

Sakashvilli has admitted to invading South Osettia. His justification is that South Osettia is part of Georgia, and he has every right to do so. What he conveniently glosses over is the status quo situation that's existed for many, many years, of Russian "peacekeeping" forces in that region. Whether you agree that the Russians should have been there in the first place, they were there. As I said before, I think Sakashvilli naively believed that the US would come to his aid when the inevitable Russian retaliation came. Imagine his surprise when he realized that the US really has no desire to participate in a 3rd theater of war, especially against a foe with actual teeth.

But that's not all we can do for America. An armed people, trained and proficient in the use of those arms doesn't get lined up and shot and their women and kids don't get taken as "sexual hostages." When we allow ourselves to be victimized, even by a govt., we allow ourselves to become subject to the will of aggressors.

And, before you start arguing about guns just cause more war and more fighting, remind me of the last time America was invaded and atrocities were commited on our soil.

6 months ago I'd have disagreed with you. But things have deteriorated so badly within this country, that I'm of the mindset now that a well armed populace is necessary to keep its own government in check. And while I absolutely don't advocate an overthrow of our government, I do believe it's necessary for our government to be afraid of its people. For the first time in my life, I'll probably own a gun within the next 4-6 months.

Wrong-O. All they lack is the right military advisors (i.e. ours) to teach them to not run away from the great bear.

Actually the Georgian Army was trained by the US.

You are, of course correct, but no one seems to understand what the US military trained the Georgians to do. It was not trained to fight Russian armored columns, it was trained to engage in small unit counter insurgency tactics to keep some of the undesireables from crossing thier borders from Dagestan and setting up shop in thier remote mountain regions and causing trouble. Sakashvilli overplayed his hand, by thinking that a military trained in counterinsurgency work could take on a front line battle objective, and that the Russians would not get involved. The Roki tunnels destruction should have been the opening salvo of the battle, not the capital of S. Ossieta, to keep the Russians from an easy, quick route to the heart of the battle. Of course, this would only have prolonged the inevitable. The only reason that I can think of that they left that tunnel alone is that they didnt want to compound humanitarian issues as the closing of the tunnel would have left the S. Ossietans nowhere to go to escape the battle zone.

That is what I meant - trained for this type of conflict. I just can't accept that the current level of action is justified, although the statement about half measures is well taken.

[PJB 0]

Today's Los Angeles Times quotes an anonymous "American Official" saying that sanctions may be imposed against Russia. One of the sanctions he listed was restricting visas for Russians. This has me worried most of all............

[Brad and Vika 129]

Today's Los Angeles Times quotes an anonymous "American Official" saying that sanctions may be imposed against Russia. One of the sanctions he listed was restricting visas for Russians. This has me worried most of all............

I've got to believe that K visas would be the last sort to be restricted, because thet are done at the request of a USC. Especially a K-3.

[PJB 0]

But if America restricts visas for Russians, Russia will restrict visas for Americans (reciprocity). Which means those of us who have a spouse in Russia won't be able to visit during this long stupid visa wait. Also if we want to visit relatives there it could be complicated or impossible. Then our Russian spouses with American citizenship could have trouble trying to visit back home and may run the risk of not being able to get back here.

[Brad and Vika 129]

But if America restricts visas for Russians, Russia will restrict visas for Americans (reciprocity). Which means those of us who have a spouse in Russia won't be able to visit during this long stupid visa wait. Also if we want to visit relatives there it could be complicated or impossible. Then our Russian spouses with American citizenship could have trouble trying to visit back home and may run the risk of not being able to get back here.

It could get tough for USCs, but wouldn't she be in effect a dual citizen? So Russia wouldn't recognize her US passport, and she would use the Russian one. Vice-versa here.

[Ilya R. 0]

What about Cr-1 Visas, any ideas if they could be affected?

[Brad and Vika 129]

What about Cr-1 Visas, any ideas if they could be affected?

Sorry Ilya - no idea

[slim 1,525]

Is this the site? http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ . (wow, that's some annoying intro music, and no way to turn it off that I can see!) Thanks for the info, I'll check them out. I was actually looking into a hand gun for starters, but I'm thinking of a rifle in the long term, so I'll have to keep your offer in mind, if for anything else than to buy you a beer.

That's the one! The music (drum beat) actually shuts off after a few seconds.

Offer stands for mox and for everyone. You get a rifle and get to an Appleseed, I'll get there to instruct you.

Mox, a good gun for the home is a winchester defender or maybe a 357 large frame revolver loaded with 38 glaser rounds.

I'll give a big for the Winchester Defender. A 12 gauge pump is about the best thing for a "newbie" to use (I know you're not 100% green, mox, but I bet you didn't do very many house to house combat drills in the Navy.) because not only does it intimidate the poop out of the bad guys, but it's relatively easy to use and highly unlikely that you'll miss your target. Plus, even as big as it is, collateral damage is pretty low with shot shells. Plus, it's PRK (People's Republic of Kalifornia) friendly.

A friend of mine is selling his Sig P220. Everything I've read about the gun says it's a pretty decent gun. Anyone have thoughts?

Very good all-around gun. The military was actually going to adopt the P220 instead of the Beretta 92FS but ended up with the Beretta becuase of legalities/contract issues, NATO influence, etc. Certain special units (CID, NCIS, even the FBI) have the P220 as standard issue.

But watch the price though.... depending on condition, a good used one with 2 clips should fall between $500-$600. If he wants more than that, barter a little or head to the pawn shop or gun show.

On that note, I traded for a Para Ordnance Warthog today at the gun show. What an appropriate name because it's a little monster!

Today's Los Angeles Times quotes an anonymous "American Official" saying that sanctions may be imposed against Russia. One of the sanctions he listed was restricting visas for Russians. This has me worried most of all............

I've got to believe that K visas would be the last sort to be restricted, because thet are done at the request of a USC. Especially a K-3.

Once again, restrictions, sanctions, etc. do not relate to K-1/3 visa processing. Short of closing the embassy down your visa will not be delayed any more than it already is.

[mox 298]

That's the one! The music (drum beat) actually shuts off after a few seconds.

Offer stands for mox and for everyone. You get a rifle and get to an Appleseed, I'll get there to instruct you.

Cool. I'm so gonna take you up on that if I ever get a rifle.

I'll give a big for the Winchester Defender. A 12 gauge pump is about the best thing for a "newbie" to use (I know you're not 100% green, mox, but I bet you didn't do very many house to house combat drills in the Navy.) because not only does it intimidate the poop out of the bad guys, but it's relatively easy to use and highly unlikely that you'll miss your target. Plus, even as big as it is, collateral damage is pretty low with shot shells. Plus, it's PRK (People's Republic of Kalifornia) friendly.

Yeah I pretty much re-qualified on the .45 every year...ish. It wasn't required though (most sailors aren't qualified on anything after boot camp), but I usually did it anyway to get out of some shitty little duty project or other--for some cool reason pistol quals day seemed to pop up right around the annual "walk around the base all day and pick up #######" day. Never qualified on shotgun or anything else though.

But watch the price though.... depending on condition, a good used one with 2 clips should fall between $500-$600. If he wants more than that, barter a little or head to the pawn shop or gun show.

He's cutting me a pretty good deal, $500 and he's only shot it a couple times. It's practically new, with the addition of some aftermarket (Hogue) grips and 2 extra clips.

Over father's day I was back in Denver with the family, and we took all the dads out. My uncle loves to start political arguments with me because he's pretty far right, while I'm left on most issues. He starts in on his "why do you want to take my guns away?" and I'm like "hell, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm in the market for a gun myself. In fact, I might just join the NRA." He almost had a stroke, poor guy. I completely shattered his world view. I actually have no intention of joining the NRA though. I do believe in extremely minimal levels of gun control (i.e. keeping mortars and anti-tank weapons out of civillian hands), and I don't think the NRA is going to stop until you can have a stinger missile system for home defense. This sets me apart from those liberals who really do want to take away your/our 5th amendment rights, but hey, I likes me some dolphin with my tuna too, so meh.

[slim 1,525]

Cool. I'm so gonna take you up on that if I ever get a rifle.

That should say when I get a rifle, right? And for Appleseed, a simple Ruger 10/22 from Wal-Mart works quite well.

Yeah I pretty much re-qualified on the .45 every year...ish.

So you're pretty much starting all over again. It's like riding a bike, but your proficiency is perishable.

He's cutting me a pretty good deal, $500 and he's only shot it a couple times. It's practically new, with the addition of some aftermarket (Hogue) grips and 2 extra clips.

$500 would be a great deal for that gun. Jump on it!

Over father's day I was back in Denver with the family, and we took all the dads out. My uncle loves to start political arguments with me because he's pretty far right, while I'm left on most issues. He starts in on his "why do you want to take my guns away?" and I'm like "hell, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm in the market for a gun myself. In fact, I might just join the NRA." He almost had a stroke, poor guy. I completely shattered his world view. I actually have no intention of joining the NRA though. I do believe in extremely minimal levels of gun control (i.e. keeping mortars and anti-tank weapons out of civillian hands), and I don't think the NRA is going to stop until you can have a stinger missile system for home defense.

The NRA is kind of a touchy subject for me too. As of right now, I'm not a member because the entire political process disgusts me. However, they're about the only people doing anything worthwhile in Washington to protect RKBA and like all other things in Washington, the only thing that matters is money and votes. I'll probably be joining in the near future so I can "stand and be counted" (and put some of my money to good use lobbying Congressmen.)

This sets me apart from those liberals who really do want to take away your/our 5th amendment rights, but hey, I likes me some dolphin with my tuna too, so meh.

That dolpin tuna is good. A little mayo and some mustard....mmmm delicious. However, I don't know if that has anything to do with keeping our guns. It may have something to do with keeping us from incriminating ourselves though. (Thanks, Miranda!)

[PJB 0]

But if America restricts visas for Russians, Russia will restrict visas for Americans (reciprocity). Which means those of us who have a spouse in Russia won't be able to visit during this long stupid visa wait. Also if we want to visit relatives there it could be complicated or impossible. Then our Russian spouses with American citizenship could have trouble trying to visit back home and may run the risk of not being able to get back here.

It could get tough for USCs, but wouldn't she be in effect a dual citizen? So Russia wouldn't recognize her US passport, and she would use the Russian one. Vice-versa here.

My husband will come in on K3 visa but his mother is in her 80s and if something happens to her he wants to be able to get back to Russia quickly (and be able to come back to the US without any delays or problems). I am the USC but want to be able to visit him while we wait for the immigration process. Already all the new Russian visa restrictions and registration headaches are making getting back and forth difficult and stressful. Add to that the fear that Passport Control will not let one of us through is just too stressful. Last fall Russian Passport control refused exit to a French citizen who is the wife of a duma member. She has legal permanent residency in Russia and had just renewed her documents in Moscow. But they passed a new law and overnight everyone who had permanent residency needed NEW documents which take weeks or months to get. Just one of the fun little games that this stupid cold war mentality created.............

[Brad and Vika 129]

But if America restricts visas for Russians, Russia will restrict visas for Americans (reciprocity). Which means those of us who have a spouse in Russia won't be able to visit during this long stupid visa wait. Also if we want to visit relatives there it could be complicated or impossible. Then our Russian spouses with American citizenship could have trouble trying to visit back home and may run the risk of not being able to get back here.

It could get tough for USCs, but wouldn't she be in effect a dual citizen? So Russia wouldn't recognize her US passport, and she would use the Russian one. Vice-versa here.

My husband will come in on K3 visa but his mother is in her 80s and if something happens to her he wants to be able to get back to Russia quickly (and be able to come back to the US without any delays or problems). I am the USC but want to be able to visit him while we wait for the immigration process. Already all the new Russian visa restrictions and registration headaches are making getting back and forth difficult and stressful. Add to that the fear that Passport Control will not let one of us through is just too stressful. Last fall Russian Passport control refused exit to a French citizen who is the wife of a duma member. She has legal permanent residency in Russia and had just renewed her documents in Moscow. But they passed a new law and overnight everyone who had permanent residency needed NEW documents which take weeks or months to get. Just one of the fun little games that this stupid cold war mentality created.............

I hear that. Small consolation that lots of USCs that actually want to visit relatives with there spouse will be in the same boat. Nothing to be done about changes to laws and regs, the target seems to move in Ukraine too - nature of the situation.

[NavarreMan 10]

Sorta back on topic:

Georgian President being presidential!

[mox 298]

What about Cr-1 Visas, any ideas if they could be affected?

Anything can still happen, including some kind of stupidity on either Georgia's or Russia's part. But it's pretty clear that Russia realize they have taken hostilities as far as they can take them, and they've begun a withdrawal. Of course, they'll draw it out as long as they can, and with no moral authority to lecture on occupations and withdrawal timetables, the US will hardly be in a position to rebuke them with any credibility. But I think the takeaway for VJ'ers is that the danger of revoking or refusing to issue visas to Russian citizens is pretty low now.

Cool. I'm so gonna take you up on that if I ever get a rifle.

That should say when I get a rifle, right? And for Appleseed, a simple Ruger 10/22 from Wal-Mart works quite well.

We'll see. For me right now, owning a hand gun is more a symbolic act than anything else. Over the last 7 years I've seen our personal freedoms erode to such a staggering degree, that I've decided to (as you so eloquently put it) "stand up and be counted." That's not to say I'm going to buy it and then stick it in the closet, never to be seen again. I plan on maintaining proficiency, and even having some fun on the target range occasionally. But for now I'm just gonna see how this goes.

Yeah I pretty much re-qualified on the .45 every year...ish.

So you're pretty much starting all over again. It's like riding a bike, but your proficiency is perishable.

Yep yep.

He's cutting me a pretty good deal, $500 and he's only shot it a couple times. It's practically new, with the addition of some aftermarket (Hogue) grips and 2 extra clips.

$500 would be a great deal for that gun. Jump on it!

Yeah, I'm pretty lucky. He's a good friend I've known for years. He was planning on asking (I think) $700 at his local club.

The NRA is kind of a touchy subject for me too. As of right now, I'm not a member because the entire political process disgusts me. However, they're about the only people doing anything worthwhile in Washington to protect RKBA and like all other things in Washington, the only thing that matters is money and votes. I'll probably be joining in the near future so I can "stand and be counted" (and put some of my money to good use lobbying Congressmen.)

To me the NRA represents what happens when you take a good idea to extremes. Greenpeace is another example of good ideas gone bad (just for balance). I'm completely in favor of abolishing most gun control laws on the books, but the NRA scares me as much as the government. Until they stop sounding like frothing maniacs, they'll not see a dime from me.

Sorta back on topic:

Georgian President being presidential!

Heh...saw that this weekend. My guess is that he keeps a toothpick embedded in the tip of his tie to make preparing post-lunch/pre-news-conference's easier. See, he's just being efficient!

[Kotenochek 0]

Here is a page where you can read what actually is happening in Georgia,this page also has videos,they are georgian,but you still can see the picture of what is happening...

http://rustavi2.com/