Georgia/Russia Conflict

[mox 298]

The trend goes in the opposite direction, you know. We don't add value and truth, we ignore it more and more as time goes by.

True dat. However, I made a point some months ago that as long as Americans have our iPods and big screen TV's to keep us distracted, we won't really care about the inevitable decay of our Republic. But now, we have an economy that economies in shambles look at and say "damn, sucks to be you!" We have gas prices here in CA over $4.50/gallon. Consumer goods cost more and more, and even (the shrinking) middle class families have stopped taking vacations and buying iPods. So I wonder if Americans will finally start informing themselves, stop trusting our corrupt government, and start really demanding change. And truth. I think there's very little chance for this to actually happen, but I think the chances of it happening are better than, say, 2 years ago.

[mox 298]

Some interesting perspectives on the English version of Pravda, here. Whatever the realities are, these are the opinions of your average Russian on the street: The US not only backs Georgia, they acted in concert with Saakashvili on the invasion. Once again, the Bush administration proves itself completely unable to conduct foreign policy with anything but ineptitude. By strongly backing Georgia, and repeatedly condemning Russia (whether Russia deserves it or not), they only make it harder and harder for Russia to back down.

[1HappyGuy 45]

Regarding America's response to the fighting in Georgia you only had to watch the news networks. There was a story about the fighting and how Russian tanks were flowing into Georgia. Later that day it was disclosed that former presidential candidate John Edwards had an affair. That knocked anything about the war right out. It was only when that story died down and Russia escalated the fighting that it became big news.

If you ask most American's what they think about the fighting in Georgia, they will likely respond that we ended that war in 1865. But of course, if the Russians had invaded Georgia in USA, then they would have had a tougher time with the good old boys down there. Then the response would have been, "Will this affect NASCAR?"

Seriously, I heard John McCain talk this morning that Russia needs to back off or face serious consequences. Is he serious? What can we do or anybody else, short of direct military confrontation. Russia has been flexing its financial muscles all over Europe and getting them to bow down. Russia has begun to feel that no one can touch them and this is just the beginning.

Ever since Ukraine started talking about joining NATO the economic and diplomatic relations between them and Russia has been increasingly difficult. So, can anyone really be surprised by this action in Georgia. How does the dispute in Ossetia, a part of Georgia, justify Russia moving on Georgia in the Black Sea. Russian response is way over the top and they don't fear anyone.

[Okiebollweevil 0]

My wife has been following this quite closely on Russian TV, and it has convinced her that when she gets her citizenship in 9 days, who she is going to vote for. And I remember some story about how the Russian peacekeepers were asked by both countries Georgia and SO) to be in SO. That being said, I think the Russians are showing the world that they can do anything they want in the area, and perhaps it is a bit retalitory, but who can do anything to them, much more who cares? My wife has family friends in SO and is going to ask her mom what is happening to friends. She also said they had an American on Russian TV living in SO who spoke in English and outlined that his wife's family had many family members who had been killed, not by the Russians but the Georgians. If you kick the bear in the butt it is best to mind his claws. If you want to change the mentality in DC don't vote for incumbents, all they do is start raising funds for the next election cycle, they only look out for their interests and those of their financial supporters. Vote for the guy or gal who is least popular, who is willing to say we have many unpleasant situations we need to clean up here at home, so we need to attend to our own business, and get our house straightened up before we start importing our American "goodness" to other countries. Don't be surprised if you see the good ole USA being the next third world toilet that everyone wants to avoid, simply because our elected officials (read winners of the beauty or popularity contest armed with charming sound bites and no clue what to do) will not face the American people with some unpleasant truths and hard to swallow solutions to the problems that beset us.

[shikarnov 7]

Some interesting perspectives on the English version of Pravda, here. Whatever the realities are, these are the opinions of your average Russian on the street: The US not only backs Georgia, they acted in concert with Saakashvili on the invasion. Once again, the Bush administration proves itself completely unable to conduct foreign policy with anything but ineptitude. By strongly backing Georgia, and repeatedly condemning Russia (whether Russia deserves it or not), they only make it harder and harder for Russia to back down.

I'm no defender of President Bush, his policies, nor his administration. However, Pravda is a sensationalist rag magazine, even to the vast majority of the Russians with whom I interacted while there. Holding US foreign policy responsible for whatever garbage Pravda produces is hardly a fair way to measure its successes or failures.

Besides that, several sites around the globe are reporting that this was intentionally orchestrated to mire Russia with a major distraction so that they'll be less likely to intervene against an allied attack on Iran. If this was by design, and if it works well enough to keep the Russians out of the way during such an invasion, then I'd be hard press by any measure to call these moves blunders.

[shikarnov 7]

Russia has begun to feel that no one can touch them and this is just the beginning.

Very dangerous when nations begin to feel that way.

In some ways, I welcome a counterweight to the US power in the world. And in other ways, it's really frightening -- especially given the fact that Russia has decided to ally itself with some really unfriendly powers, often with the specific intention of opposing us.

I often wonder what would happen if tensions really got high. Would Russia even be safe for my wife to visit her family, or would her being married to an American make things difficult. Would it be safe for me. Hell, many people weren't too fond of me several years ago when things were relative good, and I had more than my share of close calls simply because of my blue passport.

Edited August 11, 2008 by shikarnov

[shikarnov 7]

True dat. However, I made a point some months ago that as long as Americans have our iPods and big screen TV's to keep us distracted, we won't really care about the inevitable decay of our Republic. But now, we have an economy that economies in shambles look at and say "damn, sucks to be you!" We have gas prices here in CA over $4.50/gallon. Consumer goods cost more and more, and even (the shrinking) middle class families have stopped taking vacations and buying iPods. So I wonder if Americans will finally start informing themselves, stop trusting our corrupt government, and start really demanding change. And truth. I think there's very little chance for this to actually happen, but I think the chances of it happening are better than, say, 2 years ago.

When I was in Russia, I found it hard to believe how little people cared for all the so-called "rights" that we cherish. Not one cared much about speech or religion. As long as they were left alone to get a decent job and had enough food to eat, they were fine and were easily able to ignore all the corruption, the propaganda, and sometimes outright violence. When protesters got beaten by police in StP and in Moscow last year (or was it longer?), he judged the protesters to be stupid morons.

Over the past 50 years, US progressives infused the "me me me" mentality into our society, we tend not to give much of a damn if something doesn't directly effect us. We sacrifice our society every day by focusing so intently on ourselves. It matters not if our fellows are being kept down, so long as our iPods continue to come in the mail, and the direct-deposit paychecks continue to be deposited.

Interestingly, even as the US became more individualistic because of selfishness, the Russians got to the same individualist point through an entirely different route: the every man/family for himself desperation of years following the USSR's demise. Now that's some interesting irony.

Edited August 11, 2008 by shikarnov

[kud 0]

But S. Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, are an altogether different story - Russia never claimed them as its own land. Please quote where Russia ever said "this is ours now"? Russian troops in the region are strictly peacekeapers to prevent the killing of local folks by the Georgian military.

Considering that it takes decades to get Russian Citizenship if ever but S. Ossettia and Abkhasia's received there Russian Passports in weeks I would say Russia is claiming it is there land.

[mox 298]

I'm no defender of President Bush, his policies, nor his administration. However, Pravda is a sensationalist rag magazine, even to the vast majority of the Russians with whom I interacted while there. Holding US foreign policy responsible for whatever garbage Pravda produces is hardly a fair way to measure its successes or failures.

Besides that, several sites around the globe are reporting that this was intentionally orchestrated to mire Russia with a major distraction so that they'll be less likely to intervene against an allied attack on Iran. If this was by design, and if it works well enough to keep the Russians out of the way during such an invasion, then I'd be hard press by any measure to call these moves blunders.

Yeah but that "rag" gets read by a lot of Russians. My point is that it doesn't matter what the reality is. The Bush administration is incapable of handling these perceptions on even the most basic level, and so the propaganda is allowed free reign. The US hasn't even remotely criticized Georgia for its behavior, and so the propaganda just writes itself. And our threats of "consequences" are a joke. We have a lame duck President, a congress who isn't about to authorize anything against Russia, we're bogged down in 2 wars, itching for a 3rd war, and we're gonna tell Russia about consequences? Russia's gonna be more worried about the Ukrainian blockade than whatever empty threats the US hurls their way.

I don't buy the "mired Russia" theory. The war in Georgia is of such small scale, that calling it a war is like calling an inflated condom The Hindenburg. They've got plenty of troops and equipment to bring to bear for any major conflicts that arise in Iran or elsewhere.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I'm no defender of President Bush, his policies, nor his administration. However, Pravda is a sensationalist rag magazine, even to the vast majority of the Russians with whom I interacted while there. Holding US foreign policy responsible for whatever garbage Pravda produces is hardly a fair way to measure its successes or failures.

Besides that, several sites around the globe are reporting that this was intentionally orchestrated to mire Russia with a major distraction so that they'll be less likely to intervene against an allied attack on Iran. If this was by design, and if it works well enough to keep the Russians out of the way during such an invasion, then I'd be hard press by any measure to call these moves blunders.

Yeah but that "rag" gets read by a lot of Russians. My point is that it doesn't matter what the reality is. The Bush administration is incapable of handling these perceptions on even the most basic level, and so the propaganda is allowed free reign. The US hasn't even remotely criticized Georgia for its behavior, and so the propaganda just writes itself. And our threats of "consequences" are a joke. We have a lame duck President, a congress who isn't about to authorize anything against Russia, we're bogged down in 2 wars, itching for a 3rd war, and we're gonna tell Russia about consequences? Russia's gonna be more worried about the Ukrainian blockade than whatever empty threats the US hurls their way.

I don't buy the "mired Russia" theory. The war in Georgia is of such small scale, that calling it a war is like calling an inflated condom The Hindenburg. They've got plenty of troops and equipment to bring to bear for any major conflicts that arise in Iran or elsewhere.

Sorry, did you say something Mox? I was listening to my iPod while watching my big screen plasma tv.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Brad and Vika

[mox 298]

Sorry, did you say something Mox? I was listening to my iPod while watching my big screen plasma tv.

[slim 1,525]

Just a hypothetical here guys.... but what if the U.S. and Russia really did get in a fight someday?

Could you "man the lines" against your S/O's countrymen?

I assume the govt. would get all 442 on us and send us to fight in the sandbox instead, but could you do it now? I know there are a few of us on here who trained, at length, to do just that but has it changed now that we have a "conflict of interests" here at home?

[shikarnov 7]

Just a hypothetical here guys.... but what if the U.S. and Russia really did get in a fight someday?

Could you "man the lines" against your S/O's countrymen?

I assume the govt. would get all 442 on us and send us to fight in the sandbox instead, but could you do it now? I know there are a few of us on here who trained, at length, to do just that but has it changed now that we have a "conflict of interests" here at home?

I'm no soldier, so I'm not sure if my answer is welcome. But, if I was, I think it'd depend on location and reason.

I wouldn't want to risk being the person who could potentially put a bullet into my brother-in-law's head over some stupid foreign policy blunder, the hunt for black gold, or the protection of corporate interests overseas. I'm not sure what sort of reason would qualify ultimately. Maybe if they wrote something bad about us in Pravda, I could do it.

Of course, the need for a good reason goes out the window if they're here. I'd like to think that everybody would work to thwart an actual invasion, regardless of the reason. After all, if anybody's going to take down this government, it should be us: the fat, lazy, iPod-listening, TV-watching, so-self-absorbed-that-brainwashing-is-unnecessary American people.

[mox 298]

Just a hypothetical here guys.... but what if the U.S. and Russia really did get in a fight someday?

Could you "man the lines" against your S/O's countrymen?

I assume the govt. would get all 442 on us and send us to fight in the sandbox instead, but could you do it now? I know there are a few of us on here who trained, at length, to do just that but has it changed now that we have a "conflict of interests" here at home?

It's a non-issue for me. I've already served my time in the Navy, and I just missed the new age cut-off for the Army, so I'm safe unless we invade Iran. But Shikarnov pretty much echoes my own sentiments. It would totally depend on the conflict. I won't fight anyone's war for "freedom" or oil. I don't think we'll see the likes of the cold war again in my lifetime (even against China) so the threat of invasion won't happen in my lifetime either. But if it did then of course I'd pick up arms against anyone who threatened to come between me and my iPod.

BTW, Russia are claiming an end to "military operations," so expect to see the photo ops any day now of President Medvedev on an aircraft carier with a big 'ol "Миссия выполнена!" sign behind him.

[Ilya R. 0]

Sarkozy and Medvedev announce the end of millitary operations in S. Ossetia, Georgia, and Abkhazia 16.00pm local time.