Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Neonred 3,569]

I've never payed much attention to this problem area but the way my wife explains it to me is exactly the same as what Ilya is saying.

[Blues Fairy 0]

I cannot say if it was genocide or not, but killing 1400 people in a surprise attack, just after the announcement of a truce, is definitely not a civilized thing to do. Killing hundreds of civilians is even less so. Mind that the total population of S. Ossettia is 80,000 (was before the Georgian attack). Most of them are Russian citizens.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I cannot say if it was genocide or not, but killing 1400 people in a surprise attack, just after the announcement of a truce, is definitely not a civilized thing to do. Killing hundreds of civilians is even less so. Mind that the total population of S. Ossettia is 80,000 (was before the Georgian attack). Most of them are Russian citizens.

It looks to me as though both sides have killed some civilians, and that is definitely a bad thing. My position through this entire debate is only that any country has the right to police its own territory. No country has the right to occupy its neighbors, or annex their territory. I am American, and my country is the worst offender in the world in this sense. We interfere with the sovereign rights of other countries all the time, and it is wrong IMO, no matter who is doing it. I think because some of the posters on this forum are Russian, or married to Russians, the position is, that the invasion or occupation of the country next door is wrong unless Russia is doing it. I respect the loyalty to Motherland, and the personal opinions of others, but take offense at being called patently wrong or lacking research because I disagree. After hours of that, I tend to respond in kind. Honestly both sides in this conflict are behaving badly.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I've never payed much attention to this problem area but the way my wife explains it to me is exactly the same as what Ilya is saying.

Hi Neon, I assume your wife is Russian? My FSU acquaintances here tend to fall mostly on the Georgian side if they are from some country other than Russia. If they are from Russia, they tend to believe Russia is somehow the aggrieved party.

[Blues Fairy 0]

No country has the right to occupy its neighbors, or annex their territory.

I think because some of the posters on this forum are Russian, or married to Russians, the position is, that the invasion or occupation of the country next door is wrong unless Russia is doing it.

Brad,

You are very wrong in supposing that "some posters"' Russian nationality has any bearing on the conclusions we draw from the available information. Trust me, I am very far from endorsing all Russia's politics by default and have no problem admitting Russia's mistakes when they are being made. But in this case the situation is completely different.

On the other hand, just because Russia has stronger military than Georgia and is well able to keep Saakashvili in check, does not automatically mean that Russia is the aggressor and the invader in this conflict. S. Ossettia is NOT part of Georgia, as it has declared independence in 1992 and effectively formed an independent state. Georgia wants it back, but does it mean Georgia has "the right to occupy its neighbors, or annex their territory" ©?

[Brad and Vika 129]

No country has the right to occupy its neighbors, or annex their territory.

I think because some of the posters on this forum are Russian, or married to Russians, the position is, that the invasion or occupation of the country next door is wrong unless Russia is doing it.

Brad,

You are very wrong in supposing that "some posters"' Russian nationality has any bearing on the conclusions we draw from the available information. Trust me, I am very far from endorsing all Russia's politics by default and have no problem admitting Russia's mistakes when they are being made. But in this case the situation is completely different.

On the other hand, just because Russia has stronger military than Georgia and is well able to keep Saakashvili in check, does not automatically mean that Russia is the aggressor and the invader in this conflict. S. Ossettia is NOT part of Georgia, as it has declared independence in 1992 and effectively formed an independent state. Georgia wants it back, but does it mean Georgia has "the right to occupy its neighbors, or annex their territory" ©?

Fairy, again, I respect your opinion, but I disagree here. Back to my example yesterday, would it be OK if N. Dakota declared its independence from the US and was "peacekept" by Canada? And even Russia says those troops are peacekeepers, not protecting Russian soil - but people. You can't have it both ways, either they are "peacekeepers" occupying foreign soil to protect Russian citizens (as a Russian cabinet member just told CNN two days ago), or the Russian troops are protecting their territory - and are not peacekeeping anything. The entire world including Russia shows Ossetia inside the borders of Georgia from what I can tell. Ossetia is a breakaway Georgian Republic. By your logic, Chechnya declared independence, so Russia's military action against that soveriegn state (not the terrorists - the newly formed Republic of Chechnya) was completely unjustified. I am simply applying the same rules to both Ossetia and Chechnya. And before we rehash it again - Kosovo was a multinational action called for by the UN, much different than one counrty unilaterally marching into another and saying "this is ours now".

[Neonred 3,569]

I've never payed much attention to this problem area but the way my wife explains it to me is exactly the same as what Ilya is saying.

Hi Neon, I assume your wife is Russian? My FSU acquaintances here tend to fall mostly on the Georgian side if they are from some country other than Russia. If they are from Russia, they tend to believe Russia is somehow the aggrieved party.

Wife was born and raised in Kyrgyzstan, lived in Ukraine, and then in Russia, but I am sure where you are from plays a very big part.

[Blues Fairy 0]

I am simply applying the same rules to both Ossetia and Chechnya. And before we rehash it again - Kosovo was a multinational action called for by the UN, much different than one counrty unilaterally marching into another and saying "this is ours now".

If you must compare S.Ossettia and Chechnya, please recall how Chechen leaders behaved towards its Russian population since Chechnya declared independence. Ethnic cleansings and terrorism as a matter of fact, just because they could. Also recall how Chechen terrorists trained by their Islamic "colleagues" in the Middle East invaded Dagestan and bombed Russian apartment buildings before the start of the second Chechen war.

But S. Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, are an altogether different story - Russia never claimed them as its own land. Please quote where Russia ever said "this is ours now"? Russian troops in the region are strictly peacekeapers to prevent the killing of local folks by the Georgian military. And the killing has been going on continuously throughout the past 15 years. Would you justify leaving a 80,000-people republic to the mercy of a brute who sneaks into small towns and kills peacekeeping troops and innocent folks, and then complains to the West that Russia was the one who started the invasion? He is a hypocrite and a tyrant and toppling him would be only beneficial; however Russia has no such plans so far, nothing beyond pushing him out of S.Ossettia and restoring peace.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Blues Fairy

[Bobalouie 0]

I am simply applying the same rules to both Ossetia and Chechnya. And before we rehash it again - Kosovo was a multinational action called for by the UN, much different than one counrty unilaterally marching into another and saying "this is ours now".

If you must compare S.Ossettia and Chechnya, please recall how Chechen leaders behaved towards its Russian population since Chechnya declared independence. Ethnic cleansings and terrorism as a matter of fact, just because they could. Also recall how Chechen terrorists trained by their Islamic "colleagues" in the Middle East invaded Dagestan and bombed Russian apartment buildings before the start of the second Chechen war.

But S. Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, are an altogether different story - Russia never claimed them as its own land. Please quote where Russia ever said "this is ours now"? Russian troops in the region are strictly peacekeapers to prevent the killing of local folks by the Georgian military. And the killing has been going on continuously throughout the past 15 years. Would you justify leaving a 80,000-people republic to the mercy of a brute who sneaks into small towns and kills peacekeeping troops and innocent folks, and then complains to the West that Russia was the one who started the invasion? He is a hypocrite and a tyrant and toppling him would be only beneficial; however Russia has no such plans so far, nothing beyond pushing him out of S.Ossettia and restoring peace.

I cant quote it directly, but how about Putin's proclimation "Georgia had lost the right to rule the breakaway province"? If that is not a clear indication of what Moscow may have in store for S. Ossieta, I dont know what would be, bearing in mind the nature of political inuendo.

I think the whole world knows that Georgia initiatied the conflict with S. Ossieta. I think what we are trying to get across is that Moscow's response is disproportiate to what they are facing. I mean, come on, Georgia's military of 18000 men, 128 tanks and small number of aircraft does not require a response that includes the Russian Navy, non nuclear ballistic missles and strategic bombers hitting targets well outside the conflict zone.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I am simply applying the same rules to both Ossetia and Chechnya. And before we rehash it again - Kosovo was a multinational action called for by the UN, much different than one counrty unilaterally marching into another and saying "this is ours now".

If you must compare S.Ossettia and Chechnya, please recall how Chechen leaders behaved towards its Russian population since Chechnya declared independence. Ethnic cleansings and terrorism as a matter of fact, just because they could. Also recall how Chechen terrorists trained by their Islamic "colleagues" in the Middle East invaded Dagestan and bombed Russian apartment buildings before the start of the second Chechen war.

But S. Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, are an altogether different story - Russia never claimed them as its own land. Please quote where Russia ever said "this is ours now"? Russian troops in the region are strictly peacekeapers to prevent the killing of local folks by the Georgian military. And the killing has been going on continuously throughout the past 15 years. Would you justify leaving a 80,000-people republic to the mercy of a brute who sneaks into small towns and kills peacekeeping troops and innocent folks, and then complains to the West that Russia was the one who started the invasion? He is a hypocrite and a tyrant and toppling him would be only beneficial; however Russia has no such plans so far, nothing beyond pushing him out of S.Ossettia and restoring peace.

OK - so what gives Russia (or any other country) the right to create a unilateral peacekeeping/occupation force, and place it in another country? I don't know how many different ways I can say the same thing, and each time you seem to ignore the substance of my response and go a different direction. Ossetia is a recognized part of Georgia, and no other country has the right to occupy or police it unilaterally. No matter what bad behaviour they engage in. That is the place of the UN (a multinational body of whom Russia is a member). If Georgia was crossing the boder into Russia - OK, but that isn't happening. I don't compare Ossetia and Chechnya - I am saying that if you apply the same rule to Georgia as to Chechnya, Russia should have stayed out of Georgia, or out of Chechnya -according to your own argument about any province declaring independence should be recognized. If Russia is entitled to recognize Ossetia in a unilateral manner as being independent, then the same rule requires Chechnya to be independent. They are not comparable at all - one is in Russia - one isn't. So Russia has the right to crack down on one, but not the other.

[Ilya R. 0]

I am simply applying the same rules to both Ossetia and Chechnya. And before we rehash it again - Kosovo was a multinational action called for by the UN, much different than one counrty unilaterally marching into another and saying "this is ours now".

If you must compare S.Ossettia and Chechnya, please recall how Chechen leaders behaved towards its Russian population since Chechnya declared independence. Ethnic cleansings and terrorism as a matter of fact, just because they could. Also recall how Chechen terrorists trained by their Islamic "colleagues" in the Middle East invaded Dagestan and bombed Russian apartment buildings before the start of the second Chechen war.

But S. Ossettia, as well as Abkhasia, are an altogether different story - Russia never claimed them as its own land. Please quote where Russia ever said "this is ours now"? Russian troops in the region are strictly peacekeapers to prevent the killing of local folks by the Georgian military. And the killing has been going on continuously throughout the past 15 years. Would you justify leaving a 80,000-people republic to the mercy of a brute who sneaks into small towns and kills peacekeeping troops and innocent folks, and then complains to the West that Russia was the one who started the invasion? He is a hypocrite and a tyrant and toppling him would be only beneficial; however Russia has no such plans so far, nothing beyond pushing him out of S.Ossettia and restoring peace.

OK - so what gives Russia (or any other country) the right to create a unilateral peacekeeping/occupation force, and place it in another country? I don't know how many different ways I can say the same thing, and each time you seem to ignore the substance of my response and go a different direction. Ossetia is a recognized part of Georgia, and no other country has the right to occupy or police it unilaterally. No matter what bad behaviour they engage in. That is the place of the UN (a multinational body of whom Russia is a member). If Georgia was crossing the boder into Russia - OK, but that isn't happening. I don't compare Ossetia and Chechnya - I am saying that if you apply the same rule to Georgia as to Chechnya, Russia should have stayed out of Georgia, or out of Chechnya -according to your own argument about any province declaring independence should be recognized. If Russia is entitled to recognize Ossetia in a unilateral manner as being independent, then the same rule requires Chechnya to be independent. They are not comparable at all - one is in Russia - one isn't. So Russia has the right to crack down on one, but not the other.

Maybe you'd know if you read that it was requested of Russia to be a peacekeeper between Osetians and Georgians. After their war UN gave them permission and Georgia directly requested it as so did Ossetia. Please dont apply same rules for Chechnya and Osetia, very sensitive in both case impossible to compare.

[Blues Fairy 0]

I think what we are trying to get across is that Moscow's response is disproportiate to what they are facing.

It's a war! Amazing how the country having the upper hand in an armed conflict automatically becomes the villain!

Let's remember Israel's effective counterattack against Lebanon following Hezbolla's offensive in 2006; of course most countries blamed Israel for "overdoing it", while the poor Lebanese had just blown up a couple of lousy Humvees and launched a few lousy rockets, what's the harm in that.

Moscow's response disproportionate, yeah right.

[mox 298]

It's a war! Amazing how the country having the upper hand in an armed conflict automatically becomes the villain!

Let's remember Israel's effective counterattack against Lebanon following Hezbolla's offensive in 2006; of course most countries blamed Israel for "overdoing it", while the poor Lebanese had just blown up a couple of lousy Humvees and launched a few lousy rockets, what's the harm in that.

Moscow's response disproportionate, yeah right.

I think both sides are the bad guys, but I do have to agree here. A disproportionate response is when a cop beats the ####### out of you for a minor traffic violation. There are no rules about appropriate response in war. You go to war to win, and that means you bring the most and biggest guns to bear. Anything else is a disservice to the soldiers on the ground.

The fact that the "disproportionate response" argument came from the US was laughably ironic, considering every armed conflict we've been involved in since Vietnam has involved disproportionate responses, because we learned in Korea and Vietnam that anything less invites failure. Russia understands that they don't have a lot of time to accomplish their goals before international opinion starts solidifying into more than just words, and the sooner they can get it done, the better for them.

Over 2,000 civilians have lost their lives now (compared to a handful of soldiers on both sides), and it sucks to see yet another war that at its core is once again all about oil. I hope a ceasefire can be worked out soon.

Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about military targets. Targeting civilians (and there is evidence both sides are doing it) is or should be a war crime, and I hope those who have engaged in it will be held accountable. Not likely of course, but one can hope.

Edited August 11, 2008 by mox

[Chuckles 0]

Whatever happens there, I am most dissapointed by America's response. Why airlift more Georgian forces into the conflict? Are we trying to escalate this? Why are we so pigheaded, only seeing the Georgian side? Politics of course...

I can't say Russia is any better, but I am so tired of politics and can't wait for the day (hopefully in my daughters time) where we place more value on truth then politics.

[slim 1,525]

but I am so tired of politics and can't wait for the day (hopefully in my daughters time) where we place more value on truth then politics.

The trend goes in the opposite direction, you know. We don't add value and truth, we ignore it more and more as time goes by.