Georgia/Russia Conflict

[mox 298]

I just did an informal poll of 3 of my co-workers. I asked "what's the first thing you think of when you think of Russia?" 2 of them immediately said "Georgia" so I told them to exclude recent news. Their cringe-worthy answers:

- "Chicken kiev!" (when I replied that Kiev was in Ukraine, not Russia, he said "oh, I thought Ukraine was where they sent all the political prisoners.")

- "That dude that Rocky beat."

- "Oh...oh...those...whaddya call em? Those nesting doll things."

Oy.

When Ukraine hosted Eurovision in 2005 they loosened their visa requirements to allow Europeans to enter easily, which in turn made it easier for them to bring their Euros to spend. We will see if Russia follows suit to allow more easy access.

I thought Europeans and Americans didn't need visas for Ukraine?

[1HappyGuy 45]

They did before Eurovision 2005. I have the passport to prove it.

[Ilya R. 0]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=140546

Very interesting article from neutral military expert.

[1HappyGuy 45]

That was an extremely detailed description of what someone thinks were the facts in Georgia. I found it interesting when someone asked about the references of the information the respondent said that the person he got the information from is very reliable, but he still didn't provide any specific references. I guess it can be believe as much as anything else.

[Ilya R. 0]

That was an extremely detailed description of what someone thinks were the facts in Georgia. I found it interesting when someone asked about the references of the information the respondent said that the person he got the information from is very reliable, but he still didn't provide any specific references. I guess it can be believe as much as anything else.

The poster is pretty reliable, and the author is quiet the expert.

Ofcourse you could chose and believe that its Putin posting.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Ilya R.

[slim 1,514]

Wouldn't Putin be considered an "expert" in the Georgia conflict? He is a high-level govt. official after all and with all his previous training, I'm sure MSNBC or Fox News would be more than happy to have him cover the story as their "advisor" on the whole thing. Hell, if Ollie North is an "expert" on the Iraq War, why not Putin on Russia?

[Korat 0]

I saw on the BBC this morning that the Brit Foreign Minister is in Ukraine to discuss an "alliance against Russian aggression" and accelerated NATO membership.

This is what's truly scary. Coupled with your other post from above, this is the "make it or break it" scenario. We can ignore a country like Georgia all day long but when Ukraine cries for help we're going to have no choice but to "ante up."

I truly hope it never comes to that, but that is probably a pretty accurate scenario of what will be the final "diplomatic" action of the Cold War. Escalation will soon follow.

Scary stuff. I hope by that time I'm safely on my beach somewhere sipping drinks with little umbrellas in them because that's going to get ugly. Real ugly.

Ukraine has over 200K troops and still some Nukes hanging around. No one is going to take out forceably. Ukraine is vulnerable financially Fragile economy that its leading trading partner and still has historical ties is Russia.

You just want an excuse to go to a sunny beach and drink. Don't lie to me.!!

[Korat 0]

Unless I'm translating wrong, this article on Gazeta.Ru's site seems to confirm the above AP story, and indicates that Russia didn't get the full support than it had hoped for from the Chinese et al -- although it didn't make as big a deal about the portions of the comments which disagreed with the Russian position.

The title says: that the all the countries who met in Dushanbe supported Russian actions in S.O., But there are sources that say they also support the borders of sovereign nation.

China cannot support it or they also be supporting Tibet's independence and lose claim to Taiwan. Not a chance.

[Korat 0]

Why should we go to war for Ukraine? or Georgia? To play who can p*ss the farthest with Russia? I'll put my nukes in Poland and you put your nukes in Cuba then we'll see who is the real king of the world.

NATO is a dinosaur that should have been torn down with the Berlin Wall. It's only purpose is to tease Russia with military threats. If some stupid little president of some stupid little NATO country decides to poke The Bear with a stick, then all of the NATO members have to blow up Europe to save face.

How brilliant.

You can say all day "it should be like this" or "it should be like that" but that doesn't change what it is. And NATO is an alliance. If someone in that alliance is attacked then the rest of the alliance is bound to lend a hand. Blow up Europe to save face? No. Blow up Europe to comply with our treaties? Yes.

So, what about these people, are they the silent majority?

Opinions don't really matter much in a war. Blowing stuff up seems to get noticed.

As soon as the Russian army leaves - guess who will come back to visit?

A "silent majority" has no choice but to be occupied by someone; in this case the lesser of two evils or the more powerful of the two evils depending on which side your sympathies lie.

========================================================

Did you guys catch the final Generation Kill on HBO? There was a good line one of the Marines said, "those who cannont kill will always be subject to those that will." Applies in Iraq, applies in Georgia... could very well apply right here someday if we're not careful.

Nato is a joke. Canadians, Brits, and Americans die in Afghanistan while others countries do nothing.

[Korat 0]

I saw that this morning too. But of course it was America. Anything we can do to provoke the Russians into getting their troops to overwhelm a smaller country is in our best interest.

You know, when the truth doesn't suit you, invent something. If you tell it enough times it must be the truth.

What's really sad now, is Georgia has lost a significant part of their country and they never really worked on a solution that could have been beneficial for all. From what I've read, a good portion of each of these regions is populated by Georgians, not Russians. So, what about these people, are they the silent majority?

Somehow you, as well as US media, forget to mention people who live in these "Georgian" regions.. They are NOT georgians or russians. There must be a reason why these regions are called Abhazia and Ossetia. Did it occur to anyone that these are actually nations, live people, with their own languages, history, culture???

It takes at least some knowledge of basic facts to make a more or less reasonable opinion. Of course unless you are ####### or Condi or a retard.

This conflict is about 700 years old. Abhazians and Ossetians just do not want to be a part of Georgia, not 700 years ago, not after wars of 1992, and especially not after Georgians bombed Tsginval at night, with all civilian population in it.

I know that US schools are not the best in the world in history or geography, so we probably just have to be glad average american does not think Russians are in Atlanta.

But hey, who cares anyway? After Iraq and Afghanistan and ones before them, anyone can bomb anyone, as long as they have a will and means.

As I have said before, the world is full of ethnic/cultural groups that do not feel that they are a part of the countries where they reside. No group can claim LEGITIMATE independence by virtue of their dissatisfaction OR by virtue of recognition by one major power and its satellites. Only widespread international support will do, and that is how stability is maintained, and borders are kept constant. So some of the S. Ossetians feel like they are not happy as Georgians, and DEFINITELY eventually want to be part of Russia - SO WHAT? When the Chechens believed they should NOT be part of Russia, was that OK? Of course not. Chechnya is a part of Russia, and NO one country can reset the border unilaterally. Why should Georgia and the international community tolerate unilateral independence of Chechnya if Russia itself doesn't? And please save the "in the anals of history" and "do more research" ####### arguments. Russia should probably be hundreds of separate republics and autonomous regions based on that kind of history and research. Internationally recognized borders must be respected unless there is a UN recognised cause to discuss altering them. This is true in Georgia, Iraq, and everywhere else.

I noticed that posters who advocated Russian action in Georgia as a purely defensive course that will be over in a few days got very quiet lately. Now there is open talk of annexation of Crimea. What will be the rationalization for this?

What is next? Brighton Beach joins Russia?

[Korat 0]

Kick the bear (not poke the bear) is the ticket. Obama-esque dialogue will NEVER be taken seriously by Russia. They respect only strength. They threaten to point nukes at Warsaw? We will point nukes at Moscow. Aim missiles at Prague? Good, we were looking for a reason to aim at Novgorod. They won't like it, but they will listen after that.

History doesn't back you up on this. Ronald Reagan is given a lot of credit for taking down the Soviet Union, but the strongest words he ever used with them was his "take down this wall" speech. But that was after 2 very historic summits wherein Reagan and Gorbechev simply sat down and talked to each other. Granted the USSR was headed towards collapse anyway, but those 2 summits did more for world peace than just about anything else.

Russia really doesn't want war, but they're not about to allow NATO to completely surround them. And honestly, can you blame them? The US has been acting like a colonial power for the last 8 years. If I were Russian, I would not trust the US or NATO at all. So it's only natural that they're going to posture. The trick for the US then is going to be to convince the Russians that we really are their friends, and that can only be done through dialogue.

For this group, it shouldn't be hard to understand this. When you need something from your Russian girl, what works best...a direct confrontation, or something a little more subtle? The Russian character responds much better to subtlety.

Yeah what did you get from her? Her knocked from another guy.

Russians admire power and strength. They think the west is weak and always will back down. Australia has decided that they cease exports of Uranium to Russia. Canada will do the same soon. Russia will have to kiss Kazakhstan's bum to get resources. Every Russian elite have spoken to, thinks the world needs Russia more than they need tthem. They have only 17 more years of oil left based on present reserves. They have hyper inflation and fragile banking system and housing bubble that is going to make the sub prime look small. The west have to unite and be strong. They are expecting us to be weak and can freeze us out.

[Korat 0]

You know just like a good Russian hockey player, I know one thing and it is attack, I dont know defense or backchecking. Damn stereotypes!!

sad but true.

Anyway I have no beef with anybody, sometimes I just like to clarify things to people of how I/we look at things from overseas

Konstantinov and Fetisov were awesome defencemen and were the reason Detroit won the Stanley cup. So you are wrong on that!!!

[Korat 0]

Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Sadly but true. Add Russians too (Don Cossaks and other instances). But not sure if "deporting" some (Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Russians, and Kulaks from any nation) to labor camps or Siberian exile can be defined as deportation or moving... Please do not forget that millions did not survive the "move".

But I heard Russians counter that the Americans moved the American natives off their land also. So how far can we go back?

[Ilya R. 0]

I saw on the BBC this morning that the Brit Foreign Minister is in Ukraine to discuss an "alliance against Russian aggression" and accelerated NATO membership.

This is what's truly scary. Coupled with your other post from above, this is the "make it or break it" scenario. We can ignore a country like Georgia all day long but when Ukraine cries for help we're going to have no choice but to "ante up."

I truly hope it never comes to that, but that is probably a pretty accurate scenario of what will be the final "diplomatic" action of the Cold War. Escalation will soon follow.

Scary stuff. I hope by that time I'm safely on my beach somewhere sipping drinks with little umbrellas in them because that's going to get ugly. Real ugly.

Ukraine has over 200K troops and still some Nukes hanging around. No one is going to take out forceably. Ukraine is vulnerable financially Fragile economy that its leading trading partner and still has historical ties is Russia.

You just want an excuse to go to a sunny beach and drink. Don't lie to me.!!

Actually Ukraine signed the Nuke NPT so they shouldn't have any nuclear weapons, all them should be disposed of or transferred to Russia or USA.

[Ilya R. 0]

You know just like a good Russian hockey player, I know one thing and it is attack, I dont know defense or backchecking. Damn stereotypes!!

sad but true.

Anyway I have no beef with anybody, sometimes I just like to clarify things to people of how I/we look at things from overseas

Konstantinov and Fetisov were awesome defencemen and were the reason Detroit won the Stanley cup. So you are wrong on that!!!

Okay 2 out of how many?

and plus they are both retired