Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Bobalouie 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

Right Ilya - it is easy for we unsorted americans to confuse the USSR and the country that controlled it (I am not joking here - we even used the terms Russia and USSR interchangeably). Even if this view is incorrect, it is VERY easy to believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary. It has been done in that part of the world before. If there is some radically different european reality, I really do want to hear it. When I ask the question, I only get insults, and I am now responding that way because I am so tired of it. You seem to be a staunch supporter of Putin, but also a rational person. Please tell us why Russia believes that only borders Russia wants to respect matter. Even if Russia defines the border, and then changes her mind later. I think it is completely wrong when any country does this.

I'll gladly explain to you what you want to hear. The problem might be that you just wont want to hear what I have to say.

First of all USSR regime and Russian Federation regime is very different. I really doubt in all of history of Russia there has been as much blood spilled as there has been since 1917 to 1960s. Soviet track record is very different than Russian, and thats the fact. Millions of Russians have suffered, at hands of their leaders during soviet rule. There was no such thing during Russian Fed.

And just because you believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary is complete bull ####. And yes there is a difference between who controlled the land. Just like during Original thirteen colonies and the great migration, and who controlled the land before and after. You dont see me reaching back to French and Indian war or to Colonists vs Indian conflict where a nation, actually where a race was wiped out, mostly.

So there is no radically different European reality, but there is a different reality to what you are not accustomed to. In your reality you just prioritize on different topics than we do, and then you want your priorities to be like ours, but that just is impossible. We are different people so please learn to respect our beliefs just like we respect yours. And we do respect American beliefs because we live in America now. Just, because you cant understand why Russia does not think it is to blame, I really dont know any other way to explain in to you. Russians were outraged at what happened in Kosovo, were completely against the invasion of Iraq, and What did America do? They didnt really give two shits of what Russia had to say. Which doesnt mean America was wrong at what they did, maybe at the time it was a right decision, just like Russia thought at the time it was a right decision to strike and face the criticism/consequences. So you can stick to your view or you could just accept that most of us have strong opinions about things that is impossible (or very hard) to undersand.

And I am not really that big of a Putin fan to be honest. But the facts speak the truth, Putin has done more for Russia than any other leader in last 40 years. Soviet or Russian. Maybe Russia is wrong in the eyes of the west, but I believe they did the right thing, and there are millions like me, and these opinions are not based of propaganda either. And this conflict just like Kosovo, just like Iraq, will soon be forgotten and no more outrages claims or comparison to Nazis will be made.

And just because you are tired of something on these boards doesnt mean you should react to it. I dont agree with 70% of posters on these boards, be it at open forum or here, but I dont go crazy and call people names because I am tired of their ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Thats a pretty good post right there Ilya, and you make some very good points.

[Chuckles 0]

Politians, and Politics in general, stink to high heaven. Russian, American, Georgian, British, French, Canadian... Doesn't matter. They are all a bunch of stinky turds.

I think that pretty much sums everything up.

[Korat 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

Germans on the Volga River (look at the community called Engel cross from Sartov). Chechens also.

[Korat 0]

P.S. Prior to Saakshvili regime, you could ask any Russian and most of them would call "Georgian People" as very humble very cultural and open to anyone.

Georgians would not responded the same way.

My former Russian teacher lived in Georgia in the 50's and she felt it very anti Russian.

Ossetians and Georgians have lived in peace for a long before USSR. When the USSR came in, rules were placed on them that change how people lived together. Ossentian language was not taught at school and cultural was not appreciated. Georgians did nothing to back their neighbours.

Much can be said about certain minorities in the USA. Although many Americans think that everything is good, in actuality they believe different. Surface can look much different than what is truly underneath.

Maybe I biased, because I have many good Georgian friends and we spoke much about this topic before the Rose Revolution and after it.

Georgians lived in peace with Ossetians? You dont seem to be making any sense. just random opinions without any historical backing. And I am def sure as I have lived in Russia in Georgians that I have known were different than you describe.

My teacher lived in Georgia for 6 months and Russia almost all her life.

I played rugby with Georgians and we talked quite honest. One on one, they love Russians, but it when the gov't gets involved.

[Korat 0]

I'm sorry to hear about the huge inflation increases in housing. My wife's apartment is in a building that isn't properly maintained. There is a mold problem in the lower floors, due to sitting water in the basement, that is continuing to grow up. Her apartment is on the 7th floor but we wonder how much longer before it gets that high.

I'm also saddened to hear about the 40% increase in natural gas. Of course, they rely on Russia for that resource, so we see the Russians again tightening the screws on their neighbors. Russia will use whatever means to destablized the former FSU's with the intent of regaining their power over them. This is how Putin plans to recover what was the soviet union. Only this time he will make is sound like they need the Russians to care for them and take over.

My GF apartment building worse than a public toilet. I love cats, but frig they are a pest and leave their waste everywhere. To pay for something like this for $50K is crazy.

The problem is that the Ukrainian economy is highly leveraged and it is potentially going to get worse.

[Korat 0]

I'm sorry to hear about the huge inflation increases in housing. My wife's apartment is in a building that isn't properly maintained. There is a mold problem in the lower floors, due to sitting water in the basement, that is continuing to grow up. Her apartment is on the 7th floor but we wonder how much longer before it gets that high.

I'm also saddened to hear about the 40% increase in natural gas. Of course, they rely on Russia for that resource, so we see the Russians again tightening the screws on their neighbors. Russia will use whatever means to destablized the former FSU's with the intent of regaining their power over them. This is how Putin plans to recover what was the soviet union. Only this time he will make is sound like they need the Russians to care for them and take over.

I am really sorry to hear that big bad Putin makes your wife's apartment building moldy.

By the way, currently people in Russia, St.Pete, paying more for natural gas than people in Ukraine, which really pisses most off. I lived there for a while and did not like that.

Think please before you blame Putin again, no matter how popular it is to do.

Lithuania and other Baltics are paying $300/1000m2 for gas, while Ukraine was paying $100, they turning this gas selling to East Europe big bad Russia selling gas and oil for too much is REALLY dumb.

They do not have to buy it. This is the US way too, isn't it? free market?

No, it is not Putin's fault. But you have a fragile economy and loose capital system. Even Russians have over spent their income and expect that future growth will maintain their lifestyle.

Inflation is crazy.

Good friend lives in a small city. An apartment in this city cost 50K. The mortgage rate is 12%. Cost to rent the flat is $300. The income from renting the flat does not cover the interest expense. So why do they buy? They expect capital appreciation. Homes in this city have tripled since I was there in 2003. Can this continue? No, because the average wage has only increased by 10% per year. So inflation is out stripping wage increases.

[Korat 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

Right Ilya - it is easy for we unsorted americans to confuse the USSR and the country that controlled it (I am not joking here - we even used the terms Russia and USSR interchangeably). Even if this view is incorrect, it is VERY easy to believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary. It has been done in that part of the world before. If there is some radically different european reality, I really do want to hear it. When I ask the question, I only get insults, and I am now responding that way because I am so tired of it. You seem to be a staunch supporter of Putin, but also a rational person. Please tell us why Russia believes that only borders Russia wants to respect matter. Even if Russia defines the border, and then changes her mind later. I think it is completely wrong when any country does this.

I'll gladly explain to you what you want to hear. The problem might be that you just wont want to hear what I have to say.

First of all USSR regime and Russian Federation regime is very different. I really doubt in all of history of Russia there has been as much blood spilled as there has been since 1917 to 1960s. Soviet track record is very different than Russian, and thats the fact. Millions of Russians have suffered, at hands of their leaders during soviet rule. There was no such thing during Russian Fed.

And just because you believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary is complete bull ####. And yes there is a difference between who controlled the land. Just like during Original thirteen colonies and the great migration, and who controlled the land before and after. You dont see me reaching back to French and Indian war or to Colonists vs Indian conflict where a nation, actually where a race was wiped out, mostly.

So there is no radically different European reality, but there is a different reality to what you are not accustomed to. In your reality you just prioritize on different topics than we do, and then you want your priorities to be like ours, but that just is impossible. We are different people so please learn to respect our beliefs just like we respect yours. And we do respect American beliefs because we live in America now. Just, because you cant understand why Russia does not think it is to blame, I really dont know any other way to explain in to you. Russians were outraged at what happened in Kosovo, were completely against the invasion of Iraq, and What did America do? They didnt really give two shits of what Russia had to say. Which doesnt mean America was wrong at what they did, maybe at the time it was a right decision, just like Russia thought at the time it was a right decision to strike and face the criticism/consequences. So you can stick to your view or you could just accept that most of us have strong opinions about things that is impossible (or very hard) to undersand.

And I am not really that big of a Putin fan to be honest. But the facts speak the truth, Putin has done more for Russia than any other leader in last 40 years. Soviet or Russian. Maybe Russia is wrong in the eyes of the west, but I believe they did the right thing, and there are millions like me, and these opinions are not based of propaganda either. And this conflict just like Kosovo, just like Iraq, will soon be forgotten and no more outrages claims or comparison to Nazis will be made.

And just because you are tired of something on these boards doesnt mean you should react to it. I dont agree with 70% of posters on these boards, be it at open forum or here, but I dont go crazy and call people names because I am tired of their ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Whta bout Gorbachev? He is one that completed a revolution to break up the traditional USSR. I know he is considered to be a sell out and hated in Russia.

Comparing the USSR is different, but when do you stop comparison. When the USA changes their president this year, can we forget everything that was done under GWB?

Germans are still reminded of WW2. Unfortunately, it will take a long time for Russia to lose the bad taste from the actions of the USSR. Chechens still are reminded when they forced out also. Ukrainians still remember the famine.

So when does this end? When trust is built up and all can be forgotten. Russia has not built up this trust as you can see by the reaction of the former block to the Georgian/ Russia conflict.

Somethings Putin has done has improved the banking system and pushed reforms in the manufacturing.

Biggest problem is that Putin promised reforms about the Oligarch and they are still pillaging the country.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Korat

[Fedup 0]

I'm sorry to hear about the huge inflation increases in housing. My wife's apartment is in a building that isn't properly maintained. There is a mold problem in the lower floors, due to sitting water in the basement, that is continuing to grow up. Her apartment is on the 7th floor but we wonder how much longer before it gets that high.

I'm also saddened to hear about the 40% increase in natural gas. Of course, they rely on Russia for that resource, so we see the Russians again tightening the screws on their neighbors. Russia will use whatever means to destablized the former FSU's with the intent of regaining their power over them. This is how Putin plans to recover what was the soviet union. Only this time he will make is sound like they need the Russians to care for them and take over.

I am really sorry to hear that big bad Putin makes your wife's apartment building moldy.

By the way, currently people in Russia, St.Pete, paying more for natural gas than people in Ukraine, which really pisses most off. I lived there for a while and did not like that.

Think please before you blame Putin again, no matter how popular it is to do.

Lithuania and other Baltics are paying $300/1000m2 for gas, while Ukraine was paying $100, they turning this gas selling to East Europe big bad Russia selling gas and oil for too much is REALLY dumb.

They do not have to buy it. This is the US way too, isn't it? free market?

No, it is not Putin's fault. But you have a fragile economy and loose capital system. Even Russians have over spent their income and expect that future growth will maintain their lifestyle.

Inflation is crazy.

Good friend lives in a small city. An apartment in this city cost 50K. The mortgage rate is 12%. Cost to rent the flat is $300. The income from renting the flat does not cover the interest expense. So why do they buy? They expect capital appreciation. Homes in this city have tripled since I was there in 2003. Can this continue? No, because the average wage has only increased by 10% per year. So inflation is out stripping wage increases.

I was referring to the logic of the post above.

As far as the inflation goes, and the real estate markets there, it' same in Russia. And some of the blame I would place on RE market speculations.

Same situation, even worse, is in Russia, esp. Moscow and St.Pete. Apartments cost more than in Manhattan or SF, and of course the quality is not the same. Do not think there is much more room for appreciation, so far the market was able to sustain such prices because very few actually pay money for apartments, mostly exchange purchases. So it's just a matter of time before the prices will stop going up. I'm curious to see what will happen to all these mortgages when they will flat out or go down.

Inflation is more or less usual for fast developing economies, and most new EU members experienced that too, in different levels of severity. In Russia prices of food skyrocketed too, way to fast for incomes to catch up for average consumer. But nothing to do with politics or "intent of regaining their power over them", more with economy gaining cash faster that it can absorb it.

[Korat 0]

I'm sorry to hear about the huge inflation increases in housing. My wife's apartment is in a building that isn't properly maintained. There is a mold problem in the lower floors, due to sitting water in the basement, that is continuing to grow up. Her apartment is on the 7th floor but we wonder how much longer before it gets that high.

I'm also saddened to hear about the 40% increase in natural gas. Of course, they rely on Russia for that resource, so we see the Russians again tightening the screws on their neighbors. Russia will use whatever means to destablized the former FSU's with the intent of regaining their power over them. This is how Putin plans to recover what was the soviet union. Only this time he will make is sound like they need the Russians to care for them and take over.

I am really sorry to hear that big bad Putin makes your wife's apartment building moldy.

By the way, currently people in Russia, St.Pete, paying more for natural gas than people in Ukraine, which really pisses most off. I lived there for a while and did not like that.

Think please before you blame Putin again, no matter how popular it is to do.

Lithuania and other Baltics are paying $300/1000m2 for gas, while Ukraine was paying $100, they turning this gas selling to East Europe big bad Russia selling gas and oil for too much is REALLY dumb.

They do not have to buy it. This is the US way too, isn't it? free market?

No, it is not Putin's fault. But you have a fragile economy and loose capital system. Even Russians have over spent their income and expect that future growth will maintain their lifestyle.

Inflation is crazy.

Good friend lives in a small city. An apartment in this city cost 50K. The mortgage rate is 12%. Cost to rent the flat is $300. The income from renting the flat does not cover the interest expense. So why do they buy? They expect capital appreciation. Homes in this city have tripled since I was there in 2003. Can this continue? No, because the average wage has only increased by 10% per year. So inflation is out stripping wage increases.

I was referring to the logic of the post above.

As far as the inflation goes, and the real estate markets there, it' same in Russia. And some of the blame I would place on RE market speculations.

Same situation, even worse, is in Russia, esp. Moscow and St.Pete. Apartments cost more than in Manhattan or SF, and of course the quality is not the same. Do not think there is much more room for appreciation, so far the market was able to sustain such prices because very few actually pay money for apartments, mostly exchange purchases. So it's just a matter of time before the prices will stop going up. I'm curious to see what will happen to all these mortgages when they will flat out or go down.

Inflation is more or less usual for fast developing economies, and most new EU members experienced that too, in different levels of severity. In Russia prices of food skyrocketed too, way to fast for incomes to catch up for average consumer. But nothing to do with politics or "intent of regaining their power over them", more with economy gaining cash faster that it can absorb it.

I agree that it is speculation and you see what happens with loose banks laws and speculation with Subprime in the USA. Russia has to start taking the spending out of the market place or it faces a crisis that makes the Subprime look like nothing.

Inflation, well that is the gov't problem also. Two reasons, wealth is not even distributed what so ever and it has become a class structure and if you do not belong to this class, then you are going to do well. Look at the life in the village versus living in Moscow. Second loose credit. There is no real laws or enforcement on credit and little savings also. Now with China's economy slowing down, Oil Production decreasing, maybe sanctions from the west, and Oligarchs who moved much of their wealth outside of the country instead of reinvesting it, Russia could be facing some trouble ahead.

[Ilya R. 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

Right Ilya - it is easy for we unsorted americans to confuse the USSR and the country that controlled it (I am not joking here - we even used the terms Russia and USSR interchangeably). Even if this view is incorrect, it is VERY easy to believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary. It has been done in that part of the world before. If there is some radically different european reality, I really do want to hear it. When I ask the question, I only get insults, and I am now responding that way because I am so tired of it. You seem to be a staunch supporter of Putin, but also a rational person. Please tell us why Russia believes that only borders Russia wants to respect matter. Even if Russia defines the border, and then changes her mind later. I think it is completely wrong when any country does this.

I'll gladly explain to you what you want to hear. The problem might be that you just wont want to hear what I have to say.

First of all USSR regime and Russian Federation regime is very different. I really doubt in all of history of Russia there has been as much blood spilled as there has been since 1917 to 1960s. Soviet track record is very different than Russian, and thats the fact. Millions of Russians have suffered, at hands of their leaders during soviet rule. There was no such thing during Russian Fed.

And just because you believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary is complete bull ####. And yes there is a difference between who controlled the land. Just like during Original thirteen colonies and the great migration, and who controlled the land before and after. You dont see me reaching back to French and Indian war or to Colonists vs Indian conflict where a nation, actually where a race was wiped out, mostly.

So there is no radically different European reality, but there is a different reality to what you are not accustomed to. In your reality you just prioritize on different topics than we do, and then you want your priorities to be like ours, but that just is impossible. We are different people so please learn to respect our beliefs just like we respect yours. And we do respect American beliefs because we live in America now. Just, because you cant understand why Russia does not think it is to blame, I really dont know any other way to explain in to you. Russians were outraged at what happened in Kosovo, were completely against the invasion of Iraq, and What did America do? They didnt really give two shits of what Russia had to say. Which doesnt mean America was wrong at what they did, maybe at the time it was a right decision, just like Russia thought at the time it was a right decision to strike and face the criticism/consequences. So you can stick to your view or you could just accept that most of us have strong opinions about things that is impossible (or very hard) to undersand.

And I am not really that big of a Putin fan to be honest. But the facts speak the truth, Putin has done more for Russia than any other leader in last 40 years. Soviet or Russian. Maybe Russia is wrong in the eyes of the west, but I believe they did the right thing, and there are millions like me, and these opinions are not based of propaganda either. And this conflict just like Kosovo, just like Iraq, will soon be forgotten and no more outrages claims or comparison to Nazis will be made.

And just because you are tired of something on these boards doesnt mean you should react to it. I dont agree with 70% of posters on these boards, be it at open forum or here, but I dont go crazy and call people names because I am tired of their ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Whta bout Gorbachev? He is one that completed a revolution to break up the traditional USSR. I know he is considered to be a sell out and hated in Russia.

Comparing the USSR is different, but when do you stop comparison. When the USA changes their president this year, can we forget everything that was done under GWB?

Germans are still reminded of WW2. Unfortunately, it will take a long time for Russia to lose the bad taste from the actions of the USSR. Chechens still are reminded when they forced out also. Ukrainians still remember the famine.

So when does this end? When trust is built up and all can be forgotten. Russia has not built up this trust as you can see by the reaction of the former block to the Georgian/ Russia conflict.

Somethings Putin has done has improved the banking system and pushed reforms in the manufacturing.

Biggest problem is that Putin promised reforms about the Oligarch and they are still pillaging the country.

What about Gorbachev? He did a good thing in the eyes of the west, but what Russia has lost during this "PERESTROIKA" is unimaginable. Russia was like a roadkill and everyone was out for a feast. Everyone including all the republics, tried to make a quick buck steal and plunder. But thats another discussion.

I still dont understand where you are going with this, Russia is not USSR, Germany is Nazi Germany. Thats pretty clear, no? Russia is running under a different system, it is not under socialism/communism anymore. When I go to Germany I dont think of swastikas. But when Americans see Russians they think hammer and sickle.

When will what end? When will constant blame end? Chechens ? Yes great idea lets compare a Terrorist leaders that were connected to Al Quada and give them land in the middle of the country. Oh they only blew up civilian buildings, created hijacking of theaters, airplanes, blackmailing families and sending fingers to in the mail. And thats only tip of the iceberg. Russia has not build up trust you say, but Georgia did? Georgia has been conducting millitary actions since 91 always upgrading army, always sparring in conflicts with Ossetians and Abkhazians. Or how about a history lesson. Before Georgia was a part of USSR, what was so memorable what they did? Oh wait 1920's Georgia Invades, Abkhasia, Russia, Ossetian Rep. and goes North. Also attacked Armenia, and took the war all the way to Sochi. Killing and pillaging on the way. Does anyone remember that? Oops nope, not in our history books. Btw Georgia had a big brother back in the day too, British Empire. Very similar situation as right now. US of A.

And please dont be so naive about Putin. I dont have time to discuss him, but Oligarch pilaging the country? Yes, do you know how these Oligarch came to be? We return to where my post has started. Mr. Gorbachev, the Hero and a noble prize recipient. He created them by having a terrible reconstruction programs, having terrible privatization programs, by giving land away for free just to impress the west. Leaving billions of dollars of sophisticated military equipment in corrupt countries hands and much more... You cant erase Oligarchs they have more money, and money runs the world.

[Fedup 0]

Nice post, good points.

But about your point:

"I still dont understand where you are going with this, Russia is not USSR, Germany is Nazi Germany. Thats pretty clear, no? Russia is running under a different system, it is not under socialism/communism anymore. When I go to Germany I dont think of swastikas. But when Americans see Russians they think hammer and sickle."

Unfortunately it's something common regardless of the country.

Last few years when West Europeans see an American they think of Bush, and not in a good way, they do assume we all elected him and 100% support everything he does and says.... Middle East and Africa is even more uncomfortable with an American passport and american accent.

[Ilya R. 0]

Nice post, good points.

But about your point:

"I still dont understand where you are going with this, Russia is not USSR, Germany is Nazi Germany. Thats pretty clear, no? Russia is running under a different system, it is not under socialism/communism anymore. When I go to Germany I dont think of swastikas. But when Americans see Russians they think hammer and sickle."

Unfortunately it's something common regardless of the country.

Last few years when West Europeans see an American they think of Bush, and not in a good way, they do assume we all elected him and 100% support everything he does and says.... Middle East and Africa is even more uncomfortable with an American passport and american accent.

Yeah I've seen that too, it does depend on country.

Blin u menya ot etih razgovorov golova krujitsa haha.

ya poshol spat`.

[mox 298]

What about Gorbachev? He did a good thing in the eyes of the west, but what Russia has lost during this "PERESTROIKA" is unimaginable. Russia was like a roadkill and everyone was out for a feast. Everyone including all the republics, tried to make a quick buck steal and plunder. But thats another discussion.

Peristroika was a disaster, but I wouldn't totally blame it on Gorbechev. He had very limited options, and in and of itself, Peristroika wasn't a bad idea in theory. The Soviet economy was suffering rampant inflation, and it was evident that the centrally planned economy of the USSR had too many built-in inefficiencies for them to pull out of the economic dive they were experiencing. Gorbechev had this great idea to allow Soviet producers to set production based on supply and demand, with the expectation that this would correct the economic inefficiencies of the system. But with that came the expectation that the Soviet system would no longer subsidize production. So costs of production and labor came directly from the producers. Unfortunately, instead of rescuing the economy as it should have, it destroyed the economy. Not because it was a bad idea, but because corruption that had been rampant but invisible in the old Soviet system, flourished under this new system where the only checks and balances--namely the centralized system--was gone. The Soviet economy was basically starved to death from the bottom up. After that genie was released, there was no going back, and the Soviet Union was simply unable to pay for its own cohesion. We Americans like to take credit for this, but really we only hastened the inevitable. The Soviet system ironically bred the corruption that would lead to its own downfall.

I still dont understand where you are going with this, Russia is not USSR, Germany is Nazi Germany. Thats pretty clear, no? Russia is running under a different system, it is not under socialism/communism anymore. When I go to Germany I dont think of swastikas. But when Americans see Russians they think hammer and sickle.

For the most part I don't think Americans think "hammer and sickle," although we don't have a lot more to go on than that. We may still have vestigal thoughts of WW2 when we think of Germany, but because Germany has become such a prominant cultural and economic force in the world, I think Americans have a much more modern view of Germany. But Russia...just the act of visiting Russia is loaded with difficulty. You need a visa for starters. And almost no effort has been put into attracting visitors to Russia or to make Russia friendly to visitors. To most Westerners Russia is a mysterious black box. We (mostly) don't think of hammers and sickles anymore, but we also don't know *what* to think, which is why Americans tend to be mistrustful of Russia. I'm really looking forward to the Olympics being in Sochi...if Russia plays their cards right, they'll be able to do for Russia what the Beijing Olympics did for China.

[slim 1,525]

The average American still thinks Russians wait in line for bread and work in "the mines." Their only way out being to marry a rich foreigner. Guys are alcoholics and like to fight and beat up their wives. Women are either young and gorgeous or old and fat, either way they don't shave and like mayonnaise on everything. Everyone loves vodka and knows nothing about the outside world except that they'd rather live in America.

[1HappyGuy 45]

I don't believe that average Americans still think Russians stand in line for bread or other food stuffs. Especially after a story on "60 Minutes" about construction in Moscow. One of the world's most expensive to buy apartment buildings being built by a new Russian multi-millionaire was on the tube just two weeks ago. The word is getting out about Russian wealth and it's world-wide effect. Unfortunately, the average Russian isn't participating in this grand rush of wealth, but there is a trickle down of employment.

We will have a quicker input into Russian openness next year. The Russians will host Eurovision 2009 in Moscow. When Ukraine hosted Eurovision in 2005 they loosened their visa requirements to allow Europeans to enter easily, which in turn made it easier for them to bring their Euros to spend. We will see if Russia follows suit to allow more easy access.