Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Brad and Vika 129]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Again I will repeat, please, try to sort out what are you saying.

"why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it" - who is occupying Georgia? Last time I heard Saakashvili was talking to his people in English via Fox News, live from Tbilisi. Nobody is occupying Georgia.

As far as "take them out of Georgia" - it by "peaceful" Georgians in 1992, when all minorities were forced from Georgia, not only Russians, Ossetians, but also Jews, Turks, Greeks, etc.

If you are talking about Ossetians and Abhazians, they do not live in Georgia, but in North and South Ossetia and Abhazia. Prior to 1992 they did have autonomy, and theoretically could have refused to be with Georgia and instead be independent or stay within Russia as an autonomy. But guess what? Georgians rolled tanks over them, canceled autonomy. So, after 16 years the only reason they were able to stay on their land was the 1994 cease fire agreement, which by the way Saakashvili tore up yesterday I heard.

Any chance he had to get them back at least as autonomies he blew the day he shelled Tshinvali.

Even Condi new that, everyone warned him not to do this.

And also funny to hear it "take them out", why did not US take Albanians out of Kosovo? Albania is right next door, all these people moved to Kosovo as refugees from Albania, and suddenly they needed another piece? Strange logic. And there was UN border policing, but did not UN sanction partitioning of the country. Kosovo never had any kind of autonomy in the past, neither was it an Albanian territory, and Albania is a country already next door. I doubt it will work to claim California New Mexico Arizona and Texas as North Mexican Republic, but still there would be more historic reasoning to it than Kosovo situation.

South Ossetia had border peacekeepers from Georgia, Russia and Ossetia, and some OSCE observers. And the day Ossetia was attacked Russia called and emergency UN Security Council meeting and called for a resolution to stop military action and send UN peacekeeper mission. Guess what? US and friends were not interested, they wanted the micro war to go on I guess.

So prior to make a statements that do not make you look ok, please get some info, do not base your opinion on whatever the "fair and balanced" coverage gives you on tv. Or next thing you will be saying that Russia was occupying Ukrania for the 1000 years.

Once again, where is the all important European reality you were crying about yesterday? It's OK, just ignore what you can't explain properly. Better yet - just accuse every one else of needing to sort something!!! Why don't you answer the questions I asked earlier, you doofus? Oh wait, that is the (guess what country) EUROPEAN reality, and no need to explain it to us AMERICANS - who need to be sorted and cannot POSSIBLY understand. If you doubt where the borders of Georgia actually are - just look at any internationally recognized MAP Oh wait - I forgot - that doesn't matter because I haven't done my research

[Ilya R. 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

[Ilya R. 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Again I will repeat, please, try to sort out what are you saying.

"why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it" - who is occupying Georgia? Last time I heard Saakashvili was talking to his people in English via Fox News, live from Tbilisi. Nobody is occupying Georgia.

As far as "take them out of Georgia" - it by "peaceful" Georgians in 1992, when all minorities were forced from Georgia, not only Russians, Ossetians, but also Jews, Turks, Greeks, etc.

If you are talking about Ossetians and Abhazians, they do not live in Georgia, but in North and South Ossetia and Abhazia. Prior to 1992 they did have autonomy, and theoretically could have refused to be with Georgia and instead be independent or stay within Russia as an autonomy. But guess what? Georgians rolled tanks over them, canceled autonomy. So, after 16 years the only reason they were able to stay on their land was the 1994 cease fire agreement, which by the way Saakashvili tore up yesterday I heard.

Any chance he had to get them back at least as autonomies he blew the day he shelled Tshinvali.

Even Condi new that, everyone warned him not to do this.

And also funny to hear it "take them out", why did not US take Albanians out of Kosovo? Albania is right next door, all these people moved to Kosovo as refugees from Albania, and suddenly they needed another piece? Strange logic. And there was UN border policing, but did not UN sanction partitioning of the country. Kosovo never had any kind of autonomy in the past, neither was it an Albanian territory, and Albania is a country already next door. I doubt it will work to claim California New Mexico Arizona and Texas as North Mexican Republic, but still there would be more historic reasoning to it than Kosovo situation.

South Ossetia had border peacekeepers from Georgia, Russia and Ossetia, and some OSCE observers. And the day Ossetia was attacked Russia called and emergency UN Security Council meeting and called for a resolution to stop military action and send UN peacekeeper mission. Guess what? US and friends were not interested, they wanted the micro war to go on I guess.

So prior to make a statements that do not make you look ok, please get some info, do not base your opinion on whatever the "fair and balanced" coverage gives you on tv. Or next thing you will be saying that Russia was occupying Ukrania for the 1000 years.

Once again, where is the all important European reality you were crying about yesterday? It's OK, just ignore what you can't explain properly. Better yet - just accuse every one else of needing to sort something!!! Why don't you answer the questions I asked earlier, you doofus? Oh wait, that is the (guess what country) EUROPEAN reality, and no need to explain it to us AMERICANS - who need to be sorted and cannot POSSIBLY understand. If you doubt where the borders of Georgia actually are - just look at any internationally recognized MAP Oh wait - I forgot - that doesn't matter because I haven't done my research

You know Brad there is no need for insults, as he did not insult you once. And also he makes valid points that you seem to brush off in a very "cool" way. This is turning from discussion in to popularity contest.

[Brad and Vika 129]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

Right Ilya - it is easy for we unsorted americans to confuse the USSR and the country that controlled it (I am not joking here - we even used the terms Russia and USSR interchangeably). Even if this view is incorrect, it is VERY easy to believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary. It has been done in that part of the world before. If there is some radically different european reality, I really do want to hear it. When I ask the question, I only get insults, and I am now responding that way because I am so tired of it. You seem to be a staunch supporter of Putin, but also a rational person. Please tell us why Russia believes that only borders Russia wants to respect matter. Even if Russia defines the border, and then changes her mind later. I think it is completely wrong when any country does this.

[Ilya R. 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

Right Ilya - it is easy for we unsorted americans to confuse the USSR and the country that controlled it (I am not joking here - we even used the terms Russia and USSR interchangeably). Even if this view is incorrect, it is VERY easy to believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary. It has been done in that part of the world before. If there is some radically different european reality, I really do want to hear it. When I ask the question, I only get insults, and I am now responding that way because I am so tired of it. You seem to be a staunch supporter of Putin, but also a rational person. Please tell us why Russia believes that only borders Russia wants to respect matter. Even if Russia defines the border, and then changes her mind later. I think it is completely wrong when any country does this.

I'll gladly explain to you what you want to hear. The problem might be that you just wont want to hear what I have to say.

First of all USSR regime and Russian Federation regime is very different. I really doubt in all of history of Russia there has been as much blood spilled as there has been since 1917 to 1960s. Soviet track record is very different than Russian, and thats the fact. Millions of Russians have suffered, at hands of their leaders during soviet rule. There was no such thing during Russian Fed.

And just because you believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary is complete bull ####. And yes there is a difference between who controlled the land. Just like during Original thirteen colonies and the great migration, and who controlled the land before and after. You dont see me reaching back to French and Indian war or to Colonists vs Indian conflict where a nation, actually where a race was wiped out, mostly.

So there is no radically different European reality, but there is a different reality to what you are not accustomed to. In your reality you just prioritize on different topics than we do, and then you want your priorities to be like ours, but that just is impossible. We are different people so please learn to respect our beliefs just like we respect yours. And we do respect American beliefs because we live in America now. Just, because you cant understand why Russia does not think it is to blame, I really dont know any other way to explain in to you. Russians were outraged at what happened in Kosovo, were completely against the invasion of Iraq, and What did America do? They didnt really give two shits of what Russia had to say. Which doesnt mean America was wrong at what they did, maybe at the time it was a right decision, just like Russia thought at the time it was a right decision to strike and face the criticism/consequences. So you can stick to your view or you could just accept that most of us have strong opinions about things that is impossible (or very hard) to undersand.

And I am not really that big of a Putin fan to be honest. But the facts speak the truth, Putin has done more for Russia than any other leader in last 40 years. Soviet or Russian. Maybe Russia is wrong in the eyes of the west, but I believe they did the right thing, and there are millions like me, and these opinions are not based of propaganda either. And this conflict just like Kosovo, just like Iraq, will soon be forgotten and no more outrages claims or comparison to Nazis will be made.

And just because you are tired of something on these boards doesnt mean you should react to it. I dont agree with 70% of posters on these boards, be it at open forum or here, but I dont go crazy and call people names because I am tired of their ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Ilya R.

[Brad and Vika 129]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

Right Ilya - it is easy for we unsorted americans to confuse the USSR and the country that controlled it (I am not joking here - we even used the terms Russia and USSR interchangeably). Even if this view is incorrect, it is VERY easy to believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary. It has been done in that part of the world before. If there is some radically different european reality, I really do want to hear it. When I ask the question, I only get insults, and I am now responding that way because I am so tired of it. You seem to be a staunch supporter of Putin, but also a rational person. Please tell us why Russia believes that only borders Russia wants to respect matter. Even if Russia defines the border, and then changes her mind later. I think it is completely wrong when any country does this.

I'll gladly explain to you what you want to hear. The problem might be that you just wont want to hear what I have to say.

First of all USSR regime and Russian Federation regime is very different. I really doubt in all of history of Russia there has been as much blood spilled as there has been since 1917 to 1960s. Soviet track record is very different than Russian, and thats the fact. Millions of Russians have suffered, at hands of their leaders during soviet rule. There was no such thing during Russian Fed.

And just because you believe that Russia could move or just wipe out a population if necessary is complete bull ####. And yes there is a difference between who controlled the land. Just like during Original thirteen colonies and the great migration, and who controlled the land before and after. You dont see me reaching back to French and Indian war or to Colonists vs Indian conflict where a nation, actually where a race was wiped out, mostly.

So there is no radically different European reality, but there is a different reality to what you are not accustomed to. In your reality you just prioritize on different topics than we do, and then you want your priorities to be like ours, but that just is impossible. We are different people so please learn to respect our beliefs just like we respect yours. And we do respect American beliefs because we live in America now. Just, because you cant understand why Russia does not think it is to blame, I really dont know any other way to explain in to you. Russians were outraged at what happened in Kosovo, were completely against the invasion of Iraq, and What did America do? They didnt really give two shits of what Russia had to say. Which doesnt mean America was wrong at what they did, maybe at the time it was a right decision, just like Russia thought at the time it was a right decision to strike and face the criticism/consequences. So you can stick to your view or you could just accept that most of us have strong opinions about things that is impossible (or very hard) to undersand.

And I am not really that big of a Putin fan to be honest. But the facts speak the truth, Putin has done more for Russia than any other leader in last 40 years. Soviet or Russian. Maybe Russia is wrong in the eyes of the west, but I believe they did the right thing, and there are millions like me, and these opinions are not based of propaganda either. And this conflict just like Kosovo, just like Iraq, will soon be forgotten and no more outrages claims or comparison to Nazis will be made.

And just because you are tired of something on these boards doesnt mean you should react to it. I dont agree with 70% of posters on these boards, be it at open forum or here, but I dont go crazy and call people names because I am tired of their ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Dude, are you angry? C'mon now - really? Mostly a good post here, although as a Russian you will probably see that admission as a weakness and just attack some more (you will recall calling ME a few names before in other threads).

Thank you for stating that there is no radically different European reality - I suspected as much. I also respect that you think Russia did the right thing - even if I disagree with you. It doesn't mean I am wrong, just that we differ in our opinion. In my opinion Putin has done more to drag Russia back into Soviet style totalitarianism than any leader in the last 40 years. If that is doing more - than you are correct - and a socialist. Also fine, if you will own it. And people from my generation confusing Russia with its predecessor is completely understandable for most Americans, even if you don't like it, and there are tens of millions who are like me, and my opinion is based on the same facts that you guys refuse to actually present.

I actually do believe your statement that Russia just agreed to accept the consequences and moved forward in Georgia. That is an honest statement. America often does the same (I said so earlier - did you notice?).

Thanks again for refuting the other poster's goofy statement that there was some other "Eropean Reality" that was incomprehensible to us Americans. Sometimes we must simply agree to disagree.

OK - I gave you some props here Ilya - so go ahead and punish me

[Ilya R. 0]

You know just like a good Russian hockey player, I know one thing and it is attack, I dont know defense or backchecking. Damn stereotypes!!

sad but true.

Anyway I have no beef with anybody, sometimes I just like to clarify things to people of how I/we look at things from overseas

[Brad and Vika 129]

You know just like a good Russian hockey player, I know one thing and it is attack, I dont know defense or backchecking. Damn stereotypes!!

sad but true.

Anyway I have no beef with anybody, sometimes I just like to clarify things to people of how I/we look at things from overseas

Cool!!

[slim 1,523]

So do you guys think there was a 17 page thread on the Russian visa journey type site when we invaded Iraq?

[Brad and Vika 129]

So do you guys think there was a 17 page thread on the Russian visa journey type site when we invaded Iraq?

Nope. No Iraqi Sos = no thread.

[Fedup 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Again I will repeat, please, try to sort out what are you saying.

"why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it" - who is occupying Georgia? Last time I heard Saakashvili was talking to his people in English via Fox News, live from Tbilisi. Nobody is occupying Georgia.

As far as "take them out of Georgia" - it by "peaceful" Georgians in 1992, when all minorities were forced from Georgia, not only Russians, Ossetians, but also Jews, Turks, Greeks, etc.

If you are talking about Ossetians and Abhazians, they do not live in Georgia, but in North and South Ossetia and Abhazia. Prior to 1992 they did have autonomy, and theoretically could have refused to be with Georgia and instead be independent or stay within Russia as an autonomy. But guess what? Georgians rolled tanks over them, canceled autonomy. So, after 16 years the only reason they were able to stay on their land was the 1994 cease fire agreement, which by the way Saakashvili tore up yesterday I heard.

Any chance he had to get them back at least as autonomies he blew the day he shelled Tshinvali.

Even Condi new that, everyone warned him not to do this.

And also funny to hear it "take them out", why did not US take Albanians out of Kosovo? Albania is right next door, all these people moved to Kosovo as refugees from Albania, and suddenly they needed another piece? Strange logic. And there was UN border policing, but did not UN sanction partitioning of the country. Kosovo never had any kind of autonomy in the past, neither was it an Albanian territory, and Albania is a country already next door. I doubt it will work to claim California New Mexico Arizona and Texas as North Mexican Republic, but still there would be more historic reasoning to it than Kosovo situation.

South Ossetia had border peacekeepers from Georgia, Russia and Ossetia, and some OSCE observers. And the day Ossetia was attacked Russia called and emergency UN Security Council meeting and called for a resolution to stop military action and send UN peacekeeper mission. Guess what? US and friends were not interested, they wanted the micro war to go on I guess.

So prior to make a statements that do not make you look ok, please get some info, do not base your opinion on whatever the "fair and balanced" coverage gives you on tv. Or next thing you will be saying that Russia was occupying Ukrania for the 1000 years.

Once again, where is the all important European reality you were crying about yesterday? It's OK, just ignore what you can't explain properly. Better yet - just accuse every one else of needing to sort something!!! Why don't you answer the questions I asked earlier, you doofus? Oh wait, that is the (guess what country) EUROPEAN reality, and no need to explain it to us AMERICANS - who need to be sorted and cannot POSSIBLY understand. If you doubt where the borders of Georgia actually are - just look at any internationally recognized MAP Oh wait - I forgot - that doesn't matter because I haven't done my research

Dude, you are angry for some reason.. Your reply did not have a single point on the discussion, too much to drink on Labor Day?

I can repeat, the reality of old "frozen conflicts". Map is just a map, I agree that borders are what's on the map, but beyond the map, national conflicts that are still brewing because the map was redrawn arbitrarily in the past. In some cases many times. And the repercussions of redrawing maps without taking in account historic, national, cultural factors are what makes this conflicts go on for years. Sooner or later, UN or without UN, these issues are surfacing, as they did in Iraq between Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, as in Kashmir, Tibet, Balkans, Caucasus, etc. Most are due to post colonial borders, or results of prior wars. East and West Germany border was also UN recognized, for a long time. Did not bother anyone that it was redrawn. We still will see more changes, no matter how angry you are if these changes are not to your liking, or mine, or Putin's or whoever's. That is the reality. Putin did what is good for his country, you or me or anyone else can like it or not, does not really matter much. I just do not think his job is to please US or EU or our media. You would not want our government to think about UN or EU or Russia first, our issues last.

It is hard to understand probably, easier to slide into rage.

[Fedup 0]

And people from my generation confusing Russia with its predecessor is completely understandable for most Americans, even if you don't like it, and there are tens of millions who are like me, and my opinion is based on the same facts that you guys refuse to actually present.

Thanks again for refuting the other poster's goofy statement that there was some other "Eropean Reality" that was incomprehensible to us Americans. Sometimes we must simply agree to disagree.

Understandable confusion but nothing that is incomprehensible.

Shall I call you names I wonder?

Naah....

not this time.

[Fedup 0]

Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Sadly but true. Add Russians too (Don Cossaks and other instances). But not sure if "deporting" some (Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Russians, and Kulaks from any nation) to labor camps or Siberian exile can be defined as deportation or moving... Please do not forget that millions did not survive the "move".

[Fedup 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Thanks Bob, for this. It also helps sort this Fedup retard. OMG Fedup! You haven't sorted your comments! Fedup seems eager to ignore every salient argument that cannot be refuted. He just ignors them - like - guess who? I wonder what his nationality is, but only for 10 seconds.

Read above again, completely different issues. You are saying it's ok to move populations? That is what you suggest Russia do now? Or not?

But again, maybe you are just easily confused, this might excuse your choice of language and arguments.

[Bobalouie 0]

No one wants another cold war, but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table.

That threat ended up with Georgia loosing Ossetia and Abhazia.

Another threat will end up with some other former USSR republic ceasing to exist.

Or with "missile shield" on Cuba or Venezuela.

Same old ####. So do not say "no one wants cold war but... "

Same old US excuse, nobody wants war, but we will bomb Iraq and Afghanistan to oblivion, just to show that we can, etc.

It will only lead to loosening of standards, old story with same old ending. Everything did, does and will have a reaction from the either side.

At least until someone gets hurt. So I would say it's a good thing for now for Georgia to get hurt, neocons PNAC dudes played their little game there, it did not work out, at least it was not Poland or Hungary.

And I bet most Russians feel the same way: "but we may have to use that threat to get everyone to the table", but about kicking Georgia back under the table.

Diplomacy and international relations are always a matter of more than one opinion/side/country, so it is most helpful to be able to look at issues from other side too. Most in Europe or Asia understand this, unfortunately very few here do.

OK - so explain both sides to us. All I read here is one side coming from you, and a good amount of arrogance in accusing Americans of not understanding. So tell me about the non-Russian side of the discussion. If Russia is so concerned about its citizens, why not take them out of Georgia instead of occupying it. Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment, so why not safety?

And for the record, I have consistently stated that the UN is tasked with policing borders. Not America, not Russia. Kosovo was a UN sanctioned exercise. S. Ossetia was not. That is the difference, in my mind. Same story with Iraq, the US has no need to spend a billion dollars a day to force democracy on an Iraqi populace that doesn't really seem to want it. Crossing the internationally recognized protected zones into Iraq was wrong - and building a coalition after the fact does not excuse it.

Please be so kind and give an example when RUSSIA has done that.

How about when the Crimean Tartars were deported en mass to Central Asia and other parts of the Soviet Union in 1944?

Or maybe the Terek Cossacks, who in 1920 were deported or killed so that their lands could be given to new autonomous republics of other minorites?

Then if we look at ONLY Stalin, he deported completely or partially: Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Ukrainians, Poles, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia.

Yeah Bob thanks again, But I guess its really easy to confuse USSR with Russian Federation. So I ask again " Russia has been known to move entire ethnic populations for convenience or punishment?

Do I see Soviet Union anywhere in that statement?

Oh, I am sorry, I thought that Moscow, which was the head of the USSR, was in RUSSIA. Yea, I guess I was confused. I thought that you wanted someone to provide facts, but I guess you wanted to have a talk about SEMANTICS.