Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Ilya R. 0]

Unless I'm translating wrong, this article on Gazeta.Ru's site seems to confirm the above AP story, and indicates that Russia didn't get the full support than it had hoped for from the Chinese et al -- although it didn't make as big a deal about the portions of the comments which disagreed with the Russian position.

The title says: that the all the countries who met in Dushanbe supported Russian actions in S.O., But there are sources that say they also support the borders of sovereign nation.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Ilya R.

[Bobalouie 0]

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

Do you hate Russians?

I hope not, I am married to one, and she dosent care too much for Gerogians. She has some predjudices that come from her childhood. I am just wondering what YOUR excuse is.

Just because you are married to one, doesnt all the sudden make you immune to assumption of hating Russians. And Just because I didnt like the article gives you no right to ask me a question like that. Just the article's topic claims "THE REAL TRUTH" is already bullshit with guy going to capital of Georgia and writting about it. Very real truth. Thats why I said it was biased. And it is.

I have breathed and experienced Georgian culture, I had tasted their wines, I had eaten their food, I have seen their movies. I have Georgian friends. I am a huge Georgian fan of culture. And not just Georgian but other "gorniy" narod too. Even though Russian news are biased, towards Russia I get my sources of info from actual people, not some jackass with high claims. Just because Saakshvili propaganda got to him and the people he spoke to, doesnt give him the right to label his article as truth. But hey you can believe whoever you chose, you are an American and you have open mind about everything? Right?

And Brad I do not have family there, my wife's friend grandma lived in some village before it was torched.

Your right, it doesnt make me immune, thats why I said "I hope not". And as far as I know, I can ask any question I want, this being the internet and all. Just because you have "breathed and experienced Georgian culture...et al" doesnt make you immune to having a bias against them either, thus my question is valid.

I choose not to believe one source over another. I choose to read everything and make up my own mind. But, I can safely say that I have no bias towards Georgia or Russia in this conflict, thus my mind is pretty open.

You get your info from actual people, but you admit that some of your info is fourth hand information. None of that can possibly be biased or skewed in any way? There are two sides to this story, the Georgian and the Russian. I have said it before that the truth lies somewhere in the middle and we probably wont know what the truth is in our lifetime. I simply asked the question based on your unilateral denouncement of any source that has been included in this topic that does not show the Georgians as bloodthirsty boogeymen bent on ethnically cleansing their breakaway republics. You dont even awknowledge that there could be some truth in those sources. I think you should probably start looking in the mirror before you start making comments about me being closed minded.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Bobalouie

[Ilya R. 0]

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

Do you hate Russians?

I hope not, I am married to one, and she dosent care too much for Gerogians. She has some predjudices that come from her childhood. I am just wondering what YOUR excuse is.

Just because you are married to one, doesnt all the sudden make you immune to assumption of hating Russians. And Just because I didnt like the article gives you no right to ask me a question like that. Just the article's topic claims "THE REAL TRUTH" is already bullshit with guy going to capital of Georgia and writting about it. Very real truth. Thats why I said it was biased. And it is.

I have breathed and experienced Georgian culture, I had tasted their wines, I had eaten their food, I have seen their movies. I have Georgian friends. I am a huge Georgian fan of culture. And not just Georgian but other "gorniy" narod too. Even though Russian news are biased, towards Russia I get my sources of info from actual people, not some jackass with high claims. Just because Saakshvili propaganda got to him and the people he spoke to, doesnt give him the right to label his article as truth. But hey you can believe whoever you chose, you are an American and you have open mind about everything? Right?

And Brad I do not have family there, my wife's friend grandma lived in some village before it was torched.

Your right, it doesnt make me immune, thats why I said "I hope not". And as far as I know, I can ask any question I want, this being the internet and all. Just because you have "breathed and experienced Georgian culture...et al" doesnt make you immune to having a bias against them either, thus my question is valid.

I choose not to believe one source over another. I choose to read everything and make up my own mind. But, I can safely say that I have no bias towards Georgia or Russia in this conflict, thus my mind is pretty open.

You get your info from actual people, but you admit that some of your info is fourth hand information. None of that can possibly be biased or skewed in any way? There are two sides to this story, the Georgian and the Russian. I have said it before that the truth lies somewhere in the middle and we probably wont know what the truth is in our lifetime. I simply asked the question based on your unilateral denouncement of any source that has been included in this topic that does not show the Georgians as bloodthirsty boogeymen bent on ethnically cleansing their breakaway republics. You dont even awknowledge that there could be some truth in those sources. I think you should probably start looking in the mirror before you start making comments about me being closed minded.

I dont need to look in the mirror. I have Georgian friends, I know alot about Georgia, I love their culture, their food and their people. Therefore I do not Hate Georgians. Seriously when Russia put a ban on Borjomi, I was so pissed, and I cant have my favorite meal without Adjika!!! Do I have really spell it out for you?

And I think you should check your facts. All I said was that the article was one sided, and it claimed to be truthful. And you are correct that information I have and biased S. O. have towards Russians is obvious, but you cant ignore people opinion(who have seen things first hand) over a foreign reporter(who interviews people who you and me cant really know is credible). Why would I acknowledge some article thats completely biased and one sided? For me thats a No go.

And you claim that you have no bias towards Russians or Georgians. I can safely "assume" thats not true.(Again I might be wrong, this is my opinion) I am sure you grew up during the cold war(Being US born), therefore something tells me that hate or fear of old USSR is climbing back in once Russia shows a little bit of nasty side?(We all know Russians were bad guys in every movie in 80's-90s') We are all biased one way or another, all it takes for us to sway one way or another is a little experience that can start in our childhood and you cant deny that. So please, dont start with how open minded you are to both sides.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Ilya R.

[Bobalouie 0]

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

Do you hate Russians?

I hope not, I am married to one, and she dosent care too much for Gerogians. She has some predjudices that come from her childhood. I am just wondering what YOUR excuse is.

Just because you are married to one, doesnt all the sudden make you immune to assumption of hating Russians. And Just because I didnt like the article gives you no right to ask me a question like that. Just the article's topic claims "THE REAL TRUTH" is already bullshit with guy going to capital of Georgia and writting about it. Very real truth. Thats why I said it was biased. And it is.

I have breathed and experienced Georgian culture, I had tasted their wines, I had eaten their food, I have seen their movies. I have Georgian friends. I am a huge Georgian fan of culture. And not just Georgian but other "gorniy" narod too. Even though Russian news are biased, towards Russia I get my sources of info from actual people, not some jackass with high claims. Just because Saakshvili propaganda got to him and the people he spoke to, doesnt give him the right to label his article as truth. But hey you can believe whoever you chose, you are an American and you have open mind about everything? Right?

And Brad I do not have family there, my wife's friend grandma lived in some village before it was torched.

Your right, it doesnt make me immune, thats why I said "I hope not". And as far as I know, I can ask any question I want, this being the internet and all. Just because you have "breathed and experienced Georgian culture...et al" doesnt make you immune to having a bias against them either, thus my question is valid.

I choose not to believe one source over another. I choose to read everything and make up my own mind. But, I can safely say that I have no bias towards Georgia or Russia in this conflict, thus my mind is pretty open.

You get your info from actual people, but you admit that some of your info is fourth hand information. None of that can possibly be biased or skewed in any way? There are two sides to this story, the Georgian and the Russian. I have said it before that the truth lies somewhere in the middle and we probably wont know what the truth is in our lifetime. I simply asked the question based on your unilateral denouncement of any source that has been included in this topic that does not show the Georgians as bloodthirsty boogeymen bent on ethnically cleansing their breakaway republics. You dont even awknowledge that there could be some truth in those sources. I think you should probably start looking in the mirror before you start making comments about me being closed minded.

I dont need to look in the mirror. I have Georgian friends, I know alot about Georgia, I love their culture, their food and their people. Therefore I do not Hate Georgians. Seriously when Russia put a ban on Borjomi, I was so pissed, and I cant have my favorite meal without Adjika!!! Do I have really spell it out for you?

And I think you should check your facts. All I said was that the article was one sided, and it claimed to be truthful. And you are correct that information I have and biased S. O. have towards Russians is obvious, but you cant ignore people opinion(who have seen things first hand) over a foreign reporter(who interviews people who you and me cant really know is credible). Why would I acknowledge some article thats completely biased and one sided? For me thats a No go.

And you claim that you have no bias towards Russians or Georgians. I can safely "assume" thats not true.(Again I might be wrong, this is my opinion) I am sure you grew up during the cold war(Being US born), therefore something tells me that hate or fear of old USSR is climbing back in once Russia shows a little bit of nasty side?(We all know Russians were bad guys in every movie in 80's-90s') We are all biased one way or another, all it takes for us to sway one way or another is a little experience that can start in our childhood and you cant deny that. So please, dont start with how open minded you are to both sides.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I dont deny what you are saying (grew up in the cold war, saw many movies) but I think that for you to say "dont start with me..." really shows who has the closed mind here. You ASSUME that because I am an American that I have no idea what goes on further than 12 miles off the US coast. You ASSUME that because I am an American that I will automatically side against the Bear because of my "biases brought on by childhood experiences". You ASSUME that I believe anything that the western media tells me. You couldnt be further from the truth.

Were Russia's actions a surprise? No. Does that change the fact that I think they went too far? No. Do I think both sides are telling the truth to reporters? No. Do I think that the "people on the ground" always know with 100% confidence what they are talking about? No. But I am WILLING to listen to what everybody says and make up my own mind.

[1HappyGuy 45]

Russia didn't get the support it wanted for pretty clear reasons. China and the others didn't want to support a position that allows separatists to claim independence. Each of those countries have problem areas with ethnic minorities wanting to rule themselves. If they supported Russia's position it was opening the door for all the various regions in each country to declare their independence.

Russia views it differently because they believe the separatist movement in South Ossetia and Abkhazia will align themselves with Russia. But, what if these two regions want to be independent from Russia too? Does anyone believe Russia will go along with that position.

Georgia's difficulties began with a change in political affiliation from pro-Russian to pro-western. This translates into who can Russia control and who they can't. It's really pretty simple. Does anyone understand why there is an oil pipeline that travels through Georgia to Turkey and out to the Med. Sea? Pretty simple again, to avoid Russian controls.

It's still about control. If it was about business then the positions would be completely different? That would involve competition, which is a new concept to Russia.

[Ilya R. 0]

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

Do you hate Russians?

I hope not, I am married to one, and she dosent care too much for Gerogians. She has some predjudices that come from her childhood. I am just wondering what YOUR excuse is.

Just because you are married to one, doesnt all the sudden make you immune to assumption of hating Russians. And Just because I didnt like the article gives you no right to ask me a question like that. Just the article's topic claims "THE REAL TRUTH" is already bullshit with guy going to capital of Georgia and writting about it. Very real truth. Thats why I said it was biased. And it is.

I have breathed and experienced Georgian culture, I had tasted their wines, I had eaten their food, I have seen their movies. I have Georgian friends. I am a huge Georgian fan of culture. And not just Georgian but other "gorniy" narod too. Even though Russian news are biased, towards Russia I get my sources of info from actual people, not some jackass with high claims. Just because Saakshvili propaganda got to him and the people he spoke to, doesnt give him the right to label his article as truth. But hey you can believe whoever you chose, you are an American and you have open mind about everything? Right?

And Brad I do not have family there, my wife's friend grandma lived in some village before it was torched.

Your right, it doesnt make me immune, thats why I said "I hope not". And as far as I know, I can ask any question I want, this being the internet and all. Just because you have "breathed and experienced Georgian culture...et al" doesnt make you immune to having a bias against them either, thus my question is valid.

I choose not to believe one source over another. I choose to read everything and make up my own mind. But, I can safely say that I have no bias towards Georgia or Russia in this conflict, thus my mind is pretty open.

You get your info from actual people, but you admit that some of your info is fourth hand information. None of that can possibly be biased or skewed in any way? There are two sides to this story, the Georgian and the Russian. I have said it before that the truth lies somewhere in the middle and we probably wont know what the truth is in our lifetime. I simply asked the question based on your unilateral denouncement of any source that has been included in this topic that does not show the Georgians as bloodthirsty boogeymen bent on ethnically cleansing their breakaway republics. You dont even awknowledge that there could be some truth in those sources. I think you should probably start looking in the mirror before you start making comments about me being closed minded.

I dont need to look in the mirror. I have Georgian friends, I know alot about Georgia, I love their culture, their food and their people. Therefore I do not Hate Georgians. Seriously when Russia put a ban on Borjomi, I was so pissed, and I cant have my favorite meal without Adjika!!! Do I have really spell it out for you?

And I think you should check your facts. All I said was that the article was one sided, and it claimed to be truthful. And you are correct that information I have and biased S. O. have towards Russians is obvious, but you cant ignore people opinion(who have seen things first hand) over a foreign reporter(who interviews people who you and me cant really know is credible). Why would I acknowledge some article thats completely biased and one sided? For me thats a No go.

And you claim that you have no bias towards Russians or Georgians. I can safely "assume" thats not true.(Again I might be wrong, this is my opinion) I am sure you grew up during the cold war(Being US born), therefore something tells me that hate or fear of old USSR is climbing back in once Russia shows a little bit of nasty side?(We all know Russians were bad guys in every movie in 80's-90s') We are all biased one way or another, all it takes for us to sway one way or another is a little experience that can start in our childhood and you cant deny that. So please, dont start with how open minded you are to both sides.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I dont deny what you are saying (grew up in the cold war, saw many movies) but I think that for you to say "dont start with me..." really shows who has the closed mind here. You ASSUME that because I am an American that I have no idea what goes on further than 12 miles off the US coast. You ASSUME that because I am an American that I will automatically side against the Bear because of my "biases brought on by childhood experiences". You ASSUME that I believe anything that the western media tells me. You couldnt be further from the truth.

Were Russia's actions a surprise? No. Does that change the fact that I think they went too far? No. Do I think both sides are telling the truth to reporters? No. Do I think that the "people on the ground" always know with 100% confidence what they are talking about? No. But I am WILLING to listen to what everybody says and make up my own mind.

We are both entitled to our opinion. And with all the information I have come across, I believe that Russia did the right thing, did they overeact? Yes, but they did what had to be done. Is it possible Russia is to blame? Yes. Is it possible US is to blame? Yes. Who knows? I dont.

And I dont assume that you believe western media only. You seem like knowledgeable guy, but I do believe there is more bias towards Russia than towards Georgia from you(of course again, just speculating). And all of the things you pointed out, some might be a part of it.

Still I come back to that article and your justification to ask me If I hated Georgians. And for the Record I dont like their president and his tactics.

[LvivLovers 39]

Apparently it was us (the USA) that started it:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080828/pl_nm/...ssetia_putin_dc

Why the hell is it always our fault?! lol

[1HappyGuy 45]

I saw that this morning too. But of course it was America. Anything we can do to provoke the Russians into getting their troops to overwhelm a smaller country is in our best interest.

You know, when the truth doesn't suit you, invent something. If you tell it enough times it must be the truth.

What's really sad now, is Georgia has lost a significant part of their country and they never really worked on a solution that could have been beneficial for all. From what I've read, a good portion of each of these regions is populated by Georgians, not Russians. So, what about these people, are they the silent majority?

[Brad and Vika 129]

Russia didn't get the support it wanted for pretty clear reasons. China and the others didn't want to support a position that allows separatists to claim independence. Each of those countries have problem areas with ethnic minorities wanting to rule themselves. If they supported Russia's position it was opening the door for all the various regions in each country to declare their independence.

Russia views it differently because they believe the separatist movement in South Ossetia and Abkhazia will align themselves with Russia. But, what if these two regions want to be independent from Russia too? Does anyone believe Russia will go along with that position.

Georgia's difficulties began with a change in political affiliation from pro-Russian to pro-western. This translates into who can Russia control and who they can't. It's really pretty simple. Does anyone understand why there is an oil pipeline that travels through Georgia to Turkey and out to the Med. Sea? Pretty simple again, to avoid Russian controls.

It's still about control. If it was about business then the positions would be completely different? That would involve competition, which is a new concept to Russia.

I don't see any way the break away regions could ever be independent of Russian control. Why would they? As soon as the Russian army leaves - guess who will come back to visit?

[slim 1,514]

Why should we go to war for Ukraine? or Georgia? To play who can p*ss the farthest with Russia? I'll put my nukes in Poland and you put your nukes in Cuba then we'll see who is the real king of the world.

NATO is a dinosaur that should have been torn down with the Berlin Wall. It's only purpose is to tease Russia with military threats. If some stupid little president of some stupid little NATO country decides to poke The Bear with a stick, then all of the NATO members have to blow up Europe to save face.

How brilliant.

You can say all day "it should be like this" or "it should be like that" but that doesn't change what it is. And NATO is an alliance. If someone in that alliance is attacked then the rest of the alliance is bound to lend a hand. Blow up Europe to save face? No. Blow up Europe to comply with our treaties? Yes.

So, what about these people, are they the silent majority?

Opinions don't really matter much in a war. Blowing stuff up seems to get noticed.

As soon as the Russian army leaves - guess who will come back to visit?

A "silent majority" has no choice but to be occupied by someone; in this case the lesser of two evils or the more powerful of the two evils depending on which side your sympathies lie.

========================================================

Did you guys catch the final Generation Kill on HBO? There was a good line one of the Marines said, "those who cannont kill will always be subject to those that will." Applies in Iraq, applies in Georgia... could very well apply right here someday if we're not careful.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Why should we go to war for Ukraine? or Georgia? To play who can p*ss the farthest with Russia? I'll put my nukes in Poland and you put your nukes in Cuba then we'll see who is the real king of the world.

NATO is a dinosaur that should have been torn down with the Berlin Wall. It's only purpose is to tease Russia with military threats. If some stupid little president of some stupid little NATO country decides to poke The Bear with a stick, then all of the NATO members have to blow up Europe to save face.

How brilliant.

You can say all day "it should be like this" or "it should be like that" but that doesn't change what it is. And NATO is an alliance. If someone in that alliance is attacked then the rest of the alliance is bound to lend a hand. Blow up Europe to save face? No. Blow up Europe to comply with our treaties? Yes.

So, what about these people, are they the silent majority?

Opinions don't really matter much in a war. Blowing stuff up seems to get noticed.

As soon as the Russian army leaves - guess who will come back to visit?

A "silent majority" has no choice but to be occupied by someone; in this case the lesser of two evils or the more powerful of the two evils depending on which side your sympathies lie.

========================================================

Did you guys catch the final Generation Kill on HBO? There was a good line one of the Marines said, "those who cannont kill will always be subject to those that will." Applies in Iraq, applies in Georgia... could very well apply right here someday if we're not careful.

Saw the episode - enjoyed it. I disagree on one point Slim. If it is a silent but well armed majority.....

[Fedup 0]

I saw that this morning too. But of course it was America. Anything we can do to provoke the Russians into getting their troops to overwhelm a smaller country is in our best interest.

You know, when the truth doesn't suit you, invent something. If you tell it enough times it must be the truth.

What's really sad now, is Georgia has lost a significant part of their country and they never really worked on a solution that could have been beneficial for all. From what I've read, a good portion of each of these regions is populated by Georgians, not Russians. So, what about these people, are they the silent majority?

Somehow you, as well as US media, forget to mention people who live in these "Georgian" regions.. They are NOT georgians or russians. There must be a reason why these regions are called Abhazia and Ossetia. Did it occur to anyone that these are actually nations, live people, with their own languages, history, culture???

It takes at least some knowledge of basic facts to make a more or less reasonable opinion. Of course unless you are ####### or Condi or a retard.

This conflict is about 700 years old. Abhazians and Ossetians just do not want to be a part of Georgia, not 700 years ago, not after wars of 1992, and especially not after Georgians bombed Tsginval at night, with all civilian population in it.

I know that US schools are not the best in the world in history or geography, so we probably just have to be glad average american does not think Russians are in Atlanta.

But hey, who cares anyway? After Iraq and Afghanistan and ones before them, anyone can bomb anyone, as long as they have a will and means.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Based on what I am reading, I would guess that the BIG showdown is still years away. America (probably through NATO) and Russia will continue to antagonize each other, but don't want to actually fight. The political commentators all seem to agree that NATO is completely impotent in limiting Russian intervention in its FSU sphere of influence. Russia is equally impotent in stopping the expansion of NATO in that sphere - in fact accelerates it with each threat and military action that it takes unilaterally in the FSU.

The big problem will come when a country like Ukraine actually becomes part of NATO, and Russia decides to ignore the alliance and occupy territory there. Continuing that line of thinking, Ukraine joins NATO, and Russia annexes Crimea, claiming that it was never really Ukrainian, and Russian citizens there must be protected. NATO is bound by treaty to take action against Russia in that case, and assuming Iraq is over, America now has resources to throw at the problem. That is when things really get interesting.

This is one hypothetical amongst many, and only an example. No need to tear it down - my point is that the next world crisis may be in the FSU. I am curious as to what other VJers think will happen when NATO gets closer to Russia than it is now.

OK - here is some material that suggests my scenario above is a distinct possibility.

BBC

[slim 1,514]

I disagree on one point Slim. If it is a silent but well armed majority.....

A well armed majority is not silent. They can speak even without uttering a word.

[1HappyGuy 45]

I didn't mean to infer that South Ossetia or Abkhazia have no other ethnic populations. I got this chart and I hope it shows correctly the breakdown of population in South Ossetia. Of course there are other ethnicities in these regions. But, self rule is not something any have known for hundreds of years.

1926 census 1939 census 1959 census 1970 census 1979 census 1989 census

Ossetians 60,351 (69.1%) 72,266 (68.1%) 63,698 (65.8%) 66,073 (66.5%) 65,077 (66.4%) 65,200 (66.2%)

Georgians 23,538 (26.9%) 27,525 (25.9%) 26,584 (27.5%) 28,125 (28.3%) 28,187 (28.8%) 28,700 (29.0%)

Russians 157 (0.2%) 2,111 (2.0%) 2,380 (2.5%) 1,574 (1.6%) 2,046 (2.1%) 2 128 (2,1%)

Armenians 1,374 (1.6%) 1,537 (1.4%) 1,555 (1.6%) 1,254 (1.3%) 953 (1.0% 871 (1,21%)

Jews 1,739 (2.0%) 1,979 (1.9%) 1,723 (1.8%) 1,485 (1.5%) 654 (0.7%) 648 (0,9%)

Others 216 (0.2%) 700 (0.7%) 867 (0.9%) 910 (0.9%) 1,071 (1.1%) 5,100 (4.8%)

Total 87,375 106,118 96,807 99,421 97,988 99,000

Sorry, the chart isn't great, but it is informational. Just couldn't get it to separate right.