Georgia/Russia Conflict

[Ilya R. 0]

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

Do you hate Russians?

[1HappyGuy 45]

Thanks Korat for that article. As usual, things are not always as reported. I knew something had to spark the conflict. It is always something, but I had not heard about the Ossetian attacks the day before. Georgia, although antagonized by Ossetian troops should have realized that Russian troops lurking on their borders was not the best time to retaliate against these Ossetian separatists.

I don't think its about liking or hating Russian, it's more about who's going to control the region. I did note that Russia moved very quickly to recognize independent status for Ossetia and Abkhazia the past couple of days. This is also Russia thumbing their nose at America for Kosovo.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Thanks Korat for that article. As usual, things are not always as reported. I knew something had to spark the conflict. It is always something, but I had not heard about the Ossetian attacks the day before. Georgia, although antagonized by Ossetian troops should have realized that Russian troops lurking on their borders was not the best time to retaliate against these Ossetian separatists.

I don't think its about liking or hating Russian, it's more about who's going to control the region. I did note that Russia moved very quickly to recognize independent status for Ossetia and Abkhazia the past couple of days. This is also Russia thumbing their nose at America for Kosovo.

I saw on the BBC this morning that the Brit Foreign Minister is in Ukraine to discuss an "alliance against Russian aggression" and accelerated NATO membership.

[Bobalouie 0]

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

Do you hate Russians?

I hope not, I am married to one, and she dosent care too much for Gerogians. She has some predjudices that come from her childhood. I am just wondering what YOUR excuse is.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

Do you hate Russians?

I hope not, I am married to one, and she dosent care too much for Gerogians. She has some predjudices that come from her childhood. I am just wondering what YOUR excuse is.

I think Ilya said that he has family on the Russian side in Ossetia.

[Ilya R. 0]

Very one sided article.

Waste of time

You say that about any piece of information that shows Georgia as not being the boogeyman. Do you hate Georgians?

Do you hate Russians?

I hope not, I am married to one, and she dosent care too much for Gerogians. She has some predjudices that come from her childhood. I am just wondering what YOUR excuse is.

Just because you are married to one, doesnt all the sudden make you immune to assumption of hating Russians. And Just because I didnt like the article gives you no right to ask me a question like that. Just the article's topic claims "THE REAL TRUTH" is already bullshit with guy going to capital of Georgia and writting about it. Very real truth. Thats why I said it was biased. And it is.

I have breathed and experienced Georgian culture, I had tasted their wines, I had eaten their food, I have seen their movies. I have Georgian friends. I am a huge Georgian fan of culture. And not just Georgian but other "gorniy" narod too. Even though Russian news are biased, towards Russia I get my sources of info from actual people, not some jackass with high claims. Just because Saakshvili propaganda got to him and the people he spoke to, doesnt give him the right to label his article as truth. But hey you can believe whoever you chose, you are an American and you have open mind about everything? Right?

And Brad I do not have family there, my wife's friend grandma lived in some village before it was torched.

[Ilya R. 0]

P.S. Prior to Saakshvili regime, you could ask any Russian and most of them would call "Georgian People" as very humble very cultural and open to anyone.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Based on what I am reading, I would guess that the BIG showdown is still years away. America (probably through NATO) and Russia will continue to antagonize each other, but don't want to actually fight. The political commentators all seem to agree that NATO is completely impotent in limiting Russian intervention in its FSU sphere of influence. Russia is equally impotent in stopping the expansion of NATO in that sphere - in fact accelerates it with each threat and military action that it takes unilaterally in the FSU.

The big problem will come when a country like Ukraine actually becomes part of NATO, and Russia decides to ignore the alliance and occupy territory there. Continuing that line of thinking, Ukraine joins NATO, and Russia annexes Crimea, claiming that it was never really Ukrainian, and Russian citizens there must be protected. NATO is bound by treaty to take action against Russia in that case, and assuming Iraq is over, America now has resources to throw at the problem. That is when things really get interesting.

This is one hypothetical amongst many, and only an example. No need to tear it down - my point is that the next world crisis may be in the FSU. I am curious as to what other VJers think will happen when NATO gets closer to Russia than it is now.

[1HappyGuy 45]

I have to agree, that Russian actions in Georgia have probably accelerated the membership status for Georgia and Ukraine in NATO. I know that in our household we are very concerned that Russia will get more aggressive towards Ukraine. As far as Crimea, Russia is still crying about returning to historical boundaries. With Russia's new economic power and Putin's strongly enforced leadership, they are looking to return to the days of soviet expansion. That doesn't mean Putin wants the soviet union to return, just the land they felt was theirs.

I'm sure Putin is very happy with the level of control he has and doesn't want to lose the power by changing the political system. It's all about power and controlling the people.

[slim 1,523]

I saw on the BBC this morning that the Brit Foreign Minister is in Ukraine to discuss an "alliance against Russian aggression" and accelerated NATO membership.

This is what's truly scary. Coupled with your other post from above, this is the "make it or break it" scenario. We can ignore a country like Georgia all day long but when Ukraine cries for help we're going to have no choice but to "ante up."

I truly hope it never comes to that, but that is probably a pretty accurate scenario of what will be the final "diplomatic" action of the Cold War. Escalation will soon follow.

Scary stuff. I hope by that time I'm safely on my beach somewhere sipping drinks with little umbrellas in them because that's going to get ugly. Real ugly.

[PJB 0]

I saw on the BBC this morning that the Brit Foreign Minister is in Ukraine to discuss an "alliance against Russian aggression" and accelerated NATO membership.

This is what's truly scary. Coupled with your other post from above, this is the "make it or break it" scenario. We can ignore a country like Georgia all day long but when Ukraine cries for help we're going to have no choice but to "ante up."

I truly hope it never comes to that, but that is probably a pretty accurate scenario of what will be the final "diplomatic" action of the Cold War. Escalation will soon follow.

Scary stuff. I hope by that time I'm safely on my beach somewhere sipping drinks with little umbrellas in them because that's going to get ugly. Real ugly.

Why should we go to war for Ukraine? or Georgia? To play who can p*ss the farthest with Russia? I'll put my nukes in Poland and you put your nukes in Cuba then we'll see who is the real king of the world.

NATO is a dinosaur that should have been torn down with the Berlin Wall. It's only purpose is to tease Russia with military threats. If some stupid little president of some stupid little NATO country decides to poke The Bear with a stick, then all of the NATO members have to blow up Europe to save face.

How brilliant.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I saw on the BBC this morning that the Brit Foreign Minister is in Ukraine to discuss an "alliance against Russian aggression" and accelerated NATO membership.

This is what's truly scary. Coupled with your other post from above, this is the "make it or break it" scenario. We can ignore a country like Georgia all day long but when Ukraine cries for help we're going to have no choice but to "ante up."

I truly hope it never comes to that, but that is probably a pretty accurate scenario of what will be the final "diplomatic" action of the Cold War. Escalation will soon follow.

Scary stuff. I hope by that time I'm safely on my beach somewhere sipping drinks with little umbrellas in them because that's going to get ugly. Real ugly.

Why should we go to war for Ukraine? or Georgia? To play who can p*ss the farthest with Russia? I'll put my nukes in Poland and you put your nukes in Cuba then we'll see who is the real king of the world.

NATO is a dinosaur that should have been torn down with the Berlin Wall. It's only purpose is to tease Russia with military threats. If some stupid little president of some stupid little NATO country decides to poke The Bear with a stick, then all of the NATO members have to blow up Europe to save face.

How brilliant.

I think the brilliant thing is that NATO acts as a sort of collar for US aggression and wacky, Iraq-esque policy in that region. America doesn't care any more than Russia does about international opinion, and treaties that force consultation with allies BEFORE taking military action are all good. Sergei Lavrov's comment about Georgia being the West's "little pet" this morning is a clear signal that the escalation isn't over. Ukraines NATO membership would mean that Russia would have to consider carefully before taking any aggressive action there. You can bet that as a member of NATO, Ukraine (like Turkey, Croatia, and others) will force NATO to think very carefully before taking action in a place like Georgia.

[shikarnov 7]

Among all the articles I've read about the conflict, I think this one sums it up pretty well from historic and realistic perspectives.

The question posed throughout is one the West should very carefully consider: How far are we really willing to go in the name of protecting nations from Russia? If Georgia had been a member of NATO, we'd be in the middle of a full scale war. And for what? Because Little Georgia decided to break the 1992 cease-fire agreement South Ossetia and during its campaign there killed Russian troops which were invited to stay in SO to keep the peace?

http://townhall.com/columnists/PatrickJBuc...a_into_the_cold

Another article that I found quite interesting in the news today indicated that Russia was being further isolated -- even amongst its purported allies.

Criticized by the West, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on Thursday asked China and four ex-Soviet nations to sign a declaration of support for Russia's role in the conflict in Georgia.

But Russia's hopes of gathering support were dealt a huge blow when the five countries denounced the use of force and called for respect for every country's territorial integrity. The joint declaration from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization deepens Russia's international isolation.

Medvedev had appealed to the alliance — which consists of Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan — for unanimous support of Russia's response to Georgia's "aggression."

Medvedev's appeal had raised fears in Western capitals of the emergence of a competing strategic alliance to NATO forming around Russia — but the other Asian nations may have been reluctant to strain their relations with Europe and the United States.

Source.

I'd love to find some indication of this development in a Russian source, but all I can find on Russian sites thus far indicate the opposite -- that Russia has the support of those nations.

Strange and stranger.

Z

[shikarnov 7]

Unless I'm translating wrong, this article on Gazeta.Ru's site seems to confirm the above AP story, and indicates that Russia didn't get the full support than it had hoped for from the Chinese et al -- although it didn't make as big a deal about the portions of the comments which disagreed with the Russian position.

Edited August 28, 2008 by shikarnov

[Bobalouie 0]

Based on what I am reading, I would guess that the BIG showdown is still years away. America (probably through NATO) and Russia will continue to antagonize each other, but don't want to actually fight. The political commentators all seem to agree that NATO is completely impotent in limiting Russian intervention in its FSU sphere of influence. Russia is equally impotent in stopping the expansion of NATO in that sphere - in fact accelerates it with each threat and military action that it takes unilaterally in the FSU.

The big problem will come when a country like Ukraine actually becomes part of NATO, and Russia decides to ignore the alliance and occupy territory there. Continuing that line of thinking, Ukraine joins NATO, and Russia annexes Crimea, claiming that it was never really Ukrainian, and Russian citizens there must be protected. NATO is bound by treaty to take action against Russia in that case, and assuming Iraq is over, America now has resources to throw at the problem. That is when things really get interesting.

This is one hypothetical amongst many, and only an example. No need to tear it down - my point is that the next world crisis may be in the FSU. I am curious as to what other VJers think will happen when NATO gets closer to Russia than it is now.

I think you are correct Brad, the first "proxy war" of cold war two has already been fought.