Bush OKs execution of Army death row prisoner

[NavarreMan 10]

But that is part of the problem, we are getting further from the "meat cleaver" approach. We are leaning toward everything is treatable and society pays for it as a whole. I am sure we can find excuses for all behavior if we get the right "experts" to testify. Where do you draw the line? Chikatilo (sp) had a crappy childhood, do you treat him or remove him? What do you do with the Manson's of the world? At some point don't you necessarily have to use the cleaver to draw that line?

Are we really moving away from that approach though? There are still cases where courts refuse to separate the mad from the bad (the big furore over pedophiles being one such example). Clearly you can't excuse the crime, or refuse to acknowledge that such people are dangerous, but you do have cases where clear warning signs were in evidence for months or years before but nothing was done - then it would seem that executing the person is only addressing the least useful aspect of the case and doing little or nothing to prevent similar incidents in the future.

Just one example - Child Services in NY has taken a beating for the murders of several children that were on its at-risk register, because their staff either didn't take the time to investigate or follow up on specific complaints in a timely manner. Were they directly responsible for the child's deaths? Of course not... But clearly the institution failed in such a way that made those crimes possible. Is recognising this less, the same or more important than ensuring that those who actually did the killing are themselves killed...

Clearly its a complex question...

As to "who pays" - well society as a whole always pays. It doesn't recoup the damage by executing its diseased elements.

I see this as 2 distinctly different issues. One is criminal and one is civil. I agree that execution will never bring a victim back but it will prevent the next victim. In removing the perpetrator, you are in effect preventing the next victim by/of that perpetrator.

[NavarreMan 10]

You win! It's quittin' time and I'm headed home to off the UPS man when he knocks on my door.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

But that is part of the problem, we are getting further from the "meat cleaver" approach. We are leaning toward everything is treatable and society pays for it as a whole. I am sure we can find excuses for all behavior if we get the right "experts" to testify. Where do you draw the line? Chikatilo (sp) had a crappy childhood, do you treat him or remove him? What do you do with the Manson's of the world? At some point don't you necessarily have to use the cleaver to draw that line?

Are we really moving away from that approach though? There are still cases where courts refuse to separate the mad from the bad (the big furore over pedophiles being one such example). Clearly you can't excuse the crime, or refuse to acknowledge that such people are dangerous, but you do have cases where clear warning signs were in evidence for months or years before but nothing was done - then it would seem that executing the person is only addressing the least useful aspect of the case and doing little or nothing to prevent similar incidents in the future.

Just one example - Child Services in NY has taken a beating for the murders of several children that were on its at-risk register, because their staff either didn't take the time to investigate or follow up on specific complaints in a timely manner. Were they directly responsible for the child's deaths? Of course not... But clearly the institution failed in such a way that made those crimes possible. Is recognising this less, the same or more important than ensuring that those who actually did the killing are themselves killed...

Clearly its a complex question...

As to "who pays" - well society as a whole always pays. It doesn't recoup the damage by executing its diseased elements.

I see this as 2 distinctly different issues. One is criminal and one is civil. I agree that execution will never bring a victim back but it will prevent the next victim. In removing the perpetrator, you are in effect preventing the next victim by/of that perpetrator.

Well sure - but that's a tad simplistic in my view.

If we look at the example I pointed out earlier regarding Child Services in New York that would seem to disprove your assertion. What happened was that a child was murdered by its "parents" despite numerous warning signs and Child Services being aware of the problem. While this story was making headlines and the "parents" were being indicted for murder, another "risk list" child was killed in similar circumstances.

While we're not talking the Death Penalty in these cases - its a fair bet that these people won't be in a position to do this to another child, but at the same time the underlying problem that allowed it to happen remains unaddressed.

You can draw lines wherever you want...

Edited July 30, 2008 by Number 6

[Peikko 1,575]

You don't have to kill the perpatrator to remove them from society. Killing them does have repercussions, whether you recognize them or not and the horror killing someone who didn't actually commit the crime because of miscarriages of justice? Yes, that still happens and then there is, dare I say it, the fact that there are a disproportionate number of poor, black people sitting on death row...

[wowswift 3]

still more whites on death row http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.ph...=184#inmaterace

seems the reason there are so many people on death row is because they have to sit there for so long. i think texas does them the fastest

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I watched a BBC documentary a few years ago where a prisoner was at the center of a big row over whether or not he should be executed - because during the time he was on Death Row he was diagnosed as Schizophrenic and this was never brought to light at his trial. The man was unemployed and without health benefits and had no means of getting his condition diagnosed or treated.

The debate surrounding him was whether he could still be executed as under the state law (I think it was either Florida or Texas) he could not be executed if he were found "mentally incompetant". Essentially what the State wanted to do - was not dispute the diagnosis of Schizophrenia but provide the man with the medication for his condition so that he would be "well" enough to execute.

I'll have to see if I can find a link to the original story, but as ethical questions go - that's a pretty big one.

[zqt3344 21]

Why not kill them, they caused severe harm on an innocent human being?

Fair enough for correcting the wrong of justices.

THAT IS BECAUSE THOSE DISPROPORTIONATE BLACK PEOPLE COMMITTED A CRIME TO GET THERE AND DESERVE EXACTLY WHAT THEY GET.

" IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME THEN DON'T DO THE CRIME!" - Baretta 1977

You don't have to kill the perpatrator to remove them from society. Killing them does have repercussions, whether you recognize them or not and the horror killing someone who didn't actually commit the crime because of miscarriages of justice? Yes, that still happens and then there is, dare I say it, the fact that there are a disproportionate number of poor, black people sitting on death row...

Edited July 30, 2008 by zqt3344

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And so any pretense of a civilized, reasonable debate goes out the window with the introduction of cliche, blunt thinking and self-righteous outrage.

How very VJ.

[zqt3344 21]

Sixer, please, you confuse me with your large expansive use of the English language. Dumb it down for me please. I am lost?

And so any pretense of a civilized, reasonable debate goes out the window with the introduction of cliche, blunt thinking and self-righteous outrage.

How very VJ.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Lost...

Yep that about covers it.

[Ggreen 12]

Lost...

Yep that about covers it.

[zqt3344 21]

Sixer, your intelligence is overwhelming me, it is more than I can bear! Please keep it simple for me since you are way over my blunt intelligence. Thank you for letting me know all you do. Thank you.

Lost...

Yep that about covers it.

[Ggreen 12]

[Peikko 1,575]

I guess math isn't your strong suit. Proportion...oh well.

[wowswift 3]

i guess im not comparing the entire nation since its criminals who end up in jail. i guess more proportion there. but sorry, people who do these crimes don't deserve to live