Mandela's birthday message: Rich should help poor

[Amby 490]

so when the poor get rich do they give the money back to the rich that helped them?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Besides if anyone's earned the right to live in a big house its Nelson Mandela. I guess only those experiencing crushing poverty can say that the rich owe them something - of course anyone poor who said that in the US would be accused of "entitlement mentality", while a rich person must automatically be labeled a hypocrite.

I'm just gonna say that a man who was a victim of the horror of Apartheid, who spent 24 years in prison, won the Nobel Peace Prize and became the first Black president of South Africa, can certainly make a comment (IMHO) about the need for the rich to give to the poor.

It's not as though he sits in his glass house throwing stones. Mandela made a great number of mistakes in his tenure as president of SA, but he also has done and continues to do, quite a lot of good.

And as I said he's also publicly recognised his failings and tried to make redress at an age when people would reasonably expect him to retire. We're all familiar with politicans f*cking things up and leaving the mess for someone else to clean up.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

so when the poor get rich do they give the money back to the rich that helped them?

are you kidding?

[jundp 191]

Besides if anyone's earned the right to live in a big house its Nelson Mandela. I guess only those experiencing crushing poverty can say that the rich owe them something - of course anyone poor who said that in the US would be accused of "entitlement mentality", while a rich person must automatically be labeled a hypocrite.

I'm just gonna say that a man who was a victim of the horror of Apartheid, who spent 24 years in prison, won the Nobel Peace Prize and became the first Black president of South Africa, can certainly make a comment (IMHO) about the need for the rich to give to the poor.

It's not as though he sits in his glass house throwing stones. Mandela made a great number of mistakes in his tenure as president of SA, but he also has done and continues to do, quite a lot of good.

And as I said he's also publicly recognised his failings and tried to make redress at an age when people would reasonably expect him to retire. We're all familiar with politicans f*cking things up and leaving the mess for someone else to clean up.

so when the poor get rich do they give the money back to the rich that helped them?

are you kidding?

Well maybe they should pass it on to someone else...that's sort of the philosophy I've lived by and it has worked well.

[Amby 490]

so when the poor get rich do they give the money back to the rich that helped them?

are you kidding?

no I'm serious. there's those programs where you can donate to help a person start their business and then they pay you back once their business is going good and they're making enough to live. doesn't have to be rich.

plus, if I were to give someone money to help them out I would expect them to either do the same for someone else when they are in the position to or repay it.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

so when the poor get rich do they give the money back to the rich that helped them?

are you kidding?

no I'm serious. there's those programs where you can donate to help a person start their business and then they pay you back once their business is going good and they're making enough to live. doesn't have to be rich.

plus, if I were to give someone money to help them out I would expect them to either do the same for someone else when they are in the position to or repay it.

it will only be to the point of throwing a dog a bone. how many have made it rich and given to the poor until he or she is among the poor?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

You were silenced in college?

Sure. I even got detention in high school for questioning an economics teacher on how GNP is calculated. You actually believe professors want to hear things that challenge their long-long assumptions? I saw and heard about attempts to disrupt conservative speakers on campus. They usually split up and starting screaming periodically during the speech. I've seen that happen numerous times on TV news coverage as well.

Ever politically disagreed with a teacher in your life and told him or her so?

Hmmm...that's odd. My Free Enterprise HS teacher actually leaned more to the Right as many of my teachers throughout HS and college. I never felt I had to challenge them on their set of views, however, if a point or argument could be made, I certainly wouldn't shy from bringing up as long I wasn't disrupting the class. As for speakers...it seems a bit odd that you would divide them up as either conservative or liberal as not everyone can fit so easily into one set of views.

May I ask - do you have a college degree and if so, what is your major? (just curious)

[jundp 191]

You were silenced in college?

Sure. I even got detention in high school for questioning an economics teacher on how GNP is calculated. You actually believe professors want to hear things that challenge their long-long assumptions? I saw and heard about attempts to disrupt conservative speakers on campus. They usually split up and starting screaming periodically during the speech. I've seen that happen numerous times on TV news coverage as well.

Ever politically disagreed with a teacher in your life and told him or her so?

Hmmm...that's odd. My Free Enterprise HS teacher actually leaned more to the Right as many of my teachers throughout HS and college. I never felt I had to challenge them on their set of views, however, if a point or argument could be made, I certainly wouldn't shy from bringing up as long I wasn't disrupting the class. As for speakers...it seems a bit odd that you would divide them up as either conservative or liberal as not everyone can fit so easily into one set of views.

May I ask - do you have a college degree and if so, what is your major? (just curious)

I teach by the philosophy that my students SHOULD disagree with me, question me, and be prepared to debate (with me or with other students). I want them to question and challenge what is given. Most of my colleagues feel the same way. It is through questioning and preparing sound arguments when one disagrees that these students learn more about themselves and the world around them.

I think a teacher who doesn't allow students to do so is doing a great disservice to the profession, their students, and themselves. As long as questioning or disagreeing is done in the proper context in class and done with respect it's a learning experience for everyone.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

You were silenced in college?

Sure. I even got detention in high school for questioning an economics teacher on how GNP is calculated. You actually believe professors want to hear things that challenge their long-long assumptions? I saw and heard about attempts to disrupt conservative speakers on campus. They usually split up and starting screaming periodically during the speech. I've seen that happen numerous times on TV news coverage as well.

Ever politically disagreed with a teacher in your life and told him or her so?

Hmmm...that's odd. My Free Enterprise HS teacher actually leaned more to the Right as many of my teachers throughout HS and college. I never felt I had to challenge them on their set of views, however, if a point or argument could be made, I certainly wouldn't shy from bringing up as long I wasn't disrupting the class. As for speakers...it seems a bit odd that you would divide them up as either conservative or liberal as not everyone can fit so easily into one set of views.

May I ask - do you have a college degree and if so, what is your major? (just curious)

I teach by the philosophy that my students SHOULD disagree with me, question me, and be prepared to debate (with me or with other students). I want them to question and challenge what is given. Most of my colleagues feel the same way. It is through questioning and preparing sound arguments when one disagrees that these students learn more about themselves and the world around them.

I think a teacher who doesn't allow students to do so is doing a great disservice to the profession, their students, and themselves. As long as questioning or disagreeing is done in the proper context in class and done with respect it's a learning experience for everyone.

I'll wait for alienlovechild to respond, but I honestly have never encountered a teacher whom I felt intimated by their point of view. A lot of them I didn't agree with on many issues, but most of time, the class time was not condusive to an open discussion of ideologies, but rather we focused on issues or events, and most often, the teachers I had didn't make it obvious to us students just what their views were beyond facts.

Edited July 19, 2008 by Jabberwocky

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

so when the poor get rich do they give the money back to the rich that helped them?

are you kidding?

no I'm serious. there's those programs where you can donate to help a person start their business and then they pay you back once their business is going good and they're making enough to live. doesn't have to be rich.

plus, if I were to give someone money to help them out I would expect them to either do the same for someone else when they are in the position to or repay it.

I think your simplifying it a bit. There is a huge wealth-divide in South Africa - the very poorest people are living in shanty towns with limited access to basic amenities.

Having the "rich help the poor" doesn't necessarily involve writing them a check - rather it has a lot to do with building up the infrastructure and investing in the development of the country's future.

[alienlovechild 75]

Which doesn't add anything to the argument. You've demonstrated blatant ignorance about the man's public work, focussing instead on the fact that he owns a house as reason to call him a hypocrite. You honestly think that's entirely fair?

Unlike you 6, I actually looked up Mandela's record on charity and provided a link. Where did say he did no good in his life? To be frank, I really don't care that much about Mandela but pointing out an affluent guy lecturing others on poverty is no different than Gordon Brown and the G-8 leaders having an 8 course meal and talking about rising food prices.

He may well feel a resposibility of guilt, but whether or not he can do much for the country isn't really irrelevant here is it. He's trying to do something (which is more than many people do) - and spending his twilight years doing it, when other people of his age would be expected to have retired from public life altogether.

Then again some politicians love the limelight.

I guess this reference wasn't a comparison between myself (or like minded-people) and Mandela. Silly me.

even if it is in the nature of some jaded American conservatives to spit on someone who has done more for the good of others than they will ever do in their own lives.

Silly you indeed. I will repeat - I neither said nor implied any such thing.

I guess you were referring to someone else. Right

What I am saying (and will say again so that there is no confusion) is that you are deliberately avoiding addressing (dismissing to be sure) Mandela's argument by fixating on the spokesman and not the merits of his argument.

You may view that as "dissent" I view it as dishonest evasion.

This isn't a big enough issue for me to continue. I'll just leave you with this- Mandela managed to avoid the complete collapse of South Africa and halt the mass exodus of White South Africans which would have led the pattern of self-destruction which plagued and still plagues) most of Africa. He did it as symbolic leader which other another leader probably wouldn't have been able to do. He and the ANC didn't do much (to me knowledge) to improve the economy and focusing on wealth redistribution will probably snowball and harm all South Africans in the long run.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

heh...interesting what you can find on the internet.

Check this out...

Gandhi's hypocrisy; anyone is easily as moral as their heroes

Criticism of Gandhi is pretty mainstream. In the town my mothers from, they still celebrate every year by distributing sweets in most Hindu neighborhoods on the day Gandhi was assassinated. Gandhi's a freakin 'demi-god here in the West, in India he's just another goddamn desi

[Sassy1natl 0]

(waiting for someone to ask what desi means)

[one...two...tree 2,762]

heh...interesting what you can find on the internet.

Check this out...

Gandhi's hypocrisy; anyone is easily as moral as their heroes

Criticism of Gandhi is pretty mainstream. In the town my mothers from, they still celebrate every year by distributing sweets in most Hindu neighborhoods on the day Gandhi was assassinated. Gandhi's a freakin 'demi-god here in the West, in India he's just another goddamn desi

Ghandi was a megalomaniac?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

heh...interesting what you can find on the internet.

Check this out...

Gandhi's hypocrisy; anyone is easily as moral as their heroes

Criticism of Gandhi is pretty mainstream. In the town my mothers from, they still celebrate every year by distributing sweets in most Hindu neighborhoods on the day Gandhi was assassinated. Gandhi's a freakin 'demi-god here in the West, in India he's just another goddamn desi

Ghandi was a megalomaniac?

I don't think he was, but there are many (not a small fringe) who do. They think many other things of him, too. It's too much to get into here, but rest assured just because you think an idea is out of the mainstream doesn't make it so.