The point of knives

[SteveLaura 0]

I don't think the real idea is to ban knives as such but to change manufacturing so that more knives are produced without points. As they said, it might not stop knife attacks, but it might reduce them enough to be statistically significant so why not? If most knives do not need points in order to perform their function why give them a point?

Of course, that can't be the only strategy put in place because on its own it's not going to stop all knife attacks. It may not be possible ever to stop all knife attacks but why would anyone not put in place any non intrusive measures that might reduce them?

That's the way I read it.

When it was discovered that lead paint in kid's toys was making them sick, the solution wasn't to ban paint, but to see what could be done to eradicate the harm. In this instance, these doctors - who are seeing too may fatal, impulsive stabbings - are saying remove the largely unnecessary point from knives, not the whole knife itself.

I don't think the real idea is to ban knives as such but to change manufacturing so that more knives are produced without points. As they said, it might not stop knife attacks, but it might reduce them enough to be statistically significant so why not? If most knives do not need points in order to perform their function why give them a point?

Of course, that can't be the only strategy put in place because on its own it's not going to stop all knife attacks. It may not be possible ever to stop all knife attacks but why would anyone not put in place any non intrusive measures that might reduce them?

It really isn't all that hard to give a rounded edge knife a sharp one.

Sure, but most of these attacks aren't pre-meditated, they argue.

[Peikko 1,575]

Yes, but I think what they are saying is that some of these attacks really are heat of the moment and if there wasn't a pointed knife just sitting there it wouldn't happen the same way, there would still be a fight, even injuries, just not so fatal - as it were.

I didn't know about the catalytic converter and the drop in suicide by car. That's interesting.

[natty bumppo 293]

next up .... slasher movies become more popluar ...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Sure, but most of these attacks aren't pre-meditated, they argue.

Right - but the key thing here is in urban situations where these crimes take place - the people doing the stabbing are going around carrying knives. There's no reason to carry a knife on the streets unless you are up to no good. The fact that people do - suggests there is a degree of premedidated intent in subsequent violent acts that they carry out.

[SteveLaura 0]

Sure, but most of these attacks aren't pre-meditated, they argue.

Right - but the key thing here is in urban situations where these crimes take place - the people doing the stabbing are going around carrying knives. There's no reason to carry a knife on the streets unless you are up to no good. The fact that people do - suggests there is a degree of premedidated intent in subsequent violent acts that they carry out.

Proposing to knife manufacturers that they round off their knives when a point is unnecessary isn't going to stop people carrying sharp knives on the streets, I agree. I read this article to suggest that there are many instances where a probably domestic dispute suddenly became a fatal attack due to the fact that it occurred in the kitchen where a pointed knife was handy. They can patch up slashes, but they can't fix a pierced heart.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Sure, but most of these attacks aren't pre-meditated, they argue.

Right - but the key thing here is in urban situations where these crimes take place - the people doing the stabbing are going around carrying knives. There's no reason to carry a knife on the streets unless you are up to no good. The fact that people do - suggests there is a degree of premedidated intent in subsequent violent acts that they carry out.

Proposing to knife manufacturers that they round off their knives when a point is unnecessary isn't going to stop people carrying sharp knives on the streets, I agree. I read this article to suggest that there are many instances where a probably domestic dispute suddenly became a fatal attack due to the fact that it occurred in the kitchen where a pointed knife was handy. They can patch up slashes, but they can't fix a pierced heart.

I could be wrong - but I didn't think Crimes of Passion where what the government was targetting here, but rather street crime involving knives linked to robbery and mugging. Isn't that the biggest source of knife crime?

Edited July 16, 2008 by Number 6

[Saddle Bronc 124]

I don't think the real idea is to ban knives as such but to change manufacturing so that more knives are produced without points. As they said, it might not stop knife attacks, but it might reduce them enough to be statistically significant so why not? If most knives do not need points in order to perform their function why give them a point?

Of course, that can't be the only strategy put in place because on its own it's not going to stop all knife attacks. It may not be possible ever to stop all knife attacks but why would anyone not put in place any non intrusive measures that might reduce them?

It really isn't all that hard to give a rounded edge knife a sharp one.

prisons in almost every country have learned this the hard way. Leavenworth, for example, is known for having a rather extensive collection of siezed "shanks".

[natty bumppo 293]

Sure, but most of these attacks aren't pre-meditated, they argue.

Right - but the key thing here is in urban situations where these crimes take place - the people doing the stabbing are going around carrying knives. There's no reason to carry a knife on the streets unless you are up to no good. The fact that people do - suggests there is a degree of premedidated intent in subsequent violent acts that they carry out.

Proposing to knife manufacturers that they round off their knives when a point is unnecessary isn't going to stop people carrying sharp knives on the streets, I agree. I read this article to suggest that there are many instances where a probably domestic dispute suddenly became a fatal attack due to the fact that it occurred in the kitchen where a pointed knife was handy. They can patch up slashes, but they can't fix a pierced heart.

a blunt trauma (rounded end puncture) which tears flesh ... it only takes a little more force and the blade is still a weapon that can pierce. Just think of the thickness of the blade of the typical kitchen knives ... now blunt it ... it's still a thin stabbing tool ... unless you're willing to have a huge (fat) blunt end ...

[Peikko 1,575]

Sure, but most of these attacks aren't pre-meditated, they argue.

Right - but the key thing here is in urban situations where these crimes take place - the people doing the stabbing are going around carrying knives. There's no reason to carry a knife on the streets unless you are up to no good. The fact that people do - suggests there is a degree of premedidated intent in subsequent violent acts that they carry out.

Proposing to knife manufacturers that they round off their knives when a point is unnecessary isn't going to stop people carrying sharp knives on the streets, I agree. I read this article to suggest that there are many instances where a probably domestic dispute suddenly became a fatal attack due to the fact that it occurred in the kitchen where a pointed knife was handy. They can patch up slashes, but they can't fix a pierced heart.

I could be wrong - but I didn't think Crimes of Passion where what the government was targetting here, but rather street crime involving knives linked to robbery and mugging. Isn't that the biggest source of knife crime?

The article doesn't really tell us that, just that surgeons are suggesting a change in manufacturing could reduce the severity of knife injuries in some instances to an extent that would be significant, at least as far as they are concerned.

I think that's all it's saying and it seems to be that not doing so, when it has no material effect on whether the knife serves the purpose for which it was originally intended, is rather a perverse logic.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I wouldn't be surprised if this is considered for legislation. That said I think the UK has tried enough of these kinds of things to have shown that they don't really work, and while bans on knives and guns might seem like good politics in the aftermath of a particularly horrible tragedy - they cause a lot more problems than they solve, sometimes in ways people don't realise.

Not really related to this - but the UK's manufacturing industry went the way of the dodo years ago (as is happening in the US). Part of the reason for this (and indeed the high cost of many items in the UK) is the extreme cost of setting up shop here, and navigating already labyrinthine laws and regulations regarding health and safety and trade and industry standards.

[Peikko 1,575]

Work? What is considered working? If fewer knives are available with stabbing points then it's quite possible that there would be fewer severe stabbing woundings. I'm all for changing the shape of knives if that could prevent even one or two tragedies a year and it would probably be more. I would be really pissed if the knives didn't do the job they were supposed to but for the most part, when cooking, I don't use the point ever so I don't see any rationale in saying no to this idea.

I do see that this is not the 'answer' to gang crime though of course and the idea that this is some kind of panacea is silly. I don't even think the article suggests that either but then there are so many people that like to 'laugh' at silly others for having their 'toys' taken away from them. Please, that is so 6th grade.

I don't think that is the reason manufacturing faultered in the U.K. Health and safety is blamed for a lot of things some it deserves but many which is does not.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its not THE reason, setting up any business in the UK is expensive not only because of high value of the pound but also because of the myriad mixture of European and UK laws - not just in relation to manufacturing standards. Its not all the controversial to suggest that having to change the specification of a commercial product made or manufactured for the UK market is likely going to have a knock-on effect elsewhere.

I should point out also that the UK has also had a rash of head trauma cases ranging from people being hit over the head with pipes and hammers. Even if we can minimise one type of crime and I'm not sure that we can (given that knives don't exactly have an expiry date) we are clearly limited in the extent to which we can make and enforce design changes of certain tools.

[Peikko 1,575]

What you say is true, but I still don't see any negatives on changing the shape of kitchen knives to remove the sharp point in most instances. It might not change the world, but it might change the outcome of a few brawls.

Of course the government should to continue to work on the social issues that lead to people believing that brawling is a good way to solve disputes but that goes without saying really.

[zqt3344 21]

We need bigger more stronger and longer knives for all Americans to protect themselves against the liberal wackos of this country trying to take their guns away from them.

Most fatal stabbings involve a weapon that is easy to obtain and sharp with it - a kitchen knife. Would stopping the sale of long blades with sharp points help save lives?

What would reduce the number of fatal stabbings? England and Wales' Chief Inspector of Probation Andrew Bridges has warned against "spectacular innovations" and wants the debate to focus on "mundane truths".

One idea, first proposed in 2005, is a response to a grisly mundane truth expressed by Met chief Ian Blair this week - that "the most common knife involved in these deaths is a knife from a kitchen".

The proposal came from three emergency medicine specialists, and it's a simple one: getting rid of the points on the ends of longer kitchen knives.

Drs Emma Hern, Will Glazebrook and Mike Beckett wrote an editorial in the British Medical Journal, suggesting that since "many assaults are impulsive", government action could "drastically reduce the availability" of a "potentially lethal weapon".

So what would the effect have been if, in 2003, the government had persuaded knife manufacturers to offer a greater range of styles, with the pointed-end, long-blade design no longer the default?

Dr Beckett puts it simply: if long pointed knives had become less available, we would have seen fewer deaths from knife injuries.

Of course, there would have been other effects. Other readers of the BMJ were quick to list dishes which need a pointed knife during preparation: butterflying a leg of lamb, carving a forerib of beef, and so on...

However, the idea of pointed knives disappearing completely is not a plausible one - still less the image of policemen requiring every law-abiding home cook to hand over their beloved kitchenware.

In their original article, the doctors argue that most preparation can be done using a combination of a "blunt, round nose" knife and another which, although sharp, is also short enough (under 5cm) to render it less likely to be lethal if used as a weapon.

TV chef Anthony Worrall Thompson agrees, observing that in the Far East, pointed knives are used very rarely and that "for everyday cooking, a square-end or blunt-ended knife is OK".

However, objections to the doctors' proposal have not just been culinary.

A common response has been to point out that inflicting a knife injury is already illegal, and that government effort would be better expended on enforcing existing laws.

This is unsurprising, since the initial article explicitly called for "banning the sale of long pointed knives" - and a call for a ban rarely does more than add another item to the "call to ban..." list.

Calls for bans are also rarely watertight solutions. So while Mothers Against Knives are pro-ban, they are in the minority. West Yorkshire police chief Tom McGhie says it would be "probably impractical and unenforceable in practice".

And MP Roger Gale says that if long pointed knives were banned, "then a panoply of carpenters' and plumbers' 'weapons', such as hammers and screwdrivers, will have to be taken out of circulation".

Dr Beckett denies that this analogy holds, and says that long pointed knives will not always be replaced by similarly fatal weapons. He cites an unintended effect of the switch from coal gas to non-toxic North Sea gas: fewer suicides.

People said, 'oh, if you want to commit suicide, you will find a way.' But it did reduce the rate."

Another unintended reduction in suicide rates has been associated with the introduction of catalytic converters to car. And another drop in suicides came, this time intentional, following the reduction in the quantities in which paracetemol can be bought.

Today, Dr Beckett talks about a change in kitchen culture rather than solely about a ban - and that may be the more intriguing possibility.

It remains a grim picture - the doctors would prefer to deal with non-fatal attacks from cleavers or short pointed knives rather than fatal stabbings.

It's nowhere near a complete solution to the complex problem of knife crime - but neither is it meant to be. Why people carry knives and how they are prosecuted remain different questions.

Rather, says Dr Beckett, it's a possibility for design to help save lives.

"Car manufacturers constantly refine their product to make them less likely to cause harm. Razor blades have been redesigned so as not to slit your throat.

"Kitchen knives could be redesigned so that they retain their cooking function, but are not lethal. But as it stands, you can go into a supermarket and buy for £10 something that's a murder weapon - no questions asked."

BBC

[Ggreen 12]

We need bigger more stronger and longer knives for all Americans to protect themselves against the liberal wackos of this country trying to take their guns away from them.