Natural US citizen, becoming dual national in Europe?

[BigNose42 0]

This is a little reversed from a lot of the postings here I think, so please forgive me.

I am a natural born US citizen. I will be moving to Spain in the near future, and intend to reside there for a long time. Possibly long enough (10 years is required under current Spanish law as I understand it) to have the option to naturalize as a Spanish citizen.

The question is, is it possible for a natural born US citizen to naturalize in to Spain (or to leverage years of living as a permanent resident alien in Spain to naturalize in to another European member state) withOUT losing their US citizenship?

Technically, since the process of naturalizing in to most countries requires taking an oath to that country, it violates the US' prohibition on a US citizen ever taking an oath to a foreign government. Practically, does this matter? Or does the foreign government just want to hear the standard words, and nobody ever bothers to tell the US?

Aside, my spouse is a permanent resident alien in the US, but is a citizen of Japan. Would it be easier / better for my spouse to be the one to naturalize in Spain and I just piggy-back on her (years from now) new-found freedom to live and work all over Europe as the then-spouse of a (newly minted) European citizen?

Thanks.

[Stef and Kel 0]

This is a little reversed from a lot of the postings here I think, so please forgive me.

I am a natural born US citizen. I will be moving to Spain in the near future, and intend to reside there for a long time. Possibly long enough (10 years is required under current Spanish law as I understand it) to have the option to naturalize as a Spanish citizen.

The question is, is it possible for a natural born US citizen to naturalize in to Spain (or to leverage years of living as a permanent resident alien in Spain to naturalize in to another European member state) withOUT losing their US citizenship?

Technically, since the process of naturalizing in to most countries requires taking an oath to that country, it violates the US' prohibition on a US citizen ever taking an oath to a foreign government. Practically, does this matter? Or does the foreign government just want to hear the standard words, and nobody ever bothers to tell the US?

Aside, my spouse is a permanent resident alien in the US, but is a citizen of Japan. Would it be easier / better for my spouse to be the one to naturalize in Spain and I just piggy-back on her (years from now) new-found freedom to live and work all over Europe as the then-spouse of a (newly minted) European citizen?

Thanks.

Disclaimer: I can only speak for myself and my situation. I am a natural born citizen of the US and a naturalized citizen of Italy. I acquired citizenship through marriage and my three children all dual nationals. My husband is in the process of acquiring his US naturalization. I also have an American friend who naturalized after 10 years of residence. Neither she nor I were required to give up our US citizenship. I have friends who have lived in Italy for years and are afraid to become citizens for fear of losing their US citizenship but I was told that there is a "don't ask don't tell" policy between the two countries.

I don't see any advantage to you piggy backing onto her. It will take the same amount time for both of you (if she were a EU citizen, it would be different)

Meantime, as a resident of a European nation, you are pretty free to travel, work and live just as a citizen. I say, Go for it!

K

[Old Dominion 26]

This is a little reversed from a lot of the postings here I think, so please forgive me.

I am a natural born US citizen. I will be moving to Spain in the near future, and intend to reside there for a long time. Possibly long enough (10 years is required under current Spanish law as I understand it) to have the option to naturalize as a Spanish citizen.

The question is, is it possible for a natural born US citizen to naturalize in to Spain (or to leverage years of living as a permanent resident alien in Spain to naturalize in to another European member state) withOUT losing their US citizenship?

Technically, since the process of naturalizing in to most countries requires taking an oath to that country, it violates the US' prohibition on a US citizen ever taking an oath to a foreign government. Practically, does this matter? Or does the foreign government just want to hear the standard words, and nobody ever bothers to tell the US?

Aside, my spouse is a permanent resident alien in the US, but is a citizen of Japan. Would it be easier / better for my spouse to be the one to naturalize in Spain and I just piggy-back on her (years from now) new-found freedom to live and work all over Europe as the then-spouse of a (newly minted) European citizen?

Thanks.

Disclaimer: I can only speak for myself and my situation. I am a natural born citizen of the US and a naturalized citizen of Italy. I acquired citizenship through marriage and my three children all dual nationals. My husband is in the process of acquiring his US naturalization. I also have an American friend who naturalized after 10 years of residence. Neither she nor I were required to give up our US citizenship. I have friends who have lived in Italy for years and are afraid to become citizens for fear of losing their US citizenship but I was told that there is a "don't ask don't tell" policy between the two countries.

I don't see any advantage to you piggy backing onto her. It will take the same amount time for both of you (if she were a EU citizen, it would be different)

Meantime, as a resident of a European nation, you are pretty free to travel, work and live just as a citizen. I say, Go for it!

K

Go do it! Dual citizenship is authorized by the U.S. without any problem. This link explains the matter, even though it is written by our consulate in Australia

http://usembassy-australia.state.gov/consular/dualnat.html

[lucyrich 20]

Here's much of the same info, but from the department of state's website, instead of from a particular consulate's site:

http://www.travel.state.gov/law/citizenshi...enship_778.html

There aren't many ways to lose US citizenship, and they're the same whether you were born a citizen or went through naturalization. In all cases, the law says that, in order to lose citizenship, you must perform an expatriating act voluntarily and with the intention of losing US Citizenship. It's impossible to accidentally lose US Citizenship. If you want to keep US Citizenship, then you've kept it.

There are a few countries that might require that, in order for you to become a citizen of their country, you've got to go to a US consulate and follow their procedure to relinquish your old citizenship. If you want to naturalize into one of these countries, you probably can't do it while retaining US Citizenship. But if you naturalize into any other country, you can retain US Citizenship.

[BigNose42 0]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Someone did identify the key concern I have: In order to voluntarily naturalize, I would have to take an oath to the Spanish government, and I might (depending on what the Spanish naturalization ceremony involves) have to foreswear (to the Spanish, the US wouldn't know, but I'd still technically be doing it) my US citizenship.

This would put me in direct violation of the US passport renewal form's requirement to disclose if I had ever either 1) sworn allegiance to a foreign government, or 2) foresworn US citizenship.

I don't like the idea of perjuring myself on a US government form - it's a criminal act.

So, am I just being too principled, or am I basically right that voluntary naturalization would put me in this bind?

(That's why I asked whether having my spouse, a Japanese citizen, become the European dual national, might avoid some problems, assuming that the Japanese government has different rules on its passport renewal forms!)

Thanks.

[NickD 203]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Someone did identify the key concern I have: In order to voluntarily naturalize, I would have to take an oath to the Spanish government, and I might (depending on what the Spanish naturalization ceremony involves) have to foreswear (to the Spanish, the US wouldn't know, but I'd still technically be doing it) my US citizenship.

This would put me in direct violation of the US passport renewal form's requirement to disclose if I had ever either 1) sworn allegiance to a foreign government, or 2) foresworn US citizenship.

I don't like the idea of perjuring myself on a US government form - it's a criminal act.

So, am I just being too principled, or am I basically right that voluntary naturalization would put me in this bind?

(That's why I asked whether having my spouse, a Japanese citizen, become the European dual national, might avoid some problems, assuming that the Japanese government has different rules on its passport renewal forms!)

Thanks.

What's the deal with Spain? Step son and niece were talking about moving there, exciting country, speak their native language, job opportunities, etc. And my wife's friend two kids moved there rather than coming to the USA, they were grown. Have to admit, as a natural born US citizen was extremely ignorant about our own immigration system, just thought I could marry my wife, bring her here and live happily ever after. An immigrant to this country requires a sponsor with a couple of bucks in his pocket that has to petition for that person. One form after another, one stage after another, a few years ago, all this red tape and frankly some nonsense, okay, a lot of nonsense just to live together. She can't drive, work, travel nor do anything until all this paper work is done, you know the story, why am I repeating it?

So what about Spain, same deal? Do you need a sponsor? If you just go there, are you an illegal? The older guys in the military told me Spain was the best duty, on privates pay could live in a villa and have several servants, essentially live like a king on peanuts. Guess all that is changed now, did get on the net and looked at some home prices, wow! Sticker shock! Do you have to become a permanent resident? Pay a bunch of taxes? Ha, never was asked by the USCIS if my wife and I are having sex together, seemed to be a lot more interested in if we are paying taxes together, but were very interested in our personal relationship before we got married, again, you know that story.

Can you just live in Spain as a US citizen? What about working and health insurance? Just interested in why Spain. Should have talked with my step son more or somebody that moved there.

Spain doesn't seem to be the same imperialistic country they were in the 16th century, doesn't have much a military to support, and it sounds like the people there are having a good time.

[lucyrich 20]

I might (depending on what the Spanish naturalization ceremony involves) have to foreswear (to the Spanish, the US wouldn't know, but I'd still technically be doing it) my US citizenship.

This would put me in direct violation of the US passport renewal form's requirement to disclose if I had ever either 1) sworn allegiance to a foreign government, or 2) foresworn US citizenship.

I don't like the idea of perjuring myself on a US government form - it's a criminal act.

So, am I just being too principled, or am I basically right that voluntary naturalization would put me in this bind?

You're not too principled. Perjury is never a good idea. It would be especially stupid to commit perjury when it's of absolutely no benefit to you.

If you read the law, and those links, you'll find that it's perfectly OK to naturalize into a different country, and you don't lose your citizenship by doing so, providing you don't want to lose your US citizenship. That's both the law (INA 349) and the State Department policy.

So what about the DS-82? The exact language you have to sign is "I am a citizen or non-citizen national of the United States and have not, since acquiring U.S. citizenship or nationality, performed any of the acts listed under “Acts or Conditions” on the reverse side of this application (unless explanatory statement is attached);". If you carefully read the instructions, you see that you may line out the phrase that doesn't apply and attach an explanatory statement. So you attach an explanatory statement saying that you naturalized as a Spanish Citizen, but that in so doing, you did not intend to give up your US Citizenship.

See here for the State department policy http://www.travel.state.gov/law/citizenshi...enship_778.html

Note that it says "When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship."

[BigNose42 0]

lucyrich, you rule! Thank you!

That Dept of State web page is exactly what I was looking for!

Now, hoping that, ten years from now when any of this becomes applicable, things haven't changed for the worse

Cheers.

[BigNose42 0]

What's the deal with Spain? Step son and niece were talking about moving there, exciting country, speak their native language, job opportunities, etc. And my wife's friend two kids moved there rather than coming to the USA, they were grown. Have to admit, as a natural born US citizen was extremely ignorant about our own immigration system, just thought I could marry my wife, bring her here and live happily ever after. An immigrant to this country requires a sponsor with a couple of bucks in his pocket that has to petition for that person. One form after another, one stage after another, a few years ago, all this red tape and frankly some nonsense, okay, a lot of nonsense just to live together. She can't drive, work, travel nor do anything until all this paper work is done, you know the story, why am I repeating it?

So what about Spain, same deal? Do you need a sponsor? If you just go there, are you an illegal? The older guys in the military told me Spain was the best duty, on privates pay could live in a villa and have several servants, essentially live like a king on peanuts. Guess all that is changed now, did get on the net and looked at some home prices, wow! Sticker shock! Do you have to become a permanent resident? Pay a bunch of taxes? Ha, never was asked by the USCIS if my wife and I are having sex together, seemed to be a lot more interested in if we are paying taxes together, but were very interested in our personal relationship before we got married, again, you know that story.

Can you just live in Spain as a US citizen? What about working and health insurance? Just interested in why Spain. Should have talked with my step son more or somebody that moved there.

Spain doesn't seem to be the same imperialistic country they were in the 16th century, doesn't have much a military to support, and it sounds like the people there are having a good time.

One cannot "live" on a long-term basis in most countries other than their country of citizenship (or within regional political alliances such as the European Union), unless they obtain a residence visa.

If one is independently wealthy, obtaining a residence visa may not be very hard. Most of us aren't that wealthy, except, maybe, in retirement.

If you want (or, want aside, need) to work in your new place of residence, then things are generally a bit of a pain.

For me, as a US citizen, moving to Spain, I require sponsorship (which I have from the company which wants to hire me in Spain), or I could try applying independently. In theory, an individual might be able to demonstrate such valuable skills, such skills generally in too-short supply in the country, that the country might grant an independent work visa. Very rare. In such a case, the person who has received that visa must show continued employment, and must arrive with sufficient funds to avoid becoming a problem for the state welfare system. The other way an individual can apply for an independent work visa is to show up with lots of money and a good business plan to invest that money in the country and cause a bunch of new jobs to be created. (See "independently wealthy" above!)

Why do people want to go to Spain? Generally good weather, excellent wine, good food widely available, better balance between work and leisure than many other places, and a willingness (or preference) to live in a more socialist society [this has both good and bad; some of us, such as myself, even if we're not particularly socialist, are quite happy to give it a try on the grounds that the less socialist alternatives don't seem to work out a whole lot better in some important ways anyhow].

For people from more socially restrictive regimes (such as my home United States), who are "alternative", they may wish to move to Spain (or one of a few other countries) where their human right to marry the person (and gender) of their choosing is respected.

Yes, you almost always have to pay lots of taxes; more to the point, you have to pay the taxes of the place(s) you live. Most countries demand taxation of their own citizens, as well as their residents. So, for me, I will continue to have to file US tax returns indefinitely, no matter how long I live in Spain. I will also have to file Spanish tax returns. On the whole, my overall tax burden will go up. I take this in to account in my financial calculations, just like Spain will take my probable income (and tax paying) level in to THEIR calculation of whether they want me there

Cheers.

[philipem 0]

What's the deal with Spain? Step son and niece were talking about moving there, exciting country, speak their native language, job opportunities, etc. And my wife's friend two kids moved there rather than coming to the USA, they were grown. Have to admit, as a natural born US citizen was extremely ignorant about our own immigration system, just thought I could marry my wife, bring her here and live happily ever after. An immigrant to this country requires a sponsor with a couple of bucks in his pocket that has to petition for that person. One form after another, one stage after another, a few years ago, all this red tape and frankly some nonsense, okay, a lot of nonsense just to live together. She can't drive, work, travel nor do anything until all this paper work is done, you know the story, why am I repeating it?

So what about Spain, same deal? Do you need a sponsor? If you just go there, are you an illegal? The older guys in the military told me Spain was the best duty, on privates pay could live in a villa and have several servants, essentially live like a king on peanuts. Guess all that is changed now, did get on the net and looked at some home prices, wow! Sticker shock! Do you have to become a permanent resident? Pay a bunch of taxes? Ha, never was asked by the USCIS if my wife and I are having sex together, seemed to be a lot more interested in if we are paying taxes together, but were very interested in our personal relationship before we got married, again, you know that story.

Can you just live in Spain as a US citizen? What about working and health insurance? Just interested in why Spain. Should have talked with my step son more or somebody that moved there.

Spain doesn't seem to be the same imperialistic country they were in the 16th century, doesn't have much a military to support, and it sounds like the people there are having a good time.

One cannot "live" on a long-term basis in most countries other than their country of citizenship (or within regional political alliances such as the European Union), unless they obtain a residence visa.

If one is independently wealthy, obtaining a residence visa may not be very hard. Most of us aren't that wealthy, except, maybe, in retirement.

If you want (or, want aside, need) to work in your new place of residence, then things are generally a bit of a pain.

For me, as a US citizen, moving to Spain, I require sponsorship (which I have from the company which wants to hire me in Spain), or I could try applying independently. In theory, an individual might be able to demonstrate such valuable skills, such skills generally in too-short supply in the country, that the country might grant an independent work visa. Very rare. In such a case, the person who has received that visa must show continued employment, and must arrive with sufficient funds to avoid becoming a problem for the state welfare system. The other way an individual can apply for an independent work visa is to show up with lots of money and a good business plan to invest that money in the country and cause a bunch of new jobs to be created. (See "independently wealthy" above!)

Why do people want to go to Spain? Generally good weather, excellent wine, good food widely available, better balance between work and leisure than many other places, and a willingness (or preference) to live in a more socialist society [this has both good and bad; some of us, such as myself, even if we're not particularly socialist, are quite happy to give it a try on the grounds that the less socialist alternatives don't seem to work out a whole lot better in some important ways anyhow].

For people from more socially restrictive regimes (such as my home United States), who are "alternative", they may wish to move to Spain (or one of a few other countries) where their human right to marry the person (and gender) of their choosing is respected.

Yes, you almost always have to pay lots of taxes; more to the point, you have to pay the taxes of the place(s) you live. Most countries demand taxation of their own citizens, as well as their residents. So, for me, I will continue to have to file US tax returns indefinitely, no matter how long I live in Spain. I will also have to file Spanish tax returns. On the whole, my overall tax burden will go up. I take this in to account in my financial calculations, just like Spain will take my probable income (and tax paying) level in to THEIR calculation of whether they want me there

Cheers.

Old thread but just so you know, the US exempts a large portion of your earnings from employment outside the US from taxation, I think it's $75,000 but I'm not sure. Also be aware that the US appears to be the ONLY nation that taxes non-residents ...that is, only the US taxes us on foreign earnings as far as I know. That says something. In fact, if you did successfully renounce US citizenship, you would still have to pay US taxes for ten years afterward. Now that's chutzpah!

I have the pleasure of being a dual national with US and Irish citizenship. Let me know what you think of Spain, I may join you.

[philipem 0]

This is a little reversed from a lot of the postings here I think, so please forgive me.

I am a natural born US citizen. I will be moving to Spain in the near future, and intend to reside there for a long time. Possibly long enough (10 years is required under current Spanish law as I understand it) to have the option to naturalize as a Spanish citizen.

The question is, is it possible for a natural born US citizen to naturalize in to Spain (or to leverage years of living as a permanent resident alien in Spain to naturalize in to another European member state) withOUT losing their US citizenship?

Technically, since the process of naturalizing in to most countries requires taking an oath to that country, it violates the US' prohibition on a US citizen ever taking an oath to a foreign government. Practically, does this matter? Or does the foreign government just want to hear the standard words, and nobody ever bothers to tell the US?

Aside, my spouse is a permanent resident alien in the US, but is a citizen of Japan. Would it be easier / better for my spouse to be the one to naturalize in Spain and I just piggy-back on her (years from now) new-found freedom to live and work all over Europe as the then-spouse of a (newly minted) European citizen?

Thanks.

Spain has enacted temporary changes to its citizenship laws as of Dec 2008 that allow those with a historic connection to Spain to gain or regain citizenship in as little as 1 or 2 years in some circumstances. Mentioned that just in case it might apply. Actually you might be better off going to some other EU country; the times are usually shorter. If you have any Greek ancestry at all you should explore Greek citizenship. My grandmother was born in Ireland, I have Irish nationality. You realize your wife will lose her green card if she is in Spain that long?

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Go for it.

My wife, who is a naturalized USC (she came here when she was a child), will apply for Italian citizenship just 3 weeks before I will apply for US citizenship (btw, let's not complain about how hard USCIS makes things, you should see what is required to acquire Italian citizenship - and it could take up to 3 years).

No problem whatsoever. The U.S. will always recognize her as a US citizen and not as an Italian citizen anyways.

Needless to say, our kids (when the time comes) will all be dual citizens.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Btw guys, things in the EU are much worse than in the US.

Spain's unemployment rate is skyrocketing, for example.

Also, you pay way more tax (usually) than here and salaries are much lower.

[moonhunt 1]

lucyrich, you rule! Thank you!

That Dept of State web page is exactly what I was looking for!

Now, hoping that, ten years from now when any of this becomes applicable, things haven't changed for the worse

Cheers.

One thing you may have to know for dual citizenship situation.

US is only country I know that you have to pay for taxes no matter where you earned.

That means that if you live in Spain as Spanish citizen, you still have to pay federal tax to IRS from oversea income.

If Spain and U.S. have tax treaty, you can get deducted the tax paid to Spain government from U.S. Federal Tax return.

OR you may have some standard deduction per tax treaty.

But you have to consult CPA for it, and have to report U.S. Federal tax return no matter where you live.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Most western countries have treaties with the US in order to avoid double taxation.

The threshold is about $80,000 plus a housing allowance, which is much less than it used to be. Housing allowance depends on the cost of living of the metropolitan area in which you reside.

However, if the country you live in taxes you more than the US (very likely in Western Europe), than you don't have to pay a penny to the US (but still have to file a tax return).

If the country taxes you less, than you have to pay the difference between what you would have paid in the US and what you actually paid abroad. This kicks in after the above deductions.

This is good if the US and the foreign country have a treaty. If they don't, then just don't go!