VSC Processing

[Dr. Nick 0]

As for the 15 minute processing times. Yes, this is for the basic petition. Like it or not, everything did change after 9/11. It is a fact that there are countries in this world that do pose a greater security risk than others. And there are greater possibilities of fraud. These countries do cause a longer process for accomplishing the security checks.

The people who commited the acts on 9/11 were here in the United States on student visas, studying in the US. I remember the outrage when this came out. People were asking how our government could let this happen? Now that they are doing something to try to prevent it from happening, like the people demanded, they are complaining about it. I'm sorry but you cannot have it both ways.

P-lease. It took 3 months for my petition to even be in the system. Were they working hard on checking the names on the petition during those 3 months? Hell no, they haven't even opened the package I sent. Wouldn't you want to know if the person trying to get visa is someone dangerous or not ASAP and not a year later? Are you implying that USCIS has been working on my petition, checking names etc every day for the past 9 months or so? Do you think EU and other countries are letting anyone in, just like that? Do you think that only US needs to deal with the threats? The 'security' argument is only being used as an excuse to justify their inefficiencies and hide behind it. And even considering the high numbers of the applications/petitions and the fluctuations, the processing times are still unacceptable.

[Karaoke 0]

Amen to that!! Spot on

P-lease. It took 3 months for my petition to even be in the system. Were they working hard on checking the names on the petition during those 3 months? Hell no, they haven't even opened the package I sent. Wouldn't you want to know if the person trying to get visa is someone dangerous or not ASAP and not a year later? Are you implying that USCIS has been working on my petition, checking names etc every day for the past 9 months or so? Do you think EU and other countries are letting anyone in, just like that? Do you think that only US needs to deal with the threats? The 'security' argument is only being used as an excuse to justify their inefficiencies and hide behind it. And even considering the high numbers of the applications/petitions and the fluctuations, the processing times are still unacceptable.

[Steve Y Jessica 1]

Ok, and again let me start by saying that I in no way am saying there is not a problem with the USCIS that needs to be fixed. There are huge problems there!! They do need to look at the operation and do something to fix the process.

That being said, you cannot compare the immigration process of the United states to any other country. And yes, there is also a law in the United states about families not being together, this is why they do not put a cap on the number of family based visas!! The United States receives a HUGE amount more of visa petitions than any other country in the world. So yes, the processing time is going to be longer for the United States than another country. Could the USCIS do something to improve this? Yes they can, and they need to!!! Because the system, as it is now, is broke. BUT, you cannot compare apples to oranges.

Also, the way they operate with the visa process causes spikes in the number of visa applications. IE, when they set a date for a certain type of visa petition. And when they stop approving the visa petitions after a certain point, this induces a spike in the petitions that they receive. They need to have a way that eliminates these spikes in the number of visa petitions.

The area of my degree is in business. And the USCIS has to operate as a business. Some companies will look at where they have spikes in workload and hire temp workers. Some companies will not. You cannot staff your business for the spikes in workload, it does not make financial sense. You have to staff for the average. Otherwise you will have everyone busy during the spikes in workload and people sitting around getting paid for doing nothing during the low workload times. And you cannot always hire temp workers. Depending on the job, it costs alot of money and time to train someone for a particular job. And again, depending on the job, it does not make financial sense to spend this time and money to train someone for a temp job. Instead, you perform a financial analysis to determine the optimal number of workers that you need and the cost benefit of hiring more or less employees. Like it or not, the USCIS has to operate as a business. BUT, there are things that they can and should do to repair their operation.

As for the 15 minute processing times. Yes, this is for the basic petition. Like it or not, everything did change after 9/11. It is a fact that there are countries in this world that do pose a greater security risk than others. And there are greater possibilities of fraud. These countries do cause a longer process for accomplishing the security checks.

The people who commited the acts on 9/11 were here in the United States on student visas, studying in the US. I remember the outrage when this came out. People were asking how our government could let this happen? Now that they are doing something to try to prevent it from happening, like the people demanded, they are complaining about it. I'm sorry but you cannot have it both ways.

Again, I do not support the the way the USCIS is being run, it is terrible!! They need someone to go in and revamp the whole place and put new processes in place to fix the system. But even after putting processes in place to make it run better, there will alway be longer processing times than other countries due to the shear volume of petitions. And there will be some people who will be put through stricter security checks.

USCIS is not a business. They don't have profit margins to worry about. They don't have shareholders that they have to be held accountable. No board of directors that can be voted out for poor performance. I know you will say voters, unfortunately no one there is in an elected position. Even if they were, at a bare minimum, only 50% of of the people involved in this process can even vote. They have a monopoly. There is no other competitor in this market, so if the customer is un-satisfied, there is no other option. So this is definitely not a business. And the rules of business do not apply.

Why can't you compare the US to other countries? Since there is no domestic competition in this "business," the only other option is to look at other countries that offer the same services, namely family based immigration. If the USCIS wants to take 5 years to process a K-3 petition, what are you going to do? Go to their competition? You can't. You are stuck and that's all there is to it.

Correct, it is not a business in the fact that there is competition they have to worry about. But they are a business in the fact that they are given a buget that they have to work within. In this respect, they have to look at staying within this buget and not making decisions that will exceed their buget and make poor business sense.

And again, I agree that the USCIS is completely F'd up and something needs to be done to fix it.

And I am just saying that you cannot compare time frames of our immigeation to other countries. Other countries do not receive anywhere close to the volume of petitions that we do.

[babybebita 0]

ok, so for the ones interested in comparing running this operation like a business, i have something to share:

approx annual wages (included benefits) for an averagely educated worker: $50,000 if you want to hire but pay by the hour

approx annual salary (included benefits) for an averagely educated worker: $75,000 if you want to make it a fixed 40hr, 9-5 schedule

approx annual cost (at 2000 hrs/yr) for temporary help for an averagely educated worker: $30,000 if you want to use temporary agency workers

lets give the majority of i-130 applications an average processing time of 15 min (if all of the information to approve is present) Assume a Probability of 50%.

Let's give the workers 10 minutes to determine that the submitted i-130 petition does not have all the information required to make an approval. Probability of 25%.

Let's give the "problematic" petitions 45 minutes to make a determination (maybe they have to confer with colleages/supervisors about the case before making a determination, maybe investigate in rule books, etc.) probability 25%

simple mathematical assumptions so far.

now, lets take one worker and using 2000 hours as an average benchmark lets calculate the number of applications they could do if they are not "specialized" into a type of application (this gives you most flexibility but least productivity) (If you are looking for the opposite:maximum productivity with little flexibility then you should specialize the work crew)

the average time for an application using the above probabilities would be: .25x45min + .25x10min +.5x15min = 21.44 minutes

2000 hrs of productive work x 60 min = 120,000 min of productive work in a year

120,000 / 21.44= 5597 applications processed on average

Lets say that you want this worker to be FREE to the government, off their budgets, paid by the users, then lets divide his salary (the highest cost above) by the number of applications: $75,000 / 5597 = $13.40

Now tell me please, who would not gladly pay an ADDITIONAL $13.40 to the already obscene amount in fees to get their petition processed in due time?

lets say you have a backlog of 150,000 applications.

if we follow the above logic and define that there is about a 21.44 minute work content in each, you have about: 150,000 x 21.44 = 3,216,000min = 53,600 hours of work

at 2000 hrs of productive work per year per worker, you would need one year and 27 additional workers to erradicate the work backlog. If you want to do this in 6 months you would need 54 additional workers (not working on new petitions) or if you want to be nice and do it in 3 months you would need 71 new workers.

So please, don't tell me its not worth it to hire an additional crew of 71 people (which petitioners would gladly pay for) and eliminate the backlog of petitions in 3-6 months.

Please change your own numbers and assumptions from mine, do your own sensitivity analysis (for example assume productivity losses and use only an 80 percent productive rate or change the work content to 45 min average processing times or to 1hr if you wish) but i doubt your calculations will change how horribly mismanages this system is.

The people managing this should be held accountable in some fashion. This is not a numbers game. People's lives and well-being are being erroded every day while they wait to be reunited by this ridiculously mismanaged system that lacks one ounce of accountability.

[000 0]

As for the 15 minute processing times. Yes, this is for the basic petition. Like it or not, everything did change after 9/11. It is a fact that there are countries in this world that do pose a greater security risk than others. And there are greater possibilities of fraud. These countries do cause a longer process for accomplishing the security checks.

The people who commited the acts on 9/11 were here in the United States on student visas, studying in the US. I remember the outrage when this came out. People were asking how our government could let this happen? Now that they are doing something to try to prevent it from happening, like the people demanded, they are complaining about it. I'm sorry but you cannot have it both ways.

P-lease. It took 3 months for my petition to even be in the system. Were they working hard on checking the names on the petition during those 3 months? Hell no, they haven't even opened the package I sent. Wouldn't you want to know if the person trying to get visa is someone dangerous or not ASAP and not a year later? Are you implying that USCIS has been working on my petition, checking names etc every day for the past 9 months or so? Do you think EU and other countries are letting anyone in, just like that? Do you think that only US needs to deal with the threats? The 'security' argument is only being used as an excuse to justify their inefficiencies and hide behind it. And even considering the high numbers of the applications/petitions and the fluctuations, the processing times are still unacceptable.

The sad thing is that VSC has not even touched your petition, while the security checks can be seen in other cases, such as touches with no outcome(this does not include the pairing with the I-129F/I-130), and they drag thier feet for months. It is true that USCIS can use the national security exscuse all they want and no one questions them but the average time to process a petition once in someones hands is 15 minutes. You would think that since they decide on a petition so fast that there would be no need to take forever to do them but since USCIS had created a hole for themselves almost 1 year ago with the fee increase they have been struggling to get out of that hole for a long time which caused them to switch their resources to the things that are getting the most attention in the media and with the big wigs who want voters(considering how big an issue immigration is this year). They created a back log that they couldnt handle and family visas got the shaft. Its like david and the goliath but none of us have the slingshot.

[gogo 6]

http://ndnblog.org/node/2097

from this article...

"The agency has begun to hire an additional 1,500 employees, of whom 723 are adjudicators. To date, 580 have been hired, including 274 adjudicators"

274 more people were hired.. to tell you the truth, there probably never was a backlog.. now they have an excuse to raise the fees and hire more lazy workers.. (if your calculations are correct)... with 274 more workers, it would probably only take a week or two to clear the backlogs... Also, if you are under security checks, just send a letter to the president (or FBI).. they will tell you that you don't have a security check and that it's all false.. most of their security checks are done within 48-72 hours anyway.. so at most a week (or a month)... but nothing like 6-8 months to get approved... that is ridiculous..

Edited July 11, 2008 by gogo

[Karaoke 0]

Correct. Nor do they earmark as many tax dollars for their immigration processes or charge as much!!! In some countries, petitioners do not pay anything! And I doubt there is any other country with as many immigration officers!

It is all about EFFICIENCY, my friends, not about sheer numbers. How much INPUT? How much OUTPUT??

The USCIS system is simply antiquated and in constant crisis mode. You cannot work well in "crisis mode". They need to take STRUCTURAL changes and POLITICAL decisions.

I always laugh when I read: "the system is what it is" (therefore you cannot criticize the system or try to change it).

That is such a moot point. EVERYTHING is a choice, a political choice. It is a CHOICE that one type of visa is prioritized over others, it is a CHOICE that some countries process spousal visas in a MUCH faster ways (from a few hours to a few weeks in most European countries, most of them with automatic "K3-like" rights). It is a choice if you want to make people wait for years because you do not want to fix the system and you choose unaccountable bureaucrats to run it.

It is all about political decisions. And POLITICS is fallible and can be improved with good will and action.

However I do not see any point hoping too much in the electoral process, right now... WHO on Earth votes mainly based on their own dramatic experience with immigration? Few I am afraid. Immigration as we discuss it daily in these forums is hardly on the political agenda. Illegal immigration is on the agenda, building walls is, keeping people out is, lacking talented skills for IT companies is too...

Once you have immigrated, you probably forget the problem, you have reached your goals, and the people that come after you, well, you waited, they can wait too. You probably vote based on D or R, black or white, like the man or prefer the woman, helps your business, gives you better education/health care for your sons, lets you keep your guns, lower the price of your SUV gasoline etc..

This is the standard average human nature, care very little about the common problems and good, even less about politics per se, politics is politicians' work, not mine... We cannot deny this is how it normally works.. I am not saying everyone thinks this way, just the majority.

Whether one system of immigration checks or the other, is better, it's everyone's opinion.

To me it is a no-brainer that families (as defined by "married couples": you do not like my opinion: ok, but I think this way) should be reunified ASAP with RELATIVE priority over fiancees or other types of VISAs.

To me, it is a no brainer that some countries of origins are more proned to visa frauds, but everyone pays almost equally for that (and that's not right); to me it is a no brainer that some countries apply in much larger numbers but do not get any "expedite system", by which I mean more flexible DCF rules and more dedicated resources.

To me it is a no brainer that there is NO equity in the system other than the equity that the system's lawmakers (the legislators and politicians) want to give it.

All this goes down first of all to political choices that at the moment are beyond everyday's political life, and I doubt will ever come to the foreground.

I have been called a bigot because I said USCIS should "discriminate "(for lack of a better word) based on a series of parameters and benchmarks for RISK CONTROL and efficiency gains' purposes. HOWEVER, risk control and efficiency gains should be SECONDARY to political choices.

It seems to me it is clear that they right now the political choices that have been taken are detrimental to legal immigration. The US has made the political choice of making immigration hard and has made the political choice of associating risk control to a lengthy series of steps we all know. If this is right or wrong, you all can decide for yourselves.

If we want to change this (and for sure this will take decades)

a/we must lobby politicians sensitive to these political choices, if any is around

b/we must HUMBLY learn (very hard when the "right or wrong, my country" hybris rules...) from countries that have something to teach about immigration.

c/ by trial and error, the system must be structurally reformed from the inside and the external budget/funding must be increased to "catch-up", while driving a movement for better accountability of USCIS and the eventual goal of self-funding.

And I am just saying that you cannot compare time frames of our immigeation to other countries. Other countries do not receive anywhere close to the volume of petitions that we do.

[Steve Y Jessica 1]

I agree!

[rebeccajo 14]

Highway Star - Your comment about it being 'useful' for the Catholic Church to interject itself into constitutional matters is what elicited my response. I have a distinct aversion to these things.

If you were offended by my reply, I apologize for that. But I was equally offended by your post.

[nunyab 0]

I realllly wish a politician and someone higher up in USCIS could read this thread!!!!!

[Karaoke 0]

You are easy to get offended!

May I know why you would tak offence if someone said that in another country a church plays a part in civil society?

I don't think he suggested the Catholic Church should do anything in the US (or anywhere else), nor did he try to make you join any specific confession.

Highway Star - Your comment about it being 'useful' for the Catholic Church to interject itself into constitutional matters is what elicited my response. I have a distinct aversion to these things. A constitution is just "le lettre de loi"; "l'esprit de loi" can be civil society, and in some countries, local communities and congregations/churches are actively part of civil society.

If you were offended by my reply, I apologize for that. But I was equally offended by your post.

[rebeccajo 14]

Correct. Nor do they earmark as many tax dollars for their immigration processes or charge as much!!! In some countries, petitioners do not pay anything! And I doubt there is any other country with as many immigration officers!

It is all about EFFICIENCY, my friends, not about sheer numbers. How much INPUT? How much OUTPUT??

The USCIS system is simply antiquated and in constant crisis mode. You cannot work well in "crisis mode". They need to take STRUCTURAL changes and POLITICAL decisions.

I always laugh when I read: "the system is what it is" (therefore you cannot criticize the system or try to change it).

That is such a moot point. EVERYTHING is a choice, a political choice. It is a CHOICE that one type of visa is prioritized over others, it is a CHOICE that some countries process spousal visas in a MUCH faster ways (from a few hours to a few weeks in most European countries, most of them with automatic "K3-like" rights). It is a choice if you want to make people wait for years because you do not want to fix the system and you choose unaccountable bureaucrats to run it.

It is all about political decisions. And POLITICS is fallible and can be improved with good will and action.

However I do not see any point hoping too much in the electoral process, right now... WHO on Earth votes mainly based on their own dramatic experience with immigration? Few I am afraid. Immigration as we discuss it daily in these forums is hardly on the political agenda. Illegal immigration is on the agenda, building walls is, keeping people out is, lacking talented skills for IT companies is too...

Once you have immigrated, you probably forget the problem, you have reached your goals, and the people that come after you, well, you waited, they can wait too. You probably vote based on D or R, black or white, like the man or prefer the woman, helps your business, gives you better education/health care for your sons, lets you keep your guns, lower the price of your SUV gasoline etc..

This is the standard average human nature, care very little about the common problems and good, even less about politics per se, politics is politicians' work, not mine... We cannot deny this is how it normally works.. I am not saying everyone thinks this way, just the majority.

Whether one system of immigration checks or the other, is better, it's everyone's opinion.

To me it is a no-brainer that families (as defined by "married couples": you do not like my opinion: ok, but I think this way) should be reunified ASAP with RELATIVE priority over fiancees or other types of VISAs.

To me, it is a no brainer that some countries of origins are more proned to visa frauds, but everyone pays almost equally for that (and that's not right); to me it is a no brainer that some countries apply in much larger numbers but do not get any "expedite system", by which I mean more flexible DCF rules and more dedicated resources.

To me it is a no brainer that there is NO equity in the system other than the equity that the system's lawmakers (the legislators and politicians) want to give it.

All this goes down first of all to political choices that at the moment are beyond everyday's political life, and I doubt will ever come to the foreground.

I have been called a bigot because I said USCIS should "discriminate "(for lack of a better word) based on a series of parameters and benchmarks for RISK CONTROL and efficiency gains' purposes. HOWEVER, risk control and efficiency gains should be SECONDARY to political choices.

It seems to me it is clear that they right now the political choices that have been taken are detrimental to legal immigration. The US has made the political choice of making immigration hard and has made the political choice of associating risk control to a lengthy series of steps we all know. If this is right or wrong, you all can decide for yourselves.

If we want to change this (and for sure this will take decades)

a/we must lobby politicians sensitive to these political choices, if any is around

b/we must HUMBLY learn (very hard when the "right or wrong, my country" hybris rules...) from countries that have something to teach about immigration.

c/ by trial and error, the system must be structurally reformed from the inside and the external budget/funding must be increased to "catch-up", while driving a movement for better accountability of USCIS and the eventual goal of self-funding.

And I am just saying that you cannot compare time frames of our immigeation to other countries. Other countries do not receive anywhere close to the volume of petitions that we do.

charisma -

What you call 'risk control' can easily be interpreted as racial profiling, which is probably why some have called it bigotry. That aside, I presume you are aware there are several nations wherein this type of profiling is ALREADY applied? Are you saying there should be MORE?

I do agree with you there is much much more our government could do to reunify families. But this isn't some constitutionally protected right we are guaranteed. No government makes constitutional protections for foreign born individuals. The US government has said to us, its citizens, that we may petition for a foreign born spouse - and that's about the end of what we are 'guaranteed'. I don't believe that idealogy is any different anywhere else on the planet. While other countries may process a petition faster, that doesn't necessarily guarantee the request will be granted.

And as we have discussed before, as long as marriage fraud exists and as long as the US continues an open-arms policy to foreign born spouses, there will be checks and there will be delays. You'll save yourself a lot of heartburn if you'll stop with the rhetoric about married couples taking priority over fiancees. It just sounds like sour grapes and it makes no sense.

[rebeccajo 14]

My references are to a church (any church) playing a part in government, not civil society as you read it and wrote in your post.

I've seen what the 'religious right' has accomplished in my nation in the last 20 years or so. And I live with the human fallout of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. I'm simply diametrically opposed to people pushing their moral agenda into legislation. Especially when it is referred to as 'useful'.

You are easy to get offended!

May I know why you would tak offence if someone said that in another country a church plays a part in civil society?

I don't think he suggested the Catholic Church should do anything in the US (or anywhere else), nor did he try to make you join any specific confession.

Highway Star - Your comment about it being 'useful' for the Catholic Church to interject itself into constitutional matters is what elicited my response. I have a distinct aversion to these things. A constitution is just "le lettre de loi"; "l'esprit de loi" can be civil society, and in some countries, local communities and congregations/churches are actively part of civil society.

If you were offended by my reply, I apologize for that. But I was equally offended by your post.

[rebeccajo 14]

Every time I check USCIS web page it's like 'OMG there were so many millions of applications, we didn't see it coming at all" and "we are hiring additional employees.... bla bla".. Is there anyone at USCIS analyzing trends and trying to predict the number of applications (it should not be that hard)....and exactly how many of those 1500 new employees have they hired so far since summer 2007? Why don't they post those numbers?

Those of you that found yourself in my previous post, well it was you who thought that I was referring to your posts, its up to you if you find yourselves among the 'naysayers' I mentioned.

I don't think that the citizens of any EU country would ever put up with what we have to put up here in the US with USCIS, there would be an outrage. I mentioned EU just as an example of developed nations and how they handle immigration, the fact is that most countries in the world have better and more efficient USCIS type of agency. Shouldn't we strive to improve our agency too, or put up with it forever?

May God help us if the immigration bill ever goes thru and there is additional 10+ millions of currently illegals that would need to be processed. I bet USCS is going to be 'surprised' when this happens....and have some other ####### on their website explaining the new delays....we should consider ourselves lucky for waiting only 10 months or so.... Is that how we want the USCIS to operate??

Dr Nick -

I'm fairly certain that you are more interested in railing against anything I post because I'm 'done' with the 'visajourney' than you are with holding a civil conversation. Elsewise you wouldn't call me a naysayer. You aren't reading what I'm saying. You're just posting.

You are correct, however, in your assertion that 'God help us' if another immigration bill is passed. Because our government is not likely to pass such a bill without further restricting family processes. If you put your ear closely to the ground, you will hear the rumblings of US Citizens who would like nothing better than to further restrict or entirely eliminate the entry of all foreign-born persons to our nation.

When our government next addresses the issue of immigration, read closely and listen carefully. You may find that the pie you have right now is far better than the slice you will be offered in the future.

[HighwayStar 0]

You are easy to get offended!

May I know why you would tak offence if someone said that in another country a church plays a part in civil society?

I don't think he suggested the Catholic Church should do anything in the US (or anywhere else), nor did he try to make you join any specific confession.

Highway Star - Your comment about it being 'useful' for the Catholic Church to interject itself into constitutional matters is what elicited my response. I have a distinct aversion to these things. A constitution is just "le lettre de loi"; "l'esprit de loi" can be civil society, and in some countries, local communities and congregations/churches are actively part of civil society.

If you were offended by my reply, I apologize for that. But I was equally offended by your post.

OK, first of all I am not a he, I am a she. I don't want to get into a fight with RJ, because I know better than to waste my time with people who think they are always right. However, there is a simple thing I'd like to say to her... Since she has researched the subject of immigration so extensively, I wonder why she didn't respond to the thread I started in the General K1 section, whose title was "A question for the experts". I could've benefited of her expertise in the matter, instead of having to listen to uncalled-for lectures about the American constitution or the separation between Church and State.