Where is the outrage?

[Heracles 417]

True - but this area is hit by hurricanes almost every year. As Lal said - after a while you probably get numb to it, especially if you're used to waiting out the storms - as indeed many people do.

Unlike New Orleans of course. A city below sea level surrounded by levies.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Ok, I have to admit that I stopped reading because I was getting irritated so if some of this has been said already, ignore me.

We also tend to evacuate when we are told to evacuate in the midwest.

I agree with you to a certain extent here. Except that many many many of the people who "stayed behind" during Katrina did so because they had no way out of the city. Public transportation had stopped and so many of those people didn't have cars or ways to leave.

Also, and I'm not trying to just make excuses for my hometown people, but the fact is that we'd been expecting the "big storm" for about 10 years. Now, my family left when the evac order came in, but I can see why many old-timers didn't. Plus, the entire Gulf Coast was decimated in a way it hadn't been since Camille.

That being said, I would never claim that NOLA and Katrina was worse than the flooding now. And I totally agree that there seems to be more banding together in the Midwest than there was in the Gulf Coast.

I believe by "chocolate New Orleans" the guy was meaning that the city wouldn't lose its historical character (for which the city was known), which controversial as it may sound (and I really don't think it is) is connected to the ethnic mixture of the people who lived there.

People might be offended by the phraseology, but its not half as controversial as people want to make out.

It was racist and controversial. There's no other way to look at it. Even many African-Americans from the area found it to be such. Louisiana's rich heritage is Spanish, French, Caribbean, Haitian, Acadian...as well as African. That's not what Nagin was referring to. He could have drawn on the rich cultural heritage but he didn't.

Also, I'm not sure about the celebrities, but Harry Connick Jr is a NOLA boy through and through. He has ALWAYS been there for the city. He didn't go back to bring cameras and say "OMGZORZ LOOK AT ME AND WHAT I AM DOING!!!!11" He went back because his family is Louisiana and he has incredibly strong ties. As well, the Music Rising Project was born out of the belief in music therapy and attempting to protect the rich and very diverse musical heritage in Louisiana.

Finally, and I'll get off my soapbox soon, I think that we need to make this thread about the Midwest and the people in need there.

I'll agree with you there - but I do think the bald stereotypes on display about lazy, dependent Southerners shouldn't go by unchallenged

[tmma 467]

Ah yes, take responsibility for yourselves you lily livered (that's probably not pc) 'victims' of natural disasters. That earth quake really wasn't so bad, that tsunami was just a little wave, that hurricane was just a little storm. I blame those whingers from the third world. They never do anything for themselves, always have their caps in hand looking for a handout. Honestly we should just nuke anyone who doesn't sing yankee doodle dandee when they get hit by a freak of nature!

Alot of the tragic loss of life during Katrina was down to lack of personal responsibility on the part of non-evacuees, bad organization and disaster response mechanisms at a LOCAL government level and chaotic FEMA organization, response and structure.

There was at least a 4 day lead time on that hurricane. Not long, true, but a lot longer than the victims of tsunamis and earthquakes have. Here in a non-third world country with a strong communications infrastructure, advanced meteorological forecasting technology and at least some sort of disaster preparedness plans, the loss of life after Katrina was partly down to some people waiting for the Govt to just "do something"..........And we all know where that gets you in most nations.

Interestingly, tsunamis and quakes happen frequently in countries [ some 3rd world] that have no widespread communications system, no enforceable disaster preparedness plan-yet how many of their citizens blame their Govt for the loss of life after their disasters- or maybe it's just not publisized...I don't know.

All I do know is that the non-evacuees in New Orleans had lead-time, they were told this was an impending catastrophic event and they CHOSE to stay right in it's path.

I have to say having lived in Florida for 7 years - during 2004 and 2005 during this peak of hurricane activity was a weekly stressor. All we heard was direct hit this, direct hit that constantly - week after week. I packed up my house so many times, listened to the radio all nights, packed up my desk at work to be able to mobilize up to Boston to ensure no loss of revenue, - for nothing to happen (thankfully!) But after hearing this so much, and packing so many times, I became desensitized. Heck even if I wasnt, plywood was way out of stock, as were other items necessary to "prepare". After 2004 and well into the season of 2005 I am sure I was not alone in this.

I am not saying its right - but just saying hindsight is always 20x20. They *should* have gotten out of there (those that had the ability to do so). But I personally, understand why many stayed.

I understand what you are saying. I am sure part of the problem in NO was " de sensitization" to hurricanes also; but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"........which like I said before might as well expect the fairy Godmother to come along and make things right again.

ETA-Don't hate on me for this, but I am a meteorologist and before part of my area was LA ( NW), and I can honestly say that during hurricane season or any severe weather events we all work double shifts and do everything possible to make storm predication as accurate as possible; and disseminate the info as quickly as possible with the information and resources we have. I don't think the NHC/NWS/NOAA does a bad job here, although I can understand it being a PITA packing up and readying for a false alarm...... Just sayin'.

Edited July 10, 2008 by tmma

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

True - but this area is hit by hurricanes almost every year. As Lal said - after a while you probably get numb to it, especially if you're used to waiting out the storms - as indeed many people do.

Unlike New Orleans of course. A city below sea level surrounded by levies.

Um... what's your point and how does it relate to what I wrote?

I was talking about New Orleans...

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

American teenagers in the South are so spoiled, I bet the real reason all those NOLA people didn't leave is because their spoiled teenagers didn't want to leave their gangbanging and roughhousing behind! Or they couldn't run because their baggy pants were hung too low, they kept tripping!

/B.Y.

[Heracles 417]

I believe by "chocolate New Orleans" the guy was meaning that the city wouldn't lose its historical character (for which the city was known), which controversial as it may sound (and I really don't think it is) is connected to the ethnic mixture of the people who lived there.

People might be offended by the phraseology, but its not half as controversial as people want to make out.

[jundp 191]

Right now there is a hearing about whether or not FEMA knew the trailers they gave Katrina victims were contained with toxic levels of formaldehyde.

Oh okay. Because the houses these people lived in prior to Katrina must have been safe and all.

Omg. Seriously? Yeah.

My sister lived in a house that was built in 1999. It was on the coast in Bay St. Louis, MS. It was a lovely and well-built house. It was destroyed in Katrina. She was offered one of those FEMA trailers, but luckily, we have a huge family that is spread throughout the Gulf Coast and she was able to stay with another one of our sisters.

Another sister lived in NOLA, near Tulane. Now, her house (which was our grandmother's and has been around since the early 1800's and was in excellent condition) wasn't destroyed, but it did suffer mold and infestation during the time in which she was away. She and her husband and kids went to NH to stay with his relatives, but they could have stayed in a FEMA trailer if they'd needed to.

Friends of mine in Gretna had lived in their house for 25+ years and did indeed have to make use of a FEMA trailer until they could sort out insurance, because they didn't want to be a burden on their grown children. There house was completely destroyed.

Are you saying that the houses these people lived in previously were #######? Or are you saying that because of the damaging effects of the storm they were rendered unsafe? I'm confused by your comment.

Because I guarantee there were no toxic levels of chemicals in the three aforementioned homes before the storm.

And again: many people HAD NO WAY TO LEAVE

[LaL 418]

Alot of the tragic loss of life during Katrina was down to lack of personal responsibility on the part of non-evacuees, bad organization and disaster response mechanisms at a LOCAL government level and chaotic FEMA organization, response and structure.

There was at least a 4 day lead time on that hurricane. Not long, true, but a lot longer than the victims of tsunamis and earthquakes have. Here in a non-third world country with a strong communications infrastructure, advanced meteorological forecasting technology and at least some sort of disaster preparedness plans, the loss of life after Katrina was partly down to some people waiting for the Govt to just "do something"..........And we all know where that gets you in most nations.

Interestingly, tsunamis and quakes happen frequently in countries [ some 3rd world] that have no widespread communications system, no enforceable disaster preparedness plan-yet how many of their citizens blame their Govt for the loss of life after their disasters- or maybe it's just not publisized...I don't know.

All I do know is that the non-evacuees in New Orleans had lead-time, they were told this was an impending catastrophic event and they CHOSE to stay right in it's path.

I have to say having lived in Florida for 7 years - during 2004 and 2005 during this peak of hurricane activity was a weekly stressor. All we heard was direct hit this, direct hit that constantly - week after week. I packed up my house so many times, listened to the radio all nights, packed up my desk at work to be able to mobilize up to Boston to ensure no loss of revenue, - for nothing to happen (thankfully!) But after hearing this so much, and packing so many times, I became desensitized. Heck even if I wasnt, plywood was way out of stock, as were other items necessary to "prepare". After 2004 and well into the season of 2005 I am sure I was not alone in this.

I am not saying its right - but just saying hindsight is always 20x20. They *should* have gotten out of there (those that had the ability to do so). But I personally, understand why many stayed.

I understand what you are saying. I am sure part of the problem in NO was " de sensitization" to hurricanes also; but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"........which like I said before might as well expect the fairy Godmother to come along and make things right again.

If I still lived down there, and my city and home were destroyed you bet I would be asking the government to step in to help regardless if I left or not! But somehow I don't have the right to aid if I didn't leave? You have to remember this disaster came off the back of the tsunami and the amount of aid that went there (for the record I am a proud donator to that cause and proud of the reliefe my country provided in such a devestating time) one would think their own government could lend a helping hand instead of what was actually done. FEMA was a joke.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I believe by "chocolate New Orleans" the guy was meaning that the city wouldn't lose its historical character (for which the city was known), which controversial as it may sound (and I really don't think it is) is connected to the ethnic mixture of the people who lived there.

People might be offended by the phraseology, but its not half as controversial as people want to make out.

Glad to see you have something to add as usual.

No need to ask where your outrage is. You're hoarding.... Its not healthy you know...

Alot of the tragic loss of life during Katrina was down to lack of personal responsibility on the part of non-evacuees, bad organization and disaster response mechanisms at a LOCAL government level and chaotic FEMA organization, response and structure.

There was at least a 4 day lead time on that hurricane. Not long, true, but a lot longer than the victims of tsunamis and earthquakes have. Here in a non-third world country with a strong communications infrastructure, advanced meteorological forecasting technology and at least some sort of disaster preparedness plans, the loss of life after Katrina was partly down to some people waiting for the Govt to just "do something"..........And we all know where that gets you in most nations.

Interestingly, tsunamis and quakes happen frequently in countries [ some 3rd world] that have no widespread communications system, no enforceable disaster preparedness plan-yet how many of their citizens blame their Govt for the loss of life after their disasters- or maybe it's just not publisized...I don't know.

All I do know is that the non-evacuees in New Orleans had lead-time, they were told this was an impending catastrophic event and they CHOSE to stay right in it's path.

I have to say having lived in Florida for 7 years - during 2004 and 2005 during this peak of hurricane activity was a weekly stressor. All we heard was direct hit this, direct hit that constantly - week after week. I packed up my house so many times, listened to the radio all nights, packed up my desk at work to be able to mobilize up to Boston to ensure no loss of revenue, - for nothing to happen (thankfully!) But after hearing this so much, and packing so many times, I became desensitized. Heck even if I wasnt, plywood was way out of stock, as were other items necessary to "prepare". After 2004 and well into the season of 2005 I am sure I was not alone in this.

I am not saying its right - but just saying hindsight is always 20x20. They *should* have gotten out of there (those that had the ability to do so). But I personally, understand why many stayed.

I understand what you are saying. I am sure part of the problem in NO was " de sensitization" to hurricanes also; but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"........which like I said before might as well expect the fairy Godmother to come along and make things right again.

If I still lived down there, and my city and home were destroyed you bet I would be asking the government to step in to help regardless if I left or not! But somehow I don't have the right to aid if I didn't leave? You have to remember this disaster came off the back of the tsunami and the amount of aid that went there (for the record I am a proud donator to that cause and proud of the reliefe my country provided in such a devestating time) one would think their own government could lend a helping hand instead of what was actually done. FEMA was a joke.

Especially given the scale of the disaster - this sort of thing is exactly what the government should be expected to help with.

[jundp 191]

True - but this area is hit by hurricanes almost every year. As Lal said - after a while you probably get numb to it, especially if you're used to waiting out the storms - as indeed many people do.

Unlike New Orleans of course. A city below sea level surrounded by levies.

NOLA, at its lowest point, is 8 feet below sea level.

Long Beach, CA, at its lowest point is 7 feet below sea level.

There are 17 major cities in the US that are at sea level at their lowest points....

Not sure what your point is here.

[LaL 418]

ETA-Don't hate on me for this, but I am a meteorologist and before part of my area was LA ( NW), and I can honestly say that during hurricane season or any severe weather events we all work double shifts and do everything possible to make storm predication as accurate as possible; and disseminate the info as quickly as possible with the information and resources we have. I don't think the NHC/NWS/NOAA does a bad job here, although I can understand it being a PITA packing up and readying for a false alarm...... Just sayin'.

I completely understand the working conditions of the meterologists. I also understand that prior to those years when MANY of the pathways were completely WRONG that meteorologists also loosened up their predictions. Honestly - I think 1/2 of the problem here is the overblown reporting of situations like this. Case in point - the original post.

Edited July 10, 2008 by LaL

[tmma 467]

Alot of the tragic loss of life during Katrina was down to lack of personal responsibility on the part of non-evacuees, bad organization and disaster response mechanisms at a LOCAL government level and chaotic FEMA organization, response and structure.

There was at least a 4 day lead time on that hurricane. Not long, true, but a lot longer than the victims of tsunamis and earthquakes have. Here in a non-third world country with a strong communications infrastructure, advanced meteorological forecasting technology and at least some sort of disaster preparedness plans, the loss of life after Katrina was partly down to some people waiting for the Govt to just "do something"..........And we all know where that gets you in most nations.

Interestingly, tsunamis and quakes happen frequently in countries [ some 3rd world] that have no widespread communications system, no enforceable disaster preparedness plan-yet how many of their citizens blame their Govt for the loss of life after their disasters- or maybe it's just not publisized...I don't know.

All I do know is that the non-evacuees in New Orleans had lead-time, they were told this was an impending catastrophic event and they CHOSE to stay right in it's path.

I have to say having lived in Florida for 7 years - during 2004 and 2005 during this peak of hurricane activity was a weekly stressor. All we heard was direct hit this, direct hit that constantly - week after week. I packed up my house so many times, listened to the radio all nights, packed up my desk at work to be able to mobilize up to Boston to ensure no loss of revenue, - for nothing to happen (thankfully!) But after hearing this so much, and packing so many times, I became desensitized. Heck even if I wasnt, plywood was way out of stock, as were other items necessary to "prepare". After 2004 and well into the season of 2005 I am sure I was not alone in this.

I am not saying its right - but just saying hindsight is always 20x20. They *should* have gotten out of there (those that had the ability to do so). But I personally, understand why many stayed.

I understand what you are saying. I am sure part of the problem in NO was " de sensitization" to hurricanes also; but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"........which like I said before might as well expect the fairy Godmother to come along and make things right again.

If I still lived down there, and my city and home were destroyed you bet I would be asking the government to step in to help regardless if I left or not! But somehow I don't have the right to aid if I didn't leave? You have to remember this disaster came off the back of the tsunami and the amount of aid that went there (for the record I am a proud donator to that cause and proud of the reliefe my country provided in such a devestating time) one would think their own government could lend a helping hand instead of what was actually done. FEMA was a joke.

I never said that the residents of New Orleans did not have the right to Govt aid regardless of wether they left or not. What I am saying is that in the case of loss of life, there HAS to be a modicum of personal responsibility...or no?

FWIW I too am a proud to say I donated to the families of those affected by Katrina in LA, MS and AL. I still do, I also donate to causes worldwide ranging from supporting injured/maimed child landmine victims in Bosnia to sponsoring a poverty stricken MS child here. Although what all that has to do with my original point I have no idea-but seeing as you mentioned it.........

[LaL 418]

Alot of the tragic loss of life during Katrina was down to lack of personal responsibility on the part of non-evacuees, bad organization and disaster response mechanisms at a LOCAL government level and chaotic FEMA organization, response and structure.

There was at least a 4 day lead time on that hurricane. Not long, true, but a lot longer than the victims of tsunamis and earthquakes have. Here in a non-third world country with a strong communications infrastructure, advanced meteorological forecasting technology and at least some sort of disaster preparedness plans, the loss of life after Katrina was partly down to some people waiting for the Govt to just "do something"..........And we all know where that gets you in most nations.

Interestingly, tsunamis and quakes happen frequently in countries [ some 3rd world] that have no widespread communications system, no enforceable disaster preparedness plan-yet how many of their citizens blame their Govt for the loss of life after their disasters- or maybe it's just not publisized...I don't know.

All I do know is that the non-evacuees in New Orleans had lead-time, they were told this was an impending catastrophic event and they CHOSE to stay right in it's path.

I have to say having lived in Florida for 7 years - during 2004 and 2005 during this peak of hurricane activity was a weekly stressor. All we heard was direct hit this, direct hit that constantly - week after week. I packed up my house so many times, listened to the radio all nights, packed up my desk at work to be able to mobilize up to Boston to ensure no loss of revenue, - for nothing to happen (thankfully!) But after hearing this so much, and packing so many times, I became desensitized. Heck even if I wasnt, plywood was way out of stock, as were other items necessary to "prepare". After 2004 and well into the season of 2005 I am sure I was not alone in this.

I am not saying its right - but just saying hindsight is always 20x20. They *should* have gotten out of there (those that had the ability to do so). But I personally, understand why many stayed.

I understand what you are saying. I am sure part of the problem in NO was " de sensitization" to hurricanes also; but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"........which like I said before might as well expect the fairy Godmother to come along and make things right again.

If I still lived down there, and my city and home were destroyed you bet I would be asking the government to step in to help regardless if I left or not! But somehow I don't have the right to aid if I didn't leave? You have to remember this disaster came off the back of the tsunami and the amount of aid that went there (for the record I am a proud donator to that cause and proud of the reliefe my country provided in such a devestating time) one would think their own government could lend a helping hand instead of what was actually done. FEMA was a joke.

I never said that the residents of New Orleans did not have the right to Govt aid regardless of wether they left or not. What I am saying is that in the case of loss of life, there HAS to be a modicum of personal responsibility...or no?

FWIW I too am a proud to say I donated to the families of those affected by Katrina in LA, MS and AL. I still do, I also donate to causes worldwide ranging from supporting injured/maimed child landmine victims in Bosnia to sponsoring a poverty stricken MS child here. Although what all that has to do with my original point I have no idea-but seeing as you mentioned it.........

I guess I fail to see what is so difficult to follow.

You said :

...but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"

and I said:

money and aid was sent to tsumani efforts (which I clarified was a wonderful cause) why should people not expect the govt to "do something" for their own city? You put the 2 together - stay + expect aid = something questionable to you.

For clarity - I added my disclosure as to make sure its understood that I supported the tsunami effort completely - not that I was saying "oh we can send money there, but not help our own" - not what I was saying at all.

[tmma 467]

ETA-Don't hate on me for this, but I am a meteorologist and before part of my area was LA ( NW), and I can honestly say that during hurricane season or any severe weather events we all work double shifts and do everything possible to make storm predication as accurate as possible; and disseminate the info as quickly as possible with the information and resources we have. I don't think the NHC/NWS/NOAA does a bad job here, although I can understand it being a PITA packing up and readying for a false alarm...... Just sayin'.

I completely understand the working conditions of the meterologists. I also understand that prior to those years when MANY of the pathways were completely WRONG that meteorologists also loosened up their predictions. Honestly - I think 1/2 of the problem here is the overblown reporting of situations like this. Case in point - the original post.

Well, I know what you are saying-the main goal of the NHC/NOAA and the NWS is to preserve life and property in the event of severe or catastrophic met events. It may seem like they are jumpy and quick on the draw with the watch and warning issuance, and honestly sometimes I agree, it's sometimes a judgement call depending on the team on shift.......In the case of Katrina, I am not sure how much more emphatic the met folks could be in describing the magnitude and seriousness of this hurricane. It's JMO and like weather forecasting...is subjective and vunerable to interpretation.

Oh, and yes...FEMA was a chaotic mess at that time. No disagreement there.

[tmma 467]

Alot of the tragic loss of life during Katrina was down to lack of personal responsibility on the part of non-evacuees, bad organization and disaster response mechanisms at a LOCAL government level and chaotic FEMA organization, response and structure.

There was at least a 4 day lead time on that hurricane. Not long, true, but a lot longer than the victims of tsunamis and earthquakes have. Here in a non-third world country with a strong communications infrastructure, advanced meteorological forecasting technology and at least some sort of disaster preparedness plans, the loss of life after Katrina was partly down to some people waiting for the Govt to just "do something"..........And we all know where that gets you in most nations.

Interestingly, tsunamis and quakes happen frequently in countries [ some 3rd world] that have no widespread communications system, no enforceable disaster preparedness plan-yet how many of their citizens blame their Govt for the loss of life after their disasters- or maybe it's just not publisized...I don't know.

All I do know is that the non-evacuees in New Orleans had lead-time, they were told this was an impending catastrophic event and they CHOSE to stay right in it's path.

I have to say having lived in Florida for 7 years - during 2004 and 2005 during this peak of hurricane activity was a weekly stressor. All we heard was direct hit this, direct hit that constantly - week after week. I packed up my house so many times, listened to the radio all nights, packed up my desk at work to be able to mobilize up to Boston to ensure no loss of revenue, - for nothing to happen (thankfully!) But after hearing this so much, and packing so many times, I became desensitized. Heck even if I wasnt, plywood was way out of stock, as were other items necessary to "prepare". After 2004 and well into the season of 2005 I am sure I was not alone in this.

I am not saying its right - but just saying hindsight is always 20x20. They *should* have gotten out of there (those that had the ability to do so). But I personally, understand why many stayed.

I understand what you are saying. I am sure part of the problem in NO was " de sensitization" to hurricanes also; but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"........which like I said before might as well expect the fairy Godmother to come along and make things right again.

If I still lived down there, and my city and home were destroyed you bet I would be asking the government to step in to help regardless if I left or not! But somehow I don't have the right to aid if I didn't leave? You have to remember this disaster came off the back of the tsunami and the amount of aid that went there (for the record I am a proud donator to that cause and proud of the reliefe my country provided in such a devestating time) one would think their own government could lend a helping hand instead of what was actually done. FEMA was a joke.

I never said that the residents of New Orleans did not have the right to Govt aid regardless of wether they left or not. What I am saying is that in the case of loss of life, there HAS to be a modicum of personal responsibility...or no?

FWIW I too am a proud to say I donated to the families of those affected by Katrina in LA, MS and AL. I still do, I also donate to causes worldwide ranging from supporting injured/maimed child landmine victims in Bosnia to sponsoring a poverty stricken MS child here. Although what all that has to do with my original point I have no idea-but seeing as you mentioned it.........

I guess I fail to see what is so difficult to follow.

You said :

...but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"

and I said:

money and aid was sent to tsumani efforts (which I clarified was a wonderful cause) why should people not expect the govt to "do something" for their own city? You put the 2 together - stay + expect aid = something questionable to you.

For clarity - I added my disclosure as to make sure its understood that I supported the tsunami effort completely - not that I was saying "oh we can send money there, but not help our own" - not what I was saying at all.

What I meant by " do something" was not $$$$$$$$...I was meaning " do something" like come and risk more lives saving me from falling off my roof coz I didn't evacuate. NOT $$$$$$$$$$$..