Where is the outrage?

[Heracles 417]

My sister lived in a house that was built in 1999. It was on the coast in Bay St. Louis, MS. It was a lovely and well-built house. It was destroyed in Katrina. She was offered one of those FEMA trailers, but luckily, we have a huge family that is spread throughout the Gulf Coast and she was able to stay with another one of our sisters.

Another sister lived in NOLA, near Tulane. Now, her house (which was our grandmother's and has been around since the early 1800's and was in excellent condition) wasn't destroyed, but it did suffer mold and infestation during the time in which she was away. She and her husband and kids went to NH to stay with his relatives, but they could have stayed in a FEMA trailer if they'd needed to.

Friends of mine in Gretna had lived in their house for 25+ years and did indeed have to make use of a FEMA trailer until they could sort out insurance, because they didn't want to be a burden on their grown children. There house was completely destroyed.

Are you saying that the houses these people lived in previously were #######? Or are you saying that because of the damaging effects of the storm they were rendered unsafe? I'm confused by your comment.

Because I guarantee there were no toxic levels of chemicals in the three aforementioned homes before the storm.

And again: many people HAD NO WAY TO LEAVE

This is what the appropriate insurance policy is for. If you live near the ocean you will have to pay more. If you live in a city surrounded by levees you will pay even more. Otherwise people need to consider moving.

This seems to be common sense abroad. Whereas the prevalent attitude in America is that nobody can tell me what to do. Yet ironically when something like this happens certain communities demand the government pay for their choices.

Was your sister's house built high enough to withstand the scenario of a levee breaking?

Edited July 10, 2008 by Boo-Yah!

[LaL 418]

Alot of the tragic loss of life during Katrina was down to lack of personal responsibility on the part of non-evacuees, bad organization and disaster response mechanisms at a LOCAL government level and chaotic FEMA organization, response and structure.

There was at least a 4 day lead time on that hurricane. Not long, true, but a lot longer than the victims of tsunamis and earthquakes have. Here in a non-third world country with a strong communications infrastructure, advanced meteorological forecasting technology and at least some sort of disaster preparedness plans, the loss of life after Katrina was partly down to some people waiting for the Govt to just "do something"..........And we all know where that gets you in most nations.

Interestingly, tsunamis and quakes happen frequently in countries [ some 3rd world] that have no widespread communications system, no enforceable disaster preparedness plan-yet how many of their citizens blame their Govt for the loss of life after their disasters- or maybe it's just not publisized...I don't know.

All I do know is that the non-evacuees in New Orleans had lead-time, they were told this was an impending catastrophic event and they CHOSE to stay right in it's path.

I have to say having lived in Florida for 7 years - during 2004 and 2005 during this peak of hurricane activity was a weekly stressor. All we heard was direct hit this, direct hit that constantly - week after week. I packed up my house so many times, listened to the radio all nights, packed up my desk at work to be able to mobilize up to Boston to ensure no loss of revenue, - for nothing to happen (thankfully!) But after hearing this so much, and packing so many times, I became desensitized. Heck even if I wasnt, plywood was way out of stock, as were other items necessary to "prepare". After 2004 and well into the season of 2005 I am sure I was not alone in this.

I am not saying its right - but just saying hindsight is always 20x20. They *should* have gotten out of there (those that had the ability to do so). But I personally, understand why many stayed.

I understand what you are saying. I am sure part of the problem in NO was " de sensitization" to hurricanes also; but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"........which like I said before might as well expect the fairy Godmother to come along and make things right again.

If I still lived down there, and my city and home were destroyed you bet I would be asking the government to step in to help regardless if I left or not! But somehow I don't have the right to aid if I didn't leave? You have to remember this disaster came off the back of the tsunami and the amount of aid that went there (for the record I am a proud donator to that cause and proud of the reliefe my country provided in such a devestating time) one would think their own government could lend a helping hand instead of what was actually done. FEMA was a joke.

I never said that the residents of New Orleans did not have the right to Govt aid regardless of wether they left or not. What I am saying is that in the case of loss of life, there HAS to be a modicum of personal responsibility...or no?

FWIW I too am a proud to say I donated to the families of those affected by Katrina in LA, MS and AL. I still do, I also donate to causes worldwide ranging from supporting injured/maimed child landmine victims in Bosnia to sponsoring a poverty stricken MS child here. Although what all that has to do with my original point I have no idea-but seeing as you mentioned it.........

I guess I fail to see what is so difficult to follow.

You said :

...but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"

and I said:

money and aid was sent to tsumani efforts (which I clarified was a wonderful cause) why should people not expect the govt to "do something" for their own city? You put the 2 together - stay + expect aid = something questionable to you.

For clarity - I added my disclosure as to make sure its understood that I supported the tsunami effort completely - not that I was saying "oh we can send money there, but not help our own" - not what I was saying at all.

What I meant by " do something" was not $$$$...I was meaning " do something" like come and risk more lives saving me from falling off my roof coz I didn't evacuate. NOT $$$$$$..

I am going to have to agree to disagree here. Just because they did not evacuate - does not mean they should be left to die. Peace!

[tmma 467]

Alot of the tragic loss of life during Katrina was down to lack of personal responsibility on the part of non-evacuees, bad organization and disaster response mechanisms at a LOCAL government level and chaotic FEMA organization, response and structure.

There was at least a 4 day lead time on that hurricane. Not long, true, but a lot longer than the victims of tsunamis and earthquakes have. Here in a non-third world country with a strong communications infrastructure, advanced meteorological forecasting technology and at least some sort of disaster preparedness plans, the loss of life after Katrina was partly down to some people waiting for the Govt to just "do something"..........And we all know where that gets you in most nations.

Interestingly, tsunamis and quakes happen frequently in countries [ some 3rd world] that have no widespread communications system, no enforceable disaster preparedness plan-yet how many of their citizens blame their Govt for the loss of life after their disasters- or maybe it's just not publisized...I don't know.

All I do know is that the non-evacuees in New Orleans had lead-time, they were told this was an impending catastrophic event and they CHOSE to stay right in it's path.

I have to say having lived in Florida for 7 years - during 2004 and 2005 during this peak of hurricane activity was a weekly stressor. All we heard was direct hit this, direct hit that constantly - week after week. I packed up my house so many times, listened to the radio all nights, packed up my desk at work to be able to mobilize up to Boston to ensure no loss of revenue, - for nothing to happen (thankfully!) But after hearing this so much, and packing so many times, I became desensitized. Heck even if I wasnt, plywood was way out of stock, as were other items necessary to "prepare". After 2004 and well into the season of 2005 I am sure I was not alone in this.

I am not saying its right - but just saying hindsight is always 20x20. They *should* have gotten out of there (those that had the ability to do so). But I personally, understand why many stayed.

I understand what you are saying. I am sure part of the problem in NO was " de sensitization" to hurricanes also; but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"........which like I said before might as well expect the fairy Godmother to come along and make things right again.

If I still lived down there, and my city and home were destroyed you bet I would be asking the government to step in to help regardless if I left or not! But somehow I don't have the right to aid if I didn't leave? You have to remember this disaster came off the back of the tsunami and the amount of aid that went there (for the record I am a proud donator to that cause and proud of the reliefe my country provided in such a devestating time) one would think their own government could lend a helping hand instead of what was actually done. FEMA was a joke.

I never said that the residents of New Orleans did not have the right to Govt aid regardless of wether they left or not. What I am saying is that in the case of loss of life, there HAS to be a modicum of personal responsibility...or no?

FWIW I too am a proud to say I donated to the families of those affected by Katrina in LA, MS and AL. I still do, I also donate to causes worldwide ranging from supporting injured/maimed child landmine victims in Bosnia to sponsoring a poverty stricken MS child here. Although what all that has to do with my original point I have no idea-but seeing as you mentioned it.........

I guess I fail to see what is so difficult to follow.

You said :

...but still does not change the fact that they CHOSE to stay then expected the Govt to " do something"

and I said:

money and aid was sent to tsumani efforts (which I clarified was a wonderful cause) why should people not expect the govt to "do something" for their own city? You put the 2 together - stay + expect aid = something questionable to you.

For clarity - I added my disclosure as to make sure its understood that I supported the tsunami effort completely - not that I was saying "oh we can send money there, but not help our own" - not what I was saying at all.

What I meant by " do something" was not $$$$...I was meaning " do something" like come and risk more lives saving me from falling off my roof coz I didn't evacuate. NOT $$$$$$..

I am going to have to agree to disagree here. Just because they did not evacuate - does not mean they should be left to die. Peace!

I'm not thinking we disagree that much...honestly. I do not think they should be left to die, but are people not somewhat responsible for their own physical protection too? That's all I am saying....Thanks and peace to you too.

[Heracles 417]

I am going to have to agree to disagree here. Just because they did not evacuate - does not mean they should be left to die. Peace!

Right. But then people don't need to go around making up conspiracies and using the race card against the government.

Edit: These people were asked to leave. Many chose to stay. Therefore their fate was solely in their hands. You cannot have your cake and eat it when it comes to freedom and choice.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Boo-Yah!

[*julez* 124]

[jundp 191]

This is what the appropriate insurance policy is for. If you live near the ocean you will have to pay more. If you live in a city surrounded by levees you will pay even more. Otherwise people need to consider moving.

This seems to be common sense abroad. Whereas the prevalent attitude in America is that nobody can tell me what to do. Yet ironically when something like this happens certain communities demand the government pay for their choices.

Was your sister's house built high enough to withstand the scenario of a levee breaking?

My sister in BSL had her house built 8 feet (6 feet?) off the ground. Whatever the legal limit is in that area. It didn't matter because the waves and the winds are what did the damage, not flooding there.

The sis in NOLA, her house is uptown, not near the river, so no it's not higher than 4 feet. But the damage that she had to her house was from wind and rain, again, not flooding.

My point is that many people did have appropriate insurance and did take certain precautions. Their houses were not equivalent to toxic FEMA trailers.

And there's no race card being pulled here.

The truth is that much of the devastation at the Convention Center and the Superdome happened to blacks in the city who didn't have a way to get out.

That's not pulling a race card...that's stating the facts.

[Peikko 1,575]

Yes, but of course that they were there was because they didn't take responsibility and get themselves a better job or move to somewhere else to have more opportunities - in other words, they only have themselves to blame and the government has no responsibility to help them out when they get themselves into trouble.

and if they were white, no one would care about them being poor.

[tmma 467]

Yes, but of course that they were there was because they didn't take responsibility and get themselves a better job or move to somewhere else to have more opportunities - in other words, they only have themselves to blame and the government has no responsibility to help them out when they get themselves into trouble.

and if they were white, no one would care about them being poor.

Where the heck did you get this from what's been written here? Are you disagreeing when I said that each of us at least bear some responsibility for our own physical protection?

Also, what does the part I bolded mean, exactly? I am failing to see where anyone said that...or is that what you are saying?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yes, but of course that they were there was because they didn't take responsibility and get themselves a better job or move to somewhere else to have more opportunities - in other words, they only have themselves to blame and the government has no responsibility to help them out when they get themselves into trouble.

and if they were white, no one would care about them being poor.

Where the heck did you get this from what's been written here? Are you disagreeing when I said that each of us at least bear some responsibility for our own physical protection?

Also, what does the part I bolded mean, exactly? I am failing to see where anyone said that...or is that what you are saying?

It was a sarcastic comment.

[jundp 191]

I think that it's really easy to judge when you don't walk a mile in someone else's shoes....

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think that it's really easy to judge when you don't walk a mile in someone else's shoes....

I would have to agree.

[tmma 467]

I think that it's really easy to judge when you don't walk a mile in someone else's shoes....

I would have to agree.

Well, I [for one] am not "judging" anyone-just stating my opinion. I don't care if you are poor, rich, white, green, black, pink, purple, or yellow.......The people who could have evacuated and didn't bear at the very least some responsibility for their own protection- and responsibility for the countless lives risked rescuing them.

And I am not disagreeing with anyone as far as Govt financially helping ALL victims of disaster, regardless of colour, status or anything.

edit-I said green twice.

Edited July 10, 2008 by tmma

[Peikko 1,575]

No, we know you are not, but the strange posts are not directed at you so try not to get upset by them, please?

[tmma 467]

No, we know you are not, but the strange posts are not directed at you so try not to get upset by them, please?

Not upset at all-but thanks for the kind consideration.

[jundp 191]

I think that it's really easy to judge when you don't walk a mile in someone else's shoes....

I would have to agree.

Well, I [for one] am not "judging" anyone-just stating my opinion. I don't care if you are poor, rich, white, green, black, pink, purple, or yellow.......The people who could have evacuated and didn't bear at the very least some responsibility for their own protection- and responsibility for the countless lives risked rescuing them.

And I am not disagreeing with anyone as far as Govt financially helping ALL victims of disaster, regardless of colour, status or anything.

edit-I said green twice.

I'm just speaking in generalities, not directing my statement at you or anyone in particular actually.

I agree that there is a degree of personal responsibility. I also lived the majority of my life in the city and its surrounding area and I know firsthand the depth of poverty and hopelessness that people feel. I also know that not everyone had a chance to leave the city. And some who did had the responsibility for others and abandoned that responsibility and thus even more innocent people died.

It was a catastrophe and it was a combination of elements that led to it.

No, we know you are not, but the strange posts are not directed at you so try not to get upset by them, please?

Are my posts considered strange?