"How Canada Stole the American Dream"

[thetreble 19]

Are they like, "what in gods name is this person coming into our backyard for?" haha

[Flames9_RN 358]

if your bringing beer over, who cares who you are,lol

[CBR 0]

Canada's relationship with the US has often been described as living in the shadow of the elephant. When the elephant turns over - you notice - and you react if you don't want to get squished. The Canadians will understand this from the inside out

Unfortunately, the Americans just read it that we're calling them a fat elephant.

But when you start making comparisons people are gonna feel offended and I'm sorry to single you out Reba (cuz I know you're a sweetheart) but your post was a comparison on our differences and it was definitely intent on putting the US down and Canada up

No, I'm not a sweetheart, anyone who knows me personally will tell you I'm a cruel heartless ######. Including my darling husband, and my own mother. Why, because I have a rather direct way of speaking. I don't beat around the bush, use euphemisms, or politically correct language. Its #######, its a waste of time and really serves no purpose other than to coddle. I share this trait with the late great George Carlin. Who I am sure is screaming up at us at this very moment.

If you took offence to my earlier post, well I can assure you that was not my intent. I really was merely making comparisons between the countries to explain our differences, nothing more. If you found offence in that, well, maybe you should take another look.

The point is, the way that our 2 countries were founded have deeply affected the later generations. Those first settlers to each country each had different outlooks on life, and different purposes and reasons for coming to the new world. The attitudes of those first people have continued with later generations, and with the "founding fathers" of both countries. Those early settlers may have all come from the same European countries, but the people themselves were different. They had different agendas, they had different experiences, and they formed our countries independently of each other. So even if at the base of things, our gentic make-up may be exactly the same, we are fundamentally different.

If being different is offensive, well, I can't help that. If over-simplification is offensive, well, blame Reader's Digest.

And if you want to see some Canada bashing for a change, just check out any of Gary's threads over in Off-Topic. He's always finding all sorts of factually wrong articles with sweeping generalisations about Canada.

I didn't find your post offensive and I never said that word. I found it incorrect.. Paying with beer is not unique to Canada and the US is not unaware of this concept. That is a generalizaiton using the location you moved to in the US to generalize that the entire US must be the same. It's done here in WI and MI and IL (family & friends in those states do it too) You talked about Canada gaining independence with a beer at a party which I understand you were simplifying, but it was a ridiculous thing to say when Canada gained true independence in 1982 and the US did in 1776. Very different times, different things being done to the colonists back then, and a very unfair comparison. And I know your intent was to point out huge differences in the two countries to emphasize your point that the US is a war mongering country.

I apologize for saying you were sweet. The nice words you left me when I was waiting for our noa2 led me to believe that. I just don't agree with the philosophy of being blunt...I call it rude. You don't care about hurting people's feelings? And I don't mean mine, because mine aren't. I wish you'd rethink that. I know a few people like that and they're not pleasant to be around. Coddling is one thing, but using tact and keeping your negative opinions to yourself is another. if you know your opinion is going to offend someone maybe you should think twice before saying it. And I'm not referring to VJ, I mean in real life. Obviously this is a message board and the point is you can say whatever you want if you don't care what people think about you.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

That beer thing is so true - I am not even a beer drinker but whenever I had moving parties or whatever I'd buy several cases, call my friends, we would get the job done and everyone would sit down and have a beer to celebrate completing the task:-) . . . and then another, and another . . . . !

Reba, I agree with you whole-heartedly. Canada and the US are founded from two entirely different 'attitudes' and these have indeed profoundly influenced how each country has developed.

Perhaps one of the more significant - and illustrative - events in the settlement of Canada was the coming of the United Empire Loyalists (UEL). Notwithstanding the UEL 'myth', these were individuals who, for one reason or another, did not wish to become involved in the disputes of the American Revolution. Some of them were indeed 'loyal' to the British crown; many more of them were basically 'not interested' in the conflict and just wished to continue on with their daily lives without getting politically involved, but they were literally forced to flee for their lives when their property was confiscated by US supporters who declared 'If you are not for us, you're against us'. There was no room for neutrality. (That attitude has influenced much of the US' more recent development, as well.) Other UELs were opportunists - individuals, who after the war or in its final days, saw the opportunity to own their own land given as settlement grants for the UEL immigrants to Canada - something they, as tenant farmers in the US, could not expect within their foreseeable future. So, they came north. Until the arrival of the UEL the general British/Canadian intent was to keep Upper Canada (Ontario) and the areas west free of habitation to support the lucrative fur trade. After the UELs literally overflooded the Maritime provinces and Eastern Canada, lands were made available first along the north shores of Lake Ontario and then later along Lake Erie and the various rivers that flowed into these lakes for UEL settlement. Retiring soldiers were also given their settlement lots by the British government as rewards for service. The majority of the UEL were not rampant royalists loyal to the British crown; they were just people who wanted an opportunity to live their lives and do their work unfettered by strife and politics, and because they wanted to stay politically neutral, were considered traitors by the Revolutionaries.

'Canadian' identity received a further boost during the War of 1812, where the US attitude was that Canadians were all secretly fretting under the horrible weight of British domination and just waiting for the Americans to come and rescue them. General Hull's proclamation is a good document to read sometime - and many will hear its echos in the declarations the US made when going in to 'save' Iraq. http://www.hillsdalesites.org/personal/hst...mation-Hull.htm . The US was dumbfounded when not only did the Canadians NOT welcome them with open arms, they actually took up arms to resist them and to defend their country. Brothers fought against brothers in this war as well, and it was uniting in a joint effort against the assault of a common enemy that finally solidified the sense of 'being Canadian'. If the US had not chosen to invade Canada at that time there is a good chance that the common ancestry may have allowed for assimilation of the Canadian provinces into the American states. Trying to take by force what could have been available through patient waiting is what finally separated Canadians from Americans permanently. Canadians wait patiently but are not cowards. When it is necessary - and the Canadian and Americans definition of 'necessity' varies greatly - they fight. Canadians joined battle in both WWI and WWII long before the Americans saw fit to join - and fought, not because they felt they had been invaded or attacked, but because they believed in the common good.

In the years between, the US continued to believe in 'manifest destiny' - that they were divinely empowered to control all of North American - and so covertly supported the rebels in the Rebellions of 1837/38 as well as unofficially support the Fenian during their cross-border raids into Canada. This continued US threat is what ultimately led to the Canadian provinces meeting in Prince Edward Island in the early 1860s to discuss 'confederation'. The Dominion of Canada - a confederation of Provinces - was signed into existence on July 1, 1867 with a defensive cohesion against potential US aggression as a prime motivator. Canada's capitol - Ottawa- was chosen by Queen Victoria to be the capitol specifically because it wasn't near the American border and would be difficult for the US to capture if they invaded. This is the 'elephant' of which I previously spoke and of which Canadians have grown up knowing 'instinctively' of its 'mass'.

So, yes, Reba is absolutely right. We two countries have entirely different approaches to life that were determined from two very different genesis as countries. The motivations of our early settlers were different and these differences continue to affect how each country develops and grows as a nation. This is not pro-Canada or anti-American, it is historical fact.

So, probably more Canadian history than anyone really wanted to hear:-). . . (and the opportunity to credit more of my museum work research - in 1980, I created a traveling exhibition for Queen's University Archives based on a collection of UEL documents found in an old Inn near Bath, Ontario, and in 1997 designed new historical exhibitions for Windsor's Community Museum from its early days as a fur-hunter's version of paradise to today's center of industry. One of my great pleasures is reading primary documentation to gain an understanding of the times from the perspectives of the participants).

Edited July 6, 2008 by Kathryn41

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

That beer thing is so true - I am not even a beer drinker but whenever I had moving parties or whatever I'd buy several cases, call my friends, we would get the job done and everyone would sit down and have a beer to celebrate completing the task:-) . . . and then another, and another . . . . !

i just discovered i'm more canadian than i thought

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Hehehe, well there you have it, Charles, there is another good reason why you are an honourary member of the Canada Forum!

[thetreble 19]

Very nice Kathryn. Your historic abilities are really valuable to this thread, and our knowledge in general as we look into who we are and why Canadians often feel the way we do.

[PlatyPius 5]

Hehehe, well there you have it, Charles, there is another good reason why you are an honourary member of the Canada Forum!

Since you are obviously well-versed in Canadian history, I'm curious if you've read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Canada/dp/0816031576 and, if so, how you feel about it. I bought it a while ago so I could be a little less stupid about Canada's history, but haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

[pegbert64 0]

Are they like, "what in gods name is this person coming into our backyard for?" haha

If they wondered, they didn't say anything! I actually think that approaching the neighbors with beer in hand is sort of like waving a white flag....."Don't shoot! I come in peace!! I am Canadian!!"

True story: I ran into one of said neighbors out shopping the other day, and she was short a dollar or something, so I gave her one. She said "Thanks, I owe you a dollar", to which I replied "Naww... I'll just come by for a beer." You can take the Canadian out of Canada, but you can't take Canada out of the Canadian!!!

[DeadPoolX 9]

I think the Canadians here need to read American Myths: What Canadians Think They Know About The United States by Rudyard Griffiths. The author is a columnist with the Toronto Star and a regular political commentator for CityTV. In 2006, The Globe and Mail recognized him as one of Canada's top 40 Under 40.

It's an absolutely terrific book and points out the many misconceptions that Canadians have about the United States, some of which have been propagated by the Canadian government in an effort to promote a sense of Canadian well-being and separate themselves from the United States. No, it doesn't vilify Canada and make the U.S. look the "land of milk and honey, where the streets are paved with gold." However, it makes sure to note that Canada is far from a "bed of roses" and any Canadian who truly believes that Canada is superior to the U.S. in every way is gravely mistaken.

The link above is for Amazon.com, but I'm sure it's on Amazon.ca as well and Barnes & Noble or Chapters as well. It seems to sell out pretty fast, so if you're interested in it, I'd recommend grabbing it quickly.

[Marilyn. 340]

I really don't think anyone here is saying Canada is better then the US...

we grew up in Canada, we know it isn't prefect... but it is what we know.. ..

yes Canada and the US are basically the same but we are also different in a lot of ways...

[Kathryn41 3,205]

. . . and any Canadian who truly believes that Canada is superior to the U.S. in every way is gravely mistaken.

What a very interesting statement! So, you expect Canadians are to think the opposite? That if Canada isn't superior than the US, than the US is superior? Why does it have to be a competition?! Why not just recognize that there are differences and accept that? Why do you have such a problem with allowing Canadians to be Canadians and to love their country? Why do you feel the need to keep trying to tell us we are wrong for valuing our country, our heritage , our identity and say we are supposed to prefer the US? (Hmmm, were you the speech writer for General Hull back in 1812 in one of your previous incarnations trying to 'save us' from our delusions? ).

Edited July 6, 2008 by Kathryn41

[Marilyn. 340]

. . . and any Canadian who truly believes that Canada is superior to the U.S. in every way is gravely mistaken.

What a very interesting statement! So, you expect Canadians are to think the opposite? That if Canada isn't superior than the US, than the US is superior? Why does it have to be a competition?! Why not just recognize that there are differences and accept that? Why do you have such a problem with allowing Canadians to be Canadians and to love their country? Why do you feel the need to keep trying to tell us we are wrong for valuing our country, our heritage , our identity and say we are supposed to prefer the US? (Hmmm, were you the speech writer for General Hull back in 1812 in one of your previous incarnations trying to 'save us' from our delusions? ).

that is what I was trying to say.. you said it much better then me...

I get the feeling on VJ sometimes that every other country is allowed to talk about how great their home country is except the Canadians...

[Flames9_RN 358]

. . . and any Canadian who truly believes that Canada is superior to the U.S. in every way is gravely mistaken.

What a very interesting statement! So, you expect Canadians are to think the opposite? That if Canada isn't superior than the US, than the US is superior? Why does it have to be a competition?! Why not just recognize that there are differences and accept that? Why do you have such a problem with allowing Canadians to be Canadians and to love their country? Why do you feel the need to keep trying to tell us we are wrong for valuing our country, our heritage , our identity and say we are supposed to prefer the US? (Hmmm, were you the speech writer for General Hull back in 1812 in one of your previous incarnations trying to 'save us' from our delusions? ).

that is what I was trying to say.. you said it much better then me...

I get the feeling on VJ sometimes that every other country is allowed to talk about how great their home country is except the Canadians...

oh come on Marilyn, your just GENERALIZING everything,lol I do tend to agree with you.

[Marilyn. 340]

lol.. I didn't say it was fact but sometimes I just get that feeling