"How Canada Stole the American Dream"

[DeadPoolX 9]

Okay, I need to address a few misconceptions here...

1. The United States was not founded by immigrants fleeing religious persecution. Those that did leave Europe left long before the U.S. was ever created and in fact, set up their own small towns; they had neither the means nor the capability of starting their own country. Colonies were formed and eventually ended upp belonging to the British Crown. It was only later, in 1776, that colonists decided that they had enough with English rule (mostly due to unfair practices, such as "taxation without representation") and the Revolutionary War began.

So the United States was founded by men such as George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, etc. These men were hardly running in search of religious freedom. In fact, religion wasn't on their minds very much at all (many of them believed in Deism). They simply wanted England to take them and their countryman in the colonies seriously and respect their rights -- and if that wasn't going to happen peacefully, they were going to make it happen forcefully.

2. I fail to see how an article in Maclean's Magazine is any more relevant or trustworthy than an article in the Wall Street Journal or Newsweek or Time Magazine. In other words, if and when a Canadian magazine says that Canada is "so much better" than the United States, the message should be taken with a huge grain of salt and not immediately accepted. The same is true when an American magazine writes about how great the United States is when compared to other countries.

The point I'm making here is that it's highly unlikely very many magazines -- if any -- will be objective about their country of origin when comparing it against other countries. They'll know their reading audience and the writers themselves will probably be citizens of that country anyway.

So unless the Canadians on this board are ready and willing to accept whatever Newsweek may say (even if it is positive about the U.S. but negative about Canada in the process), I don't see how any of you can also accept Maclean's Magazine as gospel.

3. Someone, much earlier on in the thread, mentioned that Canadians have much more interesting social lives. Well, this person also stated that they found this out on a trip back to Toronto for a few weeks. What that indicates to me is that they live and work in the United States. Their day-to-day life (i.e. go to work, grocery shopping, laundry, etc) is all done there. That's not very exciting, now is it?

However, when they went back to Canada for a vacation -- where they wouldn't be working or doing any mundane tasks -- they'd get to experience far more fun social activities. Now something seems amiss here. It looks like to me that these two aren't being compared properly, since you can't look at any vacation or trip as an accurate gauge of an area (while you're there, you don't do the normal ####### you do when at home -- you're there to have fun).

So I'd say this was a very unfair comparison, which would be just as unfair as if someone came from a city in Canada, where they normally live and work, and visited the U.S. for a vacation, where all they did was socialize, have fun and party. The two wouldn't be comparable at all.

4. Finally... yes, I do think there are some insecurities on the part of many Canadians. There seems to be this constant urge for Canadians to point out how "good" they are (or at least, how good they think they are) at the expense of the United States. If the U.S. can be insulted or hurt in the process, it seems so much sweeter to many Canadians.

That seems pretty juvenile, doesn't it?

Let's say that Canada is better in numerous ways than the U.S., okay? Does anyone think acting in such a manner makes Canadians look good? If anything, it breeds resentment. It's practically the same thing that Americans are accused of doing -- running around, thumping our chests and screaming out how "great we are" to the world.

If you know you're great, who cares if anyone else knows? Does recognition -- Canadian, American or anyone else's -- really matter? You know and probably so does anyone else who's smart or the least bit important to you. Telling people from other countries how great your nation is (and how awful theirs is) isn't going to help relations, and I'd think Canada would have learned by now from the mistakes the U.S. has made in the public relations field.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Heheheehe, it bears repeating . . .

"Canadians will understand and Americans will go 'huh'? (i.e won't understand).'

What an interesting collection of reactions to what was posted as an 'interesting' article .

[thetreble 19]

3. Someone, much earlier on in the thread, mentioned that Canadians have much more interesting social lives. Well, this person also stated that they found this out on a trip back to Toronto for a few weeks. What that indicates to me is that they live and work in the United States. Their day-to-day life (i.e. go to work, grocery shopping, laundry, etc) is all done there. That's not very exciting, now is it?

However, when they went back to Canada for a vacation -- where they wouldn't be working or doing any mundane tasks -- they'd get to experience far more fun social activities. Now something seems amiss here. It looks like to me that these two aren't being compared properly, since you can't look at any vacation or trip as an accurate gauge of an area (while you're there, you don't do the normal ####### you do when at home -- you're there to have fun).

So I'd say this was a very unfair comparison, which would be just as unfair as if someone came from a city in Canada, where they normally live and work, and visited the U.S. for a vacation, where all they did was socialize, have fun and party. The two wouldn't be comparable at all.

First of all, no offense, but who are you to come in and think you can settle all these "misconceptions" like we are a bunch of idiots that need a-talking to? I'm not trying to offend you and I read all of what you wrote. You are entitled to your opinion but don't come in and say you are clearing up misconceptions with "facts".

I do not believe any of us took the article in Macleans Magazine 100% seriously. Obviously there is bias in the article based on audience. Please do not treat any one like they are stupid. Most of us said we thought the article was interesting.

Also, you are talking about me when I said I went to Canada on a recent vacation and forgot how great it was. Are you forgetting I lived there for 23 years and worked and went to school there full time for years? You are telling me that I don't know what my social life WOULD be like if I lived there, worked there, etc. Isn't that a little bit silly not knowing someones history to make a comment like that?

I still loved canada and had a better social life when I was doing mundane tasks every day! Now that I live in New Jersey, it isn't even safe for me to be out by myself past it getting dark out. How can I have a social life if there is a good chance of me getting mugged at night coming into my house?

That is my experience that I can draw from an article that says Canadians have a better social life. I don't even bother going to bars in New Jersey for fear I might look at someone the wrong way...female or male.

Again, I respect your opinion, but don't take the hero approach.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

"Again, I respect your opinion, but don't take the hero approach."

Now there is a quote that is fridge-worthy! I am going to use this one. Thanks!

[thetreble 19]

take it and use it as you like.

DeadPool, I know you are Canadian and again, I wasn't trying to attack you in any way. I know my post was kind of aggressive and filled with a little bit of tension. I just wanted to point out to you that a lot of us are educated and it's not like we fictionalize stories of Canada's or America's birth, or the fruition of the two nations. We all have our own take on history, especially when it is ours.

[CBR 0]

Heheheehe, it bears repeating . . .

"Canadians will understand and Americans will go 'huh'? (i.e won't understand).'

What an interesting collection of reactions to what was posted as an 'interesting' article .

What are we Americans not understanding? There have been quite a few incorrect generalizations made about American history (canadian too btw) and culture here. Some pointed out by deadpool and eric and corinna.

I think a point needs to be made that all these Canada is better than the US sentiments are driving an unnecessary wedge. In general I find all the Canadians here and people I've met while visiting my fiance are wonderful people...well educated, kind, having good values, funny etc... overall people I would like to know. When these comments fly around it honestly pi$$es me off (and my fiance too...he made me add that). I don't see Americans making the same crappy attitude comments about Canada.

Yes, this is the Canada forum, but it's an immigration website. Aren't we Americans welcome here in the Canada section if we're marrying a Canadian? Can't we focus on the good, focus on the positive similarities? Why do we have to constantly endure a negative attitude? Why can't we all just be friends dammit?

[trailmix 77]

Heheheehe, it bears repeating . . .

"Canadians will understand and Americans will go 'huh'? (i.e won't understand).'

What an interesting collection of reactions to what was posted as an 'interesting' article .

What are we Americans not understanding? There have been quite a few incorrect generalizations made about American history (canadian too btw) and culture here. Some pointed out by deadpool and eric and corinna.

I think a point needs to be made that all these Canada is better than the US sentiments are driving an unnecessary wedge. In general I find all the Canadians here and people I've met while visiting my fiance are wonderful people...well educated, kind, having good values, funny etc... overall people I would like to know. When these comments fly around it honestly pi$$es me off (and my fiance too...he made me add that). I don't see Americans making the same crappy attitude comments about Canada.

Yes, this is the Canada forum, but it's an immigration website. Aren't we Americans welcome here in the Canada section if we're marrying a Canadian? Can't we focus on the good, focus on the positive similarities? Why do we have to constantly endure a negative attitude? Why can't we all just be friends dammit?

I don't see this - and if you are looking for negative posts about Canada or Canadians here on VJ - they aren't too hard to find.

Everytime someone makes a broad generalization about a group of people, whether that be Canadians or Americans or native peoples, someones nose is going to be put out of joint.

I haven't seen a lot of Canada is better than the U.S. sentiments expressed in this thread. They are different, that's for sure, but I don't see a lot of people saying Canada is necessarily better. Do we do some things, as a collective, better - yes I think so, but i'm sure there are some things that America perceives that they do better as well.

Of course everyone is welcome in the Canada forum, I don't know why you would think they aren't?

[Flames9_RN 358]

lol, always funny these discussions. everyone has their OWN opinions and they are entitled to them. I dont see why some people get so upset when someone states their opinion. Everyone has their own experiences. Some people love the country they are in from, visited, etc, so be it. Always funny how these posts dont have the intention of bashing one country, but seem to head in that direction. The Mclean article was interesting, but again their "facts" could be manipulated to fit their needs. What it boils down it was interesting reading, and most know it just that. Hope everyone had a good Canada day and July the 4th. And how about the Roughriders, 2-0 baby!!

[thetreble 19]

lol, always funny these discussions. everyone has their OWN opinions and they are entitled to them. I dont see why some people get so upset when someone states their opinion. Everyone has their own experiences. Some people love the country they are in from, visited, etc, so be it. Always funny how these posts dont have the intention of bashing one country, but seem to head in that direction.

This is true. I guess we should just put an end to this thread. However, does this mean that every time someone misses home they shouldn't write on VJ because their post might appear to be bashing either country? I don't see a problem with someone saying they don't like the country they moved to, or don't like something about it, without saying one is better than the other, or without saying what they like about home. I guess that is where I am coming from because I know I have posted in threads like that before.

[DeadPoolX 9]

First of all, no offense, but who are you to come in and think you can settle all these "misconceptions" like we are a bunch of idiots that need a-talking to? I'm not trying to offend you and I read all of what you wrote. You are entitled to your opinion but don't come in and say you are clearing up misconceptions with "facts".

I'm merely pointing out some of the inaccuracies that have been stated in this thread regarding American history. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but I'm not telling you how Canada was formed (and incorrectly too, I might add).

I do not believe any of us took the article in Macleans Magazine 100% seriously. Obviously there is bias in the article based on audience. Please do not treat any one like they are stupid. Most of us said we thought the article was interesting.

Yes, and that very interesting article has been taken far too seriously and factual as well. As I said before, anything written like that (whether American or Canadian) should be taken with a "huge grain of salt."

Also, you are talking about me when I said I went to Canada on a recent vacation and forgot how great it was. Are you forgetting I lived there for 23 years and worked and went to school there full time for years? You are telling me that I don't know what my social life WOULD be like if I lived there, worked there, etc. Isn't that a little bit silly not knowing someones history to make a comment like that?

I still loved canada and had a better social life when I was doing mundane tasks every day! Now that I live in New Jersey, it isn't even safe for me to be out by myself past it getting dark out. How can I have a social life if there is a good chance of me getting mugged at night coming into my house?

That is my experience that I can draw from an article that says Canadians have a better social life. I don't even bother going to bars in New Jersey for fear I might look at someone the wrong way...female or male.

Were you married in Canada or were you single? That can make a big difference? I'd also imagine you spent far more time in Canada when you were younger (i.e. during your college years), so the chances of having a more exciting social life would have been greater and had little to do with the location, but your overall situation.

Even if you only looked at your locale, you should realize that there is a huge difference between someplace like Toronto and most places in New Jersey. That'd be like comparing New York City or Los Angeles and Nanaimo or someplace else that's relatively small. The good news is that since you're in NJ, you're very close to New York. So if you're inclined to do so, it's a short drive to someplace far more lively and entertaining.

take it and use it as you like.

DeadPool, I know you are Canadian and again, I wasn't trying to attack you in any way. I know my post was kind of aggressive and filled with a little bit of tension. I just wanted to point out to you that a lot of us are educated and it's not like we fictionalize stories of Canada's or America's birth, or the fruition of the two nations. We all have our own take on history, especially when it is ours.

First of all, I'm not Canadian. I'm the USC; my wife is Canadian. Second, I'm extremely picky about history. I'd be attacking someone for getting Canadian history wrong too. Having your own take on history isn't really a good idea. There's historical fact and historical fiction. People can believe whatever they want, but that doesn't change what has occurred.

Heheheehe, it bears repeating . . .

"Canadians will understand and Americans will go 'huh'? (i.e won't understand).'

What an interesting collection of reactions to what was posted as an 'interesting' article .

What are we Americans not understanding? There have been quite a few incorrect generalizations made about American history (canadian too btw) and culture here. Some pointed out by deadpool and eric and corinna.

I think a point needs to be made that all these Canada is better than the US sentiments are driving an unnecessary wedge. In general I find all the Canadians here and people I've met while visiting my fiance are wonderful people...well educated, kind, having good values, funny etc... overall people I would like to know. When these comments fly around it honestly pi$$es me off (and my fiance too...he made me add that). I don't see Americans making the same crappy attitude comments about Canada.

Yes, this is the Canada forum, but it's an immigration website. Aren't we Americans welcome here in the Canada section if we're marrying a Canadian? Can't we focus on the good, focus on the positive similarities? Why do we have to constantly endure a negative attitude? Why can't we all just be friends dammit?

I have to agree with this. Maybe the Canadians here don't mean to be antagonistic with some of the comments (just as some Americans don't mean to be with pro-American sayings), but given the multicultural nature of this board, it's bound to rub some people the wrong way. Granted, this is the Canadian Forum and I understand that many Canadians are homesick. However, there's probably a better way to say "nice things" about Canada without bashing the United States in the process.

Both are great countries, so I don't see the need for the competition. My wife dislikes it as well. I'm sure that doesn't mean whole lot (since none of you have met her), but there really isn't a good reason to purposely hurt relations between Americans and Canadians.

[thetreble 19]

CBR- If it is not okay to say that someone feels Canada is a better place to live for themselves than the US, then you are basically saying no one has a right to feel they way they feel. It isn't always negative either! I believe some people are really going out of their way to say that the majority of threads on this section of VJ are negative, which just is not true. The Canadian community is a strong community and we are just trying to help each other through of all this the way we know how. There are a lot of hardships and negatives in this process so it's easy to say "why can't we all just be positive about the two countries", when that is pretty idealist. There is no way you know what you are getting into when you move to another country. Some people end up not liking it and that is okay; it doesn't mean the place in BAD, it just means they don't like it. I think people have a hard time separating personal preference from anti-anything here. That is the most frustrating part for me.

If you truly believe that this board has an affect on American-Canadian relations on a wide spectrum than I don't know what to tell you.

As far as history being historical, as someone who has both a BA in history and english literature, I can honesty say that not all of what you read is true. A lot of fiction is passed on and written as fact. As they always say, history is always written by the victor and therefore always incurs some sort of bias. Therefore, I find nothing wrong with people have their own perceptions of history, especially when we have not been there to see it with our own eyes.

Both ARE great countries and I would never try to dispute something as subjective as that. However, in my opinion, it doesn't mean any one is wrong or not being nice in saying they like one more than the other and stating reasons for feeling that way.

As far as living close to NYC, sure it's a short train ride, bus ride, drive there, which is great. However, the expense and population of New York City has driven up real estate and almost every other cost that I have to incur in my life substantially. There isn't that many benefits, especially if you don't have the chance to go there on a weekly basis. More over, it's population is what I find alienating. Most bigger cities in Canada are big with a small town feel. They are much more homely, in my opinion. But I digress.

[trailmix 77]

As far as history being historical, as someone who has both a BA in history and english literature, I can honesty say that not all of what you read is true. A lot of fiction is passed on and written as fact. As they always say, history is always written by the victor and therefore always incurs some sort of bias. Therefore, I find nothing wrong with people have their own perceptions of history, especially when we have not been there to see it with our own eyes.

So true treble

[Marilyn. 340]

why is it we might say one little negative thing about the US and all of a sudden we are bashing the US??

[Cassie 8]

why is it we might say one little negative thing about the US and all of a sudden we are bashing the US??

I brought that up earlier as well, and it seems there is no good answer for that particular question.

[CBR 0]

CBR- If it is not okay to say that someone feels Canada is a better place to live for themselves than the US, then you are basically saying no one has a right to feel they way they feel. It isn't always negative either! I believe some people are really going out of their way to say that the majority of threads on this section of VJ are negative, which just is not true. The Canadian community is a strong community and we are just trying to help each other through of all this the way we know how. There are a lot of hardships and negatives in this process so it's easy to say "why can't we all just be positive about the two countries", when that is pretty idealist. There is no way you know what you are getting into when you move to another country. Some people end up not liking it and that is okay; it doesn't mean the place in BAD, it just means they don't like it. I think people have a hard time separating personal preference from anti-anything here. That is the most frustrating part for me.

If you truly believe that this board has an affect on American-Canadian relations on a wide spectrum than I don't know what to tell you.

As far as history being historical, as someone who has both a BA in history and english literature, I can honesty say that not all of what you read is true. A lot of fiction is passed on and written as fact. As they always say, history is always written by the victor and therefore always incurs some sort of bias. Therefore, I find nothing wrong with people have their own perceptions of history, especially when we have not been there to see it with our own eyes.

Both ARE great countries and I would never try to dispute something as subjective as that. However, in my opinion, it doesn't mean any one is wrong or not being nice in saying they like one more than the other and stating reasons for feeling that way.

As far as living close to NYC, sure it's a short train ride, bus ride, drive there, which is great. However, the expense and population of New York City has driven up real estate and almost every other cost that I have to incur in my life substantially. There isn't that many benefits, especially if you don't have the chance to go there on a weekly basis. More over, it's population is what I find alienating. Most bigger cities in Canada are big with a small town feel. They are much more homely, in my opinion. But I digress.

You're taking my words to an extreme. I never said people don't have a right to feel the way they do, I said that the negativity makes me feel unwelcome. I didn't say this board has an affect on American-Canadian relations, but it seems to be representative of the Canadian viewpoint (the article this thread is about says it all).

I don't think you'd feel welcome either if the tables were turned.