Learning the Lingo - Should you speak the language of your new country?

[Jaylen Brit 0]

As there's another thread (concerning lack of mental health facilites/opportunities for foreign language speakers) which kinda got hijacked by this Im making a NEW one here for discussion if discussion is warranted

So..you live in the USA and yet you speak no English or very little..

This is also very common the UK although not with Spanish speakers (no doubt there are some but as they probably come from SPAIN - they will probably have learned English as school and speak it, if not perfectly, then well enough to be understood), for the UK its more with the community from India/Pakistan, and Arab countries.

Now, I can perfectly understand if you've just arrived, and English wasn't taught at school where you came from - but what if you've lived here for YEARS?

Is it racist to expect that you at least made an EFFORT to learn the tongue of your new homeland?

Or is it just common courtesy to speak more than a few words of that language?

In Singapore - where I spent some time - they call English the language of Business and its pretty much compulsory if you want to get a job with an International Company - no shortage of THOSE in SIngapore. In Australia - I worked for the Institute of Languages in NSW Uni - we dealt mainly with students (adult ages) coming in from China. There, also, English is temed the language of Business and it costs the average Chinese person a HUGE amount to come to Australia to learn the language in a more intensive manner. These people save for YEARS to get the funds to fly to Sydney and study English.

Its THAT important to them.

I've also worked in Spain - did I learn Spanish?

You betcha!

How arrogant would it have been for me to go to Spain and EXPECT them to know MY language?

Forget the fact that most of the Spanish people I met wanted only to converse in English so they could practise ( We compromised by speaking each others language and then correcting each other).

All the countries I've travelled to I've tried to learn at least SOME of the local lingo - even if that was just 'hello, goodbye, how much is this' etc And some of those places I only spent a couple of weeks in.

I know when people emigrate they often tend to 'cluster' in their own little communities - I lived in Venice Beach and there's a HUGE ex-pat Brit population there and in Santa Monica (which is 5 minutes up the road), but that didn't stop us from interracting with the Americans that also live there.

Obviously I had the advantage of speaking the same language - but if I had chosen to emigrate to Spain and not the US then i would expect the Spanish people to EXPECT me to learn Spanish - surely that's just fair?

[munchkins 0]

I too believe that you should learn the language and customs of your adopted country, after all it is common decency as you have chosen that country to make your home.

Where ever I have been in the world I have always tried to learn at least enough of the language to be able to basically converse with the local people, which taught me even more and it was certainly appreciated by them especially by the Turkish people, not an easy language to learn!!

It does annoy me when people who have been in my country for years and do not speak the language or bother to try, but as you so rightly say, some immigrants tend to flock to certain areas and then they must feel that because they are "amongst their own" they have no need. That is not right.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect immigrants to learn the primary language of their adopted country. However, it is unreasonable to expect immigrants to function in the language of their adopted country the same way a native speaker does.

It's one thing to speak a language and to communicate with people or go shopping, etc. I'ts a completely different thing to have to deal with more specialized areas of language use, such as government agencies, banks, or health services. Even I - and I do consider myself to be fluent in English - still encounter situations in which I lack the necessary language to convey or understand what is expected of me. I can't imagine how difficult it is when you've only taken a few classes...

I find it troubling that many people who don't speak a foreign language and have never lived abroad for extended periods of time think gaining proficiency in a foreign language is something that everyone can achieved easily. It's also an easy thing to say if your native language is English, which is spoken around the world, so that English speakers are less likely to encounter language barriers. If you went to Spain and tried to get along in Spanish, that's great, but I wonder if there were ever any situations in which you needed to switch to English to get by?

[munchkins 0]

I too agree that learning a foreign language is far from easy and there have been many times that I have had to "switch" to English to get by at the same time I would try to learn from that situation. .

I know that if anyone was speaking to me who had only had the basic grasp of our language, I would try to help them as much as possible, as I said before I know how difficult it is to learn a foreign language but I have always tried and not just for two week holidays!!

[Jaylen Brit 0]

No no I agree Im not talking about people who DO learn (even SOME is better than nothing as long as it isn't hello and goodbye - not if you've lived there for years) but those that DON'T...if you emigrate to another country then no-one expects you to lose all your customs or beliefs - what I think IS expected (and not unfairly) is that you also live by the customs / laws/ language of the country you came to.

After all you came willingly - you werent kidnapped and brought to that country against your will.

No-one is IMPOSING their laws upon you - its part of that country and your new life.

When I was in Spain I did things the way the Spanish did them - which was often odd but hey I was a GUEST there - if I agreed or not wasn't the issue that's just how things were. There were times I didn't have the spanish to get my point over - I usually resorted to sign language (writing Spanish was a bit of a trial because the grammar rules kept foxing me but luckily most ALL my commincation was done as speech only).

The point is I DID do my best to use the language of the country and not expect everyone to speak English.

[CarolineM 0]

When I'm in Australia I use words like,

- "Ring up" instead of "call"

-Pash instead of Make out

- Root instead of F***

- stubbie holder instead of coozie

- and so on and so forth

See? I make the effort :)

[Fischkoepfin 1]

No no I agree Im not talking about people who DO learn (even SOME is better than nothing as long as it isn't hello and goodbye - not if you've lived there for years) but those that DON'T...if you emigrate to another country then no-one expects you to lose all your customs or beliefs - what I think IS expected (and not unfairly) is that you also live by the customs / laws/ language of the country you came to.

After all you came willingly - you werent kidnapped and brought to that country against your will.

No-one is IMPOSING their laws upon you - its part of that country and your new life.

I don't think that there are many immigrants in any of our countries who are outright hostile to the idea of learning the primary language of their adopted nation. There are a number of obstacles (ESL-classes cost money and time) that might hinder immigrants from learning as quickly as one would like and some people just have absolutely no ear for foreign languages.

Another problem in this context is that some native speakers are unwilling to understand foreigners speaking their language, which makes it very difficult for immigrants to get things across and also leads to a lot of frustration. I know several native speakers of English who claim that they can't understand Chinese people speaking English and that these Chinese people should work on their accents if they want to be understood. I've heard similar things about Mexicans and Africans, which doesn't make it easier or encourage foreign language study because chances are even the most proficient second language speaker cannot imitate a native accent 100% of the time.

As to adopting culture and customs, that's something up to the individual and has nothing to do with speaking the language. You can't expect your adopted country to live according to your native country's laws or customs, but you can expect that your adopted country allows you to live according to your customs as long as they are not in opposition to its laws. By moving, immigrants become part of the society in their new country which means they need to adapt to the culture but they also inevitably will contribute to the culture. There's a great book on immigration, btw, Oscar Handlin's "The Uprooted" which discusses the way in which immigrants became part of US-society during the massive immigration waves of the past. It tells you a lot about the struggles they faced, but also about the many ways in which they made positive contributions to US-society despite native fears of immigrant cultures.

[arwensun1965 0]

Kezzie you took the words right outta my mouth, sometimes we may speak the same language but things are said differently, so making it hard for us to understand even if we speak the lingo. Yes it niggles me a bit when I hear the local shopkeeper speaking indian, even though he has lived here for years. You can go down the High Street in Southall in London and there is only one English sign and that is McDonalds, the rest are all in some kind of asian language, but the community as a whole is Asian. Why should American's learn a different language? Their primary language is English, if it were Spanish then yes we would all be learning Spanish or whatever language that was suitable for that Country. So when people who are do not use English as their primary language have to learn English it is very difficult for them. English in it's original form is the most difficult of languages to learn, sh!t I am English and I still have trouble with it.

Janice

Edited February 7, 2006 by arwensun1965

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I actually learned a little bit of a Language before I visited a country.

If someone lives in a country they should learn the language.

[Jaylen Brit 0]

I live in a country that enfolds and assimilates other cultures greatly - the UK's fave dish according to a poll was curry!

I dont have problems with people keeping alive their own culture and fitting it WITHIN the framework of the new country - it adds to the richness and diversity of life..

People who complain about accents are also idiots - its the learning of the language thats the thing - and if you LISTEN hard enough you can understand anyone. I don't expect anyone to speak English like a native - thats unrealistic unless you are born in that country and learn all the idioms and slang from birth.

My point specifically was living in your 'chosen' country and not learning the language. I know it can be hard but if I lived in Japan I'd learn Japanese and thats a different alphabet and uses pictograms.

Id also try and absorb as much Japanese culture as possible - other wise what the POINT of moving?

(edit: apparently I cant use English well today )

Edited February 7, 2006 by Jaylen Brit

[CarolineM 0]

I live in a country that enfolds and assimilates other cultures greatly - the UK's fave dish according to a poll was curry!

I dont have problems with people keeping alive their own culture and fitting it WITHIN the framework of the new country - it adds ti the richness and diversity of life..

People who complain about accents are also idiots - its the learning of the lnaguage thats the thing - and if you LISTEN hard enough you can understand anyone. I don't expect anyone to speak English like a native - thats unrealistic unless you are born in that country and learn all the idioms and slang from birth.

My point specifically was living in your 'chosen' country and not learning the language. I know it can be hard but if I lived in Japan I'd learn Japanese and thats a different alphabet and uses pictograms.

Id also try and absorb as much Japanese culture as possible - other wise what the POINT of moving?

JayLen - well said! I totally agree!

[Fischkoepfin 1]

I totally agree too. I just don't think there are many immigrants refusing to learn the native language of the land they move to, but that's that a misperception on the part of those who don't see the problems a non-native speaker might face on a daily basis. I'm not insinuating that you people react that way to non-native speakers of English, but I know from experience that such people exist all over the place and they are most likely the ones who are barely able to say thank you in another language.

I don't care if the Turkish owner of my favorite kebab place speaks Turkish with the other workers as long as they understand enough German to take my order. Similarly, I don't care if the Mexican waitress who has recently arrived in the US doesn't speak enough English to understand everything I say. Why would I mind? And why would I mind if those people needed a translator to get a SSN-card or something? And why would I mind that all Chinese people live in Chinatown or that immigrants tend to settle in ghettos and that they do things in their own languages in those living areas? It's not like they are trying to force me to learn Turkish, Spanish or Chinese, right?

[cookaor2 0]

When I was in Ukraine in September I felt embarrased/frustrated not being able to communicate. People would apologize to me for not knowing English. That just drove me nuts!!!

[meddykomp 0]

In my job I have to talk to people and try to help them and this is very hard to do when there is a language barrier. I would never expect them to lose their accents (as a matter of fact, I hope my husband never loses his ... it's cute the way he says some things). From that perspective, I think it is a good idea for them to learn English if they choose to live in the US. I live in a rather culturally mixed area and it simply isn't likely that I will learn 10 new languages

In their defense however, some languages are easier to learn than others. I find french to be an easy language to learn, but there are swedish sounds (lots of them) that I simply cannot seem to learn how to make. Even worse, when it sounds to me like I am saying what I heard, it doesnt sound the same to a Swede.

So I struggle to learn swedish and after a year and a half I understand less than 100 words. And the words I know cannot be put together to say anything that makes any sense. In the past few years I have learned many computer languages and yet find it incredibly difficult to learn this one spoken language. Because of that, I have found that I have recently become much more patient and compassionate to those who struggle with learning english.

[pedroh 21]

I totally agree too. I just don't think there are many immigrants refusing to learn the native language of the land they move to, but that's that a misperception on the part of those who don't see the problems a non-native speaker might face on a daily basis. I'm not insinuating that you people react that way to non-native speakers of English, but I know from experience that such people exist all over the place and they are most likely the ones who are barely able to say thank you in another language.

I don't care if the Turkish owner of my favorite kebab place speaks Turkish with the other workers as long as they understand enough German to take my order. Similarly, I don't care if the Mexican waitress who has recently arrived in the US doesn't speak enough English to understand everything I say. Why would I mind? And why would I mind if those people needed a translator to get a SSN-card or something? And why would I mind that all Chinese people live in Chinatown or that immigrants tend to settle in ghettos and that they do things in their own languages in those living areas? It's not like they are trying to force me to learn Turkish, Spanish or Chinese, right?

yummy.. i want a kebab.. but.. yes.. u're right.. I agree it's ridiculous for people who've lived 5 or 10 years in USA and haven't learn english at all, or don't bother.. but at the same time, it's a business opportunity lol.. so.. its a double faced issue.. yes.. some americans want them to learn english, some americans dont care and hire bilingual personnel .. but no.. for real.. i wish the immigrant hispanic population take the english thing more seriously.. not using it just makes the isolation between americanos and hispanics bigger..