No ice at the North Pole this year (seriously)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So if CO2 isn't a GW pollutant as its been frivolously claimed before, how come its implied volcanically as a possible cause of the 50-50 chance the Artic will go ice free this summer season?

Not to mention how volcanic activity can entirely account for the wide-scale melting of the ice packs. We are talking about a pretty vast area after all...

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Have you ever stood in the middle of a room full of lava? That ####### is hot.

Edited June 27, 2008 by VJ Troll

[HAL 9000 96]

So if CO2 isn't a GW pollutant as its been frivolously claimed before, how come its implied volcanically as a possible cause of the 50-50 chance the Artic will go ice free this summer season?

Not to mention how volcanic activity can entirely account for the wide-scale melting of the ice packs. We are talking about a pretty vast area after all...

And how pressure affects heat... (hint: increase pressure, make it harder for heat to dissipate...)

All I know is that for volcanic eruptions to drive a continual warming of sub-ice temperatures, you'd have to have a volcano able to beat the high temperatures that deep AND a volcano able to dissipate all that heat, from a perpetually active eruption, up to the ice.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Have you ever stood in the middle of a room full of lava? That ####### is hot.

I rather doubt that the sea floor volcanoes are "new". The question would surely be whether or not they are more active now than in the past. Also the article Gary posted doesn't link this volcanic activity to melting ice sheets...

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

increase pressure, make it harder for heat to dissipate...

Your facts won't work here, college boy!

I rather doubt that the sea floor volcanoes are "new".

They are new.

They were caused by all those liberals eating organic produce.

[HAL 9000 96]

increase pressure, make it harder for heat to dissipate...

Your facts won't work here, college boy!

I rather doubt that the sea floor volcanoes are "new".

They are new.

They were caused by all those liberals eating organic produce.

Admit you are not immune to my powerful science mind tricks...

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

increase pressure, make it harder for heat to dissipate...

Your facts won't work here, college boy!

I rather doubt that the sea floor volcanoes are "new".

They are new.

They were caused by all those liberals eating organic produce.

Admit you are not immune to my powerful science mind tricks...

[HAL 9000 96]

Have you ever stood in the middle of a room full of lava? That ####### is hot.

I rather doubt that the sea floor volcanoes are "new". The question would surely be whether or not they are more active now than in the past. Also the article Gary posted doesn't link this volcanic activity to melting ice sheets...

Anyway I'll give it a bit of relevancy. Does the article itself mention an acidification of the sub-ice water? Surely any scientist looking to link volcanic activity with possible causes of ice loss can understand that acids (acid salts in water solution) tend to distribute water molecules from compact lattices (ice) to colder, liquid arrangements.

And, I wonder what this spells for the whole oceanic heat-sinking effect...

[mendeleev 68]

That's actually quite worrying - given that the Arctic contains enough water locked in ice to raise sea levels around the world by several meters...

http://atoc.colorado.edu/~dcn/reprints/Ove...tal_EOS2005.pdf

If the Arctic ocean becomes completely ice free in summer it will be an event which has not happened for at least 1 million years.

I think what is alarming about this is the speed with which this is occurring...

Number 6, if arctic sea ice melts, sea levels will not rise because that ice is already floating on water. (If Greenland melts, that would raise sea levels a several meters. Greenland is melting faster than anticipated, but that ice cap will hang around a while yet.)

The more interesting question is how large an amplification of global warming will an open Arctic ocean produce? Open water absorbs sunlight, heating the ocean while ice pack pretty effectively reflects sunlight back out to space. There are indications that the arctic ocean is warming enough to decompose methane clathrates at accelerated rates. There are tremendous amounts of methane (a very potent greenhouse gas) locked up in arctic methane clathrates. The evolution of this methane is quite possible but is not included in current models of global warming. The effect would be to accelerate the rate of warming. It is difficult to estimate how large the effect could be.

Edited June 27, 2008 by novotul

[HAL 9000 96]

Oh the rapture...

[mendeleev 68]

Thanks, Gary, for mentioning the article in Nature. I opened the current issue only today.

The article in question, while interesting, makes no reference to global warming or arctic ice melting. (Has anyone else read it? Nature, volume 453, 1236.) The area in question is a very slowly spreading portion of sea floor. Authors suggest that these sorts of areas, which are rare (sea floor at mid-oceanic ridges typically spread much more rapidly) may be ideal areas for buildup of dissolved carbon dioxide, leading to the champagne-cork phenomenon that Gary's popularized summary discusses. That event was apparently related, probably causally, to a number of small earthquakes in the area in 1999.

The ongoing disappearance of arctic sea ice has been going on steadily over the last several decades and appears to have accelerated abruptly in the past couple years.

[HAL 9000 96]

Yeah I saw it...

Funny to say there is another (unrelated to this thread) article about temperature measurements:

Nature. Vol 453, p. 646 (29 May 08)

I don't have the web version in front of me and I want to go home from lab now... sorry.

[GaryC 7]

Oh the rapture...

Just as I thought. You want the planet to warm.

[GaryC 7]

Before the wolves tear into me I will say it, no this does not disprove that man is causing the earth to warm. But this does show that it isn't as simple as "warmer planet = less ice".

Melting ice may not explain warming Arctic

09:53 03 January 2008

NewScientist.com news service

Catherine Brahic

Energy flowing from the equator up towards the North Pole may partly explain the rapid warming of the Arctic, say researchers.

It is well documented that the Arctic is warming about twice as fast as the rest of the globe, but the reason for this remains a mystery.

The leading hypothesis is that ice disappearing as a result of climate change is largely to blame. Warmer temperatures melt the Arctic ice and exposes water, which absorbs more sunlight than ice. This causes temperatures to rise further, melting more ice, and so on.

But a team led by Rune Graversen at the University of Stockholm in Sweden now challenges this theory.

The researchers analysed temperature measurements taken during the 1980s and 1990s by satellite instruments. But instead of just looking at which regions have warmed the most, they also examined the height in the atmosphere where the warming took place.

Lofty changes

The researchers found that most of the warming is happening high above ground. At midsummer, the data shows that the air that has warmed the most is 2 kilometres above land.

This, says Graversen, rules out the theory that Arctic warming is being accelerated by melting ice. Although the researchers remain unsure what is accelerating Arctic warming, they suggest it might be related to how fast energy is being transported towards the North Pole by cyclones.

The team calculated the flow of energy into the Arctic Circle using meteorological data, and looked at how this flow has changed since the 1980s.

They found that the amount of energy transported from the tropics into the Arctic has increased and that the increase corresponds to the rise of temperatures in the region.

"We are not saying this is the only explanation," says Graversen, "this could explain maybe 25% of the amplification of warming in the Arctic."

Antarctic question

The team’s findings fit well with suggestions that more and more cyclones, which carry warm air, have been moving into the Arctic Circle.

Clouds could also explain the movement of energy into the Arctic. Some studies have suggested that there are more and more clouds over the Arctic, says Graversen. These might be soaking up energy from the sun and warming up the atmosphere.

One question Graversen's findings raise is whether energy from the tropics is also being directed towards the South Pole.

The surface of the Antarctic is not warming nearly as fast as the rest of the globe, but in 2006, John Turner of the British Antarctic Survey published findings showing that the air 5 kilometres above Antarctica has warmed more than anywhere else on Earth over the last 30 years.

http://environment.newscientist.com/articl...ing-arctic.html

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Gary, set aside Global Warming for a minute. We are seeing mercury levels in the oceans increasing, plant and animal species disappearing, bodies of water where nothing can live - all direct results from human activity. We cannot just ignore the cause and effect with regard to our environment...we must change the way we have been doing things, find less destructive and polluting ways. We are stewards of the planet and have a responsibility to take care of it, not disregard it for our own short term gains.