In Egypt, "Prostitute" Is a Slippery Term

[♥JP♥ 5]

Actually I think it's pretty insulting all the way around. But it's good they don't impose their expectations on everyone too. Take Saudi, you have to wear a hijab there. Not my belief but they impose it on everyone.

Do you mean by law or by tradition? foreign women are not required by any law in KSA to cover their hair, but no doing so will result in a great deal of harrassment making it almost law de facto.

I meant by expectation, which as you pointed out doesn't really matter if it's law or not.

I jsut need my reading glasses today

LOL and I need a cookie.

awww you know I can't say no to your cookie requests

I can't wait until Microsoft makes the first scratch-n- sniff screen.

Hey, what is this #######? This is the ####### thread.

LOL...Jenn if you want to see whores on your birthday you will have to go to the local nudey bar

Golden Banana....here I come!

I hear they have good food. Isn't that why most of the men go?

[mybackpages 0]

Hey, what is this #######? This is the ####### thread.

You know how JP feels about cookies! She asks and you have to deliver- no matter what thread you are in- it's a princess thing.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Hey, what is this #######? This is the ####### thread.

You know how JP feels about cookies! She asks and you have to deliver- no matter what thread you are in- it's a princess thing.

[mybackpages 0]

It's not just foreigners who are subject to being judged as prostitutes. here's an excerpt from an essay on Berber cultural identity in Morocco:

My mother described Berbers as a rural people, known for being hard bargainers, diligent workers and skillful dancers—dancing and music being an important aspect of Moroccan and Berber culture. However, dancing in many of Morocco’s urban centers is believed to be akin to prostitution. Thus, as my mother hinted, Berber women are described both as strong and hard working as well as sexual and loose. I asked her one day, “Oohmi, ante Shilha?” (“Mom, are you Berber?”), to which she responded by opening her eyes wide and shaking her head. Clearly, this was not a label with which my mother wanted to align herself.

You can read the entire article here, but you have to go through a free online registration.

http://www.glimpse.org/article_577.html

By the way traditional among Berbers in Southern Morocco, prostitution did not have the same stigma that it does in so many places in the world.

[Nasturtium 500]

So it's "accepted" but only superficially, only to your face basically.

I mean, I just think it's good to keep in mind, you know?

I had asked my husband about this a while back since we're not staying here. he said that they* give "excuses" for foreign girls and men because the thought it basically that they are behaving normally according to their own culture, which is, of course, a loose culture. They basically accept you as you are, but it's with the knowledge that you're A) going away-- you're not a local or living there and B..) Doing the best you can and have no idea what is expected of you anyway. BUT, if you move there or they figure out you're married to one of the locals, then they begin to impose their manners and customs and culture on you, with the thought that you are going to be around and also that your spouse should be teaching you how to behave.. and of course that you should be better than the regular visitors.

*disclaimer: this is small village logic from the north of Jordan which does not always apply everywhere in MENA or even Jordan itself.

Edited June 27, 2008 by julianna

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

So it's "accepted" but only superficially, only to your face basically.

I mean, I just think it's good to keep in mind, you know?

I had asked my husband about this a while back since we're not staying here. he said that they* give "excuses" for foreign girls and men because the thought it basically that they are behaving normally according to their own culture, which is, of course, a loose culture. They basically accept you as you are, but it's with the knowledge that you're A) going away-- you're not a local or living there and B) Doing the best you can and have no idea what is expected of you anyway. BUT, if you move there or they figure out you're married to one of the locals, then they begin to impose their manners and customs and culture on you, with the thought that you are going to be around and also that your spouse should be teaching you how to behave.. and of course that you should be better than the regular visitors.

*disclaimer: this is small village logic from the north of Jordan which does not always apply everywhere in MENA or even Jordan itself.

I'm glad you put that disclaimer because I'm sitting here thinking ut oh! I'm going to live there after graduation in less than a year for about 6 months to a year and half and I'm going to have to face battling that. F! I better get looking at graduate schools and forget going there and just get him here on my turf if that's the case.

[Nasturtium 500]

I'm glad you put that disclaimer because I'm sitting here thinking ut oh! I'm going to live there after graduation in less than a year for about 6 months to a year and half and I'm going to have to face battling that. F! I better get looking at graduate schools and forget going there and just get him here on my turf if that's the case.

In that case i would just ask your husband what is expected of you. Sometimes, it takes them a while to answer these things truthfully. Sometimes you can get a faster answer by asking what is expected of the local girls and then turning that answer around into a "so is this what is acceptable" thing and then asking if foreign wives (not you) are held to the same standard, then moving on to you. That's if you hit a "happy" wall. I noticed with many people, as their guests or as a friend or even with Ammar in the beginning, I kept hitting this wall of not really getting an answer for things. I had to figure out how to circumvent this seeming cultural need to placate the questioner. Now he just tells me how it is, straight up But if you hit that, you can try a more general line of questioning and you'll sometimes get your answer.

[♥JP♥ 5]

Hey, what is this #######? This is the ####### thread.

You know how JP feels about cookies! She asks and you have to deliver- no matter what thread you are in- it's a princess thing.

"But I love the cookie" - Hammy

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

I'm glad you put that disclaimer because I'm sitting here thinking ut oh! I'm going to live there after graduation in less than a year for about 6 months to a year and half and I'm going to have to face battling that. F! I better get looking at graduate schools and forget going there and just get him here on my turf if that's the case.

In that case i would just ask your husband what is expected of you. Sometimes, it takes them a while to answer these things truthfully. Sometimes you can get a faster answer by asking what is expected of the local girls and then turning that answer around into a "so is this what is acceptable" thing and then asking if foreign wives (not you) are held to the same standard, then moving on to you. That's if you hit a "happy" wall. I noticed with many people, as their guests or as a friend or even with Ammar in the beginning, I kept hitting this wall of not really getting an answer for things. I had to figure out how to circumvent this seeming cultural need to placate the questioner. Now he just tells me how it is, straight up But if you hit that, you can try a more general line of questioning and you'll sometimes get your answer.

woah. I have to read this a couple of times before application.

[mybackpages 0]

So it's "accepted" but only superficially, only to your face basically.

I mean, I just think it's good to keep in mind, you know?

I had asked my husband about this a while back since we're not staying here. he said that they* give "excuses" for foreign girls and men because the thought it basically that they are behaving normally according to their own culture, which is, of course, a loose culture. They basically accept you as you are, but it's with the knowledge that you're A) going away-- you're not a local or living there and B..) Doing the best you can and have no idea what is expected of you anyway. BUT, if you move there or they figure out you're married to one of the locals, then they begin to impose their manners and customs and culture on you, with the thought that you are going to be around and also that your spouse should be teaching you how to behave.. and of course that you should be better than the regular visitors.

*disclaimer: this is small village logic from the north of Jordan which does not always apply everywhere in MENA or even Jordan itself.

This makes me think of Idir's hometown of Erfoud in southern Morocco. Tons of tourist pour through to see the sand dunes. Lots of poor behavior and choices are "excused" as Juliana puts it. I've never felt the local customs and styles imposed on me by anyone, but I know tere are plenty of more traditional people outside of my inlaws that are thinking it. I do put a self-imposed standard on myself. It's part respect for the local customs and part fear of encouraging local gossip. With all the stories (both ture and not) about American woman going around, I feel I have to work a little harder to overcome these stereotypes. If that makes sense.

I think it would be very different living in or more urban area. There would still be local customs and expectations but perhaps more easier for a western to wrap their heads around on a day to day basis.

[♥JP♥ 5]

So it's "accepted" but only superficially, only to your face basically.

I mean, I just think it's good to keep in mind, you know?

I had asked my husband about this a while back since we're not staying here. he said that they* give "excuses" for foreign girls and men because the thought it basically that they are behaving normally according to their own culture, which is, of course, a loose culture. They basically accept you as you are, but it's with the knowledge that you're A) going away-- you're not a local or living there and B..) Doing the best you can and have no idea what is expected of you anyway. BUT, if you move there or they figure out you're married to one of the locals, then they begin to impose their manners and customs and culture on you, with the thought that you are going to be around and also that your spouse should be teaching you how to behave.. and of course that you should be better than the regular visitors.

*disclaimer: this is small village logic from the north of Jordan which does not always apply everywhere in MENA or even Jordan itself.

Sounds about right for Jordan.

[Nasturtium 500]

I also meant to say (as part of the local logic) that your behavior is considered a reflection on your husband. So if you were perceived as not behaving correctly, it would not only be a negative against you but a negative against him and his family. it took us a bit to bridge the "I will teach you to be Jordanian" thing he had going on. I eventually told him "I am not opposed to adopting your ways of cleaning, presentation, dress, and general manners, but I will never be Jordanian." I think for a while that confused him as he thought I was kind of being obstinate about things lol. I eventually had to ask him-- how many people in your village will refer to me as foreigner forever? And he admitted everyone would. Point!!! I will always be foreign. i can adopt all the manners I want, but i am under no oddly concieved idea that I will ever be considered local-- and I am not one who feels that need to "belong" so I am fine with that. In some ways, it reminds me of small-town America.

I am also not interested in changing my hobbies or interests for the culture, either. So what if none of them like to photograph flowers? Someone is walking around with me and doing it!

MBP-- I had my own standard as well i am sure I made plenty of mistakes, but at least I made them covered up LOL.

Edited June 27, 2008 by julianna

[mybackpages 0]

MBP-- I had my own standard as well i am sure I made plenty of mistakes, but at least I made them covered up LOL.

yep and I will continue to make plenty of mistakes because I will never realy lose my own customs and mores to become Moroccan.

I like what you write about keeping your own sense of identity. Afterall the goal is to be respectful of the local traditions and expectations not lose yourself and become some sort of reinvented local woman. I think by being respactful of teh culture and really trying to understand the logic behind it will allow the "foreigner" a lot of room to be herself and make these "mistakes".

[mybackpages 0]

I also meant to add a comment about the wife reflecting the husband.

Doesn't that happen here too? Don't we say things like "what kind of family does she/he come from?" Or "They are such a nice family because [fil in the blank]"

It's not so pronouced here because we tend to value the individual more than the community, but it happens. Maybe more in some sub-cultures within the US than in others.

[♥JP♥ 5]

I also meant to add a comment about the wife reflecting the husband.

Doesn't that happen here too? Don't we say things like "what kind of family does she/he come from?" Or "They are such a nice family because [fil in the blank]"

It's not so pronouced here because we tend to value the individual more than the community, but it happens. Maybe more in some sub-cultures within the US than in others.

Actually I think it happens more often that we think. A good example of this was at our companies holiday party last year. A sales managers wife was dancing quite provocativly on the dance floor and was pretty drunk. People here still talk about it..."can you believe so and so's wife did that?"