Obamacare

[ready4ONE 5,400]

The Case For Single Payer, Universal Health Care For The United States

Outline of Talk Given To The Association of State Green Parties, Moodus, Connecticut on June 4, 1999

By John R. Battista, M.D. and Justine McCabe, Ph.D.

1. Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.

2. Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.

* Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

* Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960

* Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.

* Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

* Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.

* Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation

3. Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

* Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care

* Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.

* Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits

* Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.

* Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money

4. Myth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed Services

* Fact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the US

* Fact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.

* Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)

* Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.

* Fact Five: There would be no lines under a universal health care system in the United States because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%

* Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.

5. Myth Four: Universal Health Care Would Result In Government Control And Intrusion Into Health Care Resulting In Loss Of Freedom Of Choice

* Fact One: There would be free choice of health care providers under a single payer universal health care system, unlike our current managed care system in which people are forced to see providers on the insurer’s panel to obtain medical benefits

* Fact Two: There would be no management of care under a single payer, universal health care system unlike the current managed care system which mandates insurer preapproval for services thus undercutting patient confidentiality and taking health care decisions away from the health care provider and consumer

* Fact Three: Although health care providers fees would be set as they are currently in 90% of cases, providers would have a means of negotiating fees unlike the current managed care system in which they are set in corporate board rooms with profits, not patient care, in mind

* Fact Four: Taxes, fees and benefits would be decided by the insurer which would be under the control of a diverse board representing consumers, providers, business and government. It would not be a government controlled system, although the government would have to approve the taxes. The system would be run by a public trust, not the government.

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care administered by a state public health system would be much more democratic and much less intrusive than our current system. Consumers and providers would have a voice in determining benefits, rates and taxes. Problems with free choice, confidentiality and medical decision making would be resolved

6. Myth Five: Universal Health Care Is Socialized Medicine And Would Be Unacceptable To The Public

* Fact One: Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.

* Fact Two: Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system (see The Harris Poll #78, October 20, 2005)

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care is not socialized medicine and would be preferred by the majority of the citizens of this country

7. Myth Six: The Problems With The US Health Care System Are Being Solved and Are Best Solved By Private Corporate Managed Care Medicine because they are the most efficient

* Fact One: Private for profit corporation are the lease efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.

* Fact Two: The same procedure in the same hospital the year after conversion from not-for profit to for-profit costs in between 20 to 35% more

* Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care

* Fact Four: The quality of health care in the US has deteriorated under managed care. Access problems have increased. The number of uninsured has dramatically increased (increase of 10 million to 43.4 million from 1989 to 1996, increase of 2.4% from 1989 to 1996- 16% in 1996 and increasing each year).

* Fact Five: The level of satisfaction with the US health care system is the lowest of any industrialized nation.

* Fact Six: 80% of citizens and 71% of doctors believe that managed care has caused quality of care to be compromised

* Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

8. Overall Answer to the questions Why doesn’t the US have single payer universal health care when single payer universal health care is the most efficient, most democratic and most equitable means to deliver health care? Why does the United States remain wedded to an inefficient, autocratic and immoral system that makes health care accessible to the wealthy and not the poor when a vast majority of citizens want it to be a right of citizenship?

Conclusion: Corporations are able to buy politicians through our campaign finance system and control the media to convince people that corporate health care is democratic, represents freedom, and is the most efficient system for delivering health care

9. What you can do about this through your state Green Party

* Work to pass a single payer, universal health care bill or referendum in your state. State level bills and referenda will be most effective because a federal health care system might in fact be too bureaucratic, and because it is not politically realistic at this time.

* Bills or referendum must be written by and supported by health care providers for the legislature to take them seriously. It is thus imperative to form an alliance with provider groups. The most effective provider group to go through is Physicians For A National Health Program which has chapters in every state (see hand out for partial listing of contact people). A number of states already have organized single payer efforts: Massachusetts, California, Washington, Oregon, New Mexico, and Maryland. Join with them.

* A first step is to contact state representatives from PNHP and offer to join with them to write and support a bill bringing single payer, universal health care to your state if this has not already been done. The Connecticut and Massachusetts Bills can be used as models to make this task easier (email us at riverbnd@javanet.com and we will send you copies of the bills). A referendum is another way to go, in which case the California referendum can be used as a model.

* A second step is to contact state legislators and find a group who are willing to sponsor such a bill.

* A third step is to create a coalition of groups to work together to support and publicize this work, or to try to bring together existing groups to work together on this project. Labor unions, progressive democratic groups, Medicare/Senior Advocacy groups, the Labor Party, the Reform Party, UHCAN, existing health care advocacy groups, and state health care provider groups are all imporatnt to work with and get to join such a coalition. The state medical society and state hospital association are critical to work with in order to get any legislation passed. Try to get them to work with you to design a new model for health care delivery. They will be particularly concerned about who will control the system, and be very mistrustful of government. A public trust model with participation by providers, hospitals, business, the public and government is like to be much more acceptable to them than a pure government system. Emphasize doing away with managed care, and get them to try and work with you to find other ways to control costs (necessary to convince politicians) such as quality assurance standards, which will also protect them from malpractice

* A fourth step is to give talks in support of your bill or referendum where ever possible. Senior groups, medical staffs, church groups, high school assemblies, and labor unions are particularly good sources. Excellent materials including slides, a chart book and videos are available through PNHP.

* A fifth step is to raise money through fund raisers, contributions and benefits held by entertainers. Benefits are particularly useful in bringing out people who you can inform about single payer, universal health care and your efforts.

* A sixth step is to develop media access. The creation of videos that can be shown on local cable access TV stations is very effective. Newspaper articles, letters to the editor, and articles by the press are critical. Radio interviews and radio talk shows are important.

* Getting the public to write and call their state representatives in support of a proposed bill is critical, as is coordinating testimony at a public hearing.

* Because the data about single payer universal health care are so revealing of the problems with corporate America, and because the US citizenry is so concerned and dissatisfied with our health care system these efforts may yield surprisingly positive results and be helpful in establishing the Green Party in the US as a party of the people, by the people and for the people.

We would be happy to help you. Contact us by email at riverbnd@javanet.com, by phone at 860-354-1822, or by mail at 88 Cherniske Road, New Milford, CT 06776

http://cthealth.server101.com/the_case_for...ited_states.htm

What she said!

Arguing Obama's plan won't fix things properly is dishonest, since the Republican Party fights tooth and nail to avoid universal health coverage. Other countries do it, and have better health care systems than we do... No need to reinvent the wheel, look around, incorporate what works, and move on to other issues that need fixing! Staying the course on this issue, as voting Republican would be doing, is simply the wrong thing to do.

[GaryC 7]

Medicine by bureaucrats is what we have today. More so than any other nation. The farther we get away from what we have today, the better.

Yet its what people that support a ridiculous approach to marketing medicine precisely want.

It is not expected for Obama to fix everything the Republicans have screwed up in our government and in our economy. That still doesn't preclude his attempt to do so when the time comes.

The US government invented bureaucrats. If anyone thinks turning health care over to the government will eleminate them isn't thinking.

The US Government what?

Gary, the US government should be afraid of its citizens, not its corporate beaurocrats.

The US Government what? Huh?

I trust business a lot more than the government regardless of who runs it.

And it shows. In that case, make it your mission in life to turn the government into a corporation. Oh wait... under the Republicans, that's kind of what it is. Lucky for the most of us, that is absolutely the opposite of what the American people- not just Gary, want.

And are you implying that the US Government should NOT be concerned about what its citizens want? Bravo.

No, and you know that. Nice try at twisting again. It's what your good at.

BTW, a majority of Americans don't want government run health care. We are about evenly split with no majority wanting one or the other. This is from a Harvard study.

Q2. So far as you understand the phrase, do you think that if we had socialized medicine in this country that the health care system would be better or worse than what we have now?

45% Better

39% Worse

4% About the same (volunteer)

12% Don't know/Refused

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-rel...vard_Harris.pdf

Polling... ahhh...

45% is not a majority over 39% ?

I mean, if you want to cite a Harvard study or a Timbutku U study, 45 > 39... unless we're talking about some other kind of sense here...

A majority is 50%+, this is a plurality. I'm surprised at you Mav.

Very good. So... again... 45% is not a majority over 39% ???

(btw, your definition is of a simple, subset majority compared to 100%)

I will accept your semantics as well. But thanks for your surprise. Even I can wikipedia.

45% is not significant enough when all other subsets are exclusionary of its opposite being plural?

Point is that your statement that this is what America wants isn't true.

"Lucky for the most of us, that is absolutely the opposite of what the American people- not just Gary, want."

Some people want it, some do not. You don't even have a majority (as in 50%+) or "most" that want it.

To make matters worse this breaks down to a political thing. (surprise!!). Most democrats want it and most republicans don't.

[GaryC 7]

Arguing Obama's plan won't fix things properly is dishonest, since the Republican Party fights tooth and nail to avoid universal health coverage. Other countries do it, and have better health care systems than we do... No need to reinvent the wheel, look around, incorporate what works, and move on to other issues that need fixing! Staying the course on this issue, as voting Republican would be doing, is simply the wrong thing to do.

It isn't dishonest at all. In my opinion and the opinions of others Obama will make things worse. But you are right about one thing. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. We have a good system in place now. Lets just fix that. Universal health care is reinventing the wheel because what works in other countries will not work here.

[mawilson 2,133]

Harvard study = "liberal elite"! Who cares?

You forgot to use all bolding.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Harvard study = "liberal elite"! Who cares?

You forgot to use all bolding.

dude what you doin up so late?

[mawilson 2,133]

Harvard study = "liberal elite"! Who cares?

You forgot to use all bolding.

dude what you doin up so late?

I can ask you the same question!

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Medicine by bureaucrats is what we have today. More so than any other nation. The farther we get away from what we have today, the better.

Yet its what people that support a ridiculous approach to marketing medicine precisely want.

It is not expected for Obama to fix everything the Republicans have screwed up in our government and in our economy. That still doesn't preclude his attempt to do so when the time comes.

The US government invented bureaucrats. If anyone thinks turning health care over to the government will eleminate them isn't thinking.

The undeniable fact is that no healthcare system has as much red tape as that in the US. No government anywhere in the world - including here in the US - has created a bloated apparatus of bureaucrats interfering with the care for people as has the private insurance industry that we allow to swallow up and waste about a third of every dollar that is supposed to go towards healthcare. You can wiggle all you want but there isn't any argument that we pay by far the most per capita for healthcare while leaving the largest portion of the population without access to proper care. We get the least bang for the buck. Those are the facts that illustrate the inefficiency of this ridiculous excuse for a healthcare system that we have today. Anyone that still believes that the private insurance industry can do a better job is simply in denial.

[HAL 9000 96]

The Case For Single Payer, Universal Health Care For The United States

Outline of Talk Given To The Association of State Green Parties, Moodus, Connecticut on June 4, 1999

By John R. Battista, M.D. and Justine McCabe, Ph.D.

1. Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.

2. Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.

* Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

* Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960

* Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.

* Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

* Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.

* Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation

3. Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

* Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care

* Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.

* Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits

* Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.

* Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money

4. Myth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed Services

* Fact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the US

* Fact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.

* Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)

* Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.

* Fact Five: There would be no lines under a universal health care system in the United States because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%

* Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.

5. Myth Four: Universal Health Care Would Result In Government Control And Intrusion Into Health Care Resulting In Loss Of Freedom Of Choice

* Fact One: There would be free choice of health care providers under a single payer universal health care system, unlike our current managed care system in which people are forced to see providers on the insurer’s panel to obtain medical benefits

* Fact Two: There would be no management of care under a single payer, universal health care system unlike the current managed care system which mandates insurer preapproval for services thus undercutting patient confidentiality and taking health care decisions away from the health care provider and consumer

* Fact Three: Although health care providers fees would be set as they are currently in 90% of cases, providers would have a means of negotiating fees unlike the current managed care system in which they are set in corporate board rooms with profits, not patient care, in mind

* Fact Four: Taxes, fees and benefits would be decided by the insurer which would be under the control of a diverse board representing consumers, providers, business and government. It would not be a government controlled system, although the government would have to approve the taxes. The system would be run by a public trust, not the government.

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care administered by a state public health system would be much more democratic and much less intrusive than our current system. Consumers and providers would have a voice in determining benefits, rates and taxes. Problems with free choice, confidentiality and medical decision making would be resolved

6. Myth Five: Universal Health Care Is Socialized Medicine And Would Be Unacceptable To The Public

* Fact One: Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.

* Fact Two: Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system (see The Harris Poll #78, October 20, 2005)

* Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care is not socialized medicine and would be preferred by the majority of the citizens of this country

7. Myth Six: The Problems With The US Health Care System Are Being Solved and Are Best Solved By Private Corporate Managed Care Medicine because they are the most efficient

* Fact One: Private for profit corporation are the lease efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.

* Fact Two: The same procedure in the same hospital the year after conversion from not-for profit to for-profit costs in between 20 to 35% more

* Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care

* Fact Four: The quality of health care in the US has deteriorated under managed care. Access problems have increased. The number of uninsured has dramatically increased (increase of 10 million to 43.4 million from 1989 to 1996, increase of 2.4% from 1989 to 1996- 16% in 1996 and increasing each year).

* Fact Five: The level of satisfaction with the US health care system is the lowest of any industrialized nation.

* Fact Six: 80% of citizens and 71% of doctors believe that managed care has caused quality of care to be compromised

* Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

8. Overall Answer to the questions Why doesn’t the US have single payer universal health care when single payer universal health care is the most efficient, most democratic and most equitable means to deliver health care? Why does the United States remain wedded to an inefficient, autocratic and immoral system that makes health care accessible to the wealthy and not the poor when a vast majority of citizens want it to be a right of citizenship?

Conclusion: Corporations are able to buy politicians through our campaign finance system and control the media to convince people that corporate health care is democratic, represents freedom, and is the most efficient system for delivering health care

9. What you can do about this through your state Green Party

* Work to pass a single payer, universal health care bill or referendum in your state. State level bills and referenda will be most effective because a federal health care system might in fact be too bureaucratic, and because it is not politically realistic at this time.

* Bills or referendum must be written by and supported by health care providers for the legislature to take them seriously. It is thus imperative to form an alliance with provider groups. The most effective provider group to go through is Physicians For A National Health Program which has chapters in every state (see hand out for partial listing of contact people). A number of states already have organized single payer efforts: Massachusetts, California, Washington, Oregon, New Mexico, and Maryland. Join with them.

* A first step is to contact state representatives from PNHP and offer to join with them to write and support a bill bringing single payer, universal health care to your state if this has not already been done. The Connecticut and Massachusetts Bills can be used as models to make this task easier (email us at riverbnd@javanet.com and we will send you copies of the bills). A referendum is another way to go, in which case the California referendum can be used as a model.

* A second step is to contact state legislators and find a group who are willing to sponsor such a bill.

* A third step is to create a coalition of groups to work together to support and publicize this work, or to try to bring together existing groups to work together on this project. Labor unions, progressive democratic groups, Medicare/Senior Advocacy groups, the Labor Party, the Reform Party, UHCAN, existing health care advocacy groups, and state health care provider groups are all imporatnt to work with and get to join such a coalition. The state medical society and state hospital association are critical to work with in order to get any legislation passed. Try to get them to work with you to design a new model for health care delivery. They will be particularly concerned about who will control the system, and be very mistrustful of government. A public trust model with participation by providers, hospitals, business, the public and government is like to be much more acceptable to them than a pure government system. Emphasize doing away with managed care, and get them to try and work with you to find other ways to control costs (necessary to convince politicians) such as quality assurance standards, which will also protect them from malpractice

* A fourth step is to give talks in support of your bill or referendum where ever possible. Senior groups, medical staffs, church groups, high school assemblies, and labor unions are particularly good sources. Excellent materials including slides, a chart book and videos are available through PNHP.

* A fifth step is to raise money through fund raisers, contributions and benefits held by entertainers. Benefits are particularly useful in bringing out people who you can inform about single payer, universal health care and your efforts.

* A sixth step is to develop media access. The creation of videos that can be shown on local cable access TV stations is very effective. Newspaper articles, letters to the editor, and articles by the press are critical. Radio interviews and radio talk shows are important.

* Getting the public to write and call their state representatives in support of a proposed bill is critical, as is coordinating testimony at a public hearing.

* Because the data about single payer universal health care are so revealing of the problems with corporate America, and because the US citizenry is so concerned and dissatisfied with our health care system these efforts may yield surprisingly positive results and be helpful in establishing the Green Party in the US as a party of the people, by the people and for the people.

We would be happy to help you. Contact us by email at riverbnd@javanet.com, by phone at 860-354-1822, or by mail at 88 Cherniske Road, New Milford, CT 06776

http://cthealth.server101.com/the_case_for...ited_states.htm

What she said!

Arguing Obama's plan won't fix things properly is dishonest, since the Republican Party fights tooth and nail to avoid universal health coverage. Other countries do it, and have better health care systems than we do... No need to reinvent the wheel, look around, incorporate what works, and move on to other issues that need fixing! Staying the course on this issue, as voting Republican would be doing, is simply the wrong thing to do.

Sadly, our insular arrogance on a great many issues precludes many American's abilities to improve from what others have already done.

[HAL 9000 96]

Point is that your statement that this is what America wants isn't true.

"Lucky for the most of us, that is absolutely the opposite of what the American people- not just Gary, want."

Some people want it, some do not. You don't even have a majority (as in 50%+) or "most" that want it.

To make matters worse this breaks down to a political thing. (surprise!!). Most democrats want it and most republicans don't.

So WHY bring up a poll then?

Again, arguing semantics when the data is right in front of you is not the best way of insinuating that what you want is what majorities or pluralities want, either polled (as you bring up, not me) or by virtue of popular sentiment, which seems to fall into as you notice, along political lines for the most part. That should say something about priorities to some voters.

Medicine by bureaucrats is what we have today. More so than any other nation. The farther we get away from what we have today, the better.

Yet its what people that support a ridiculous approach to marketing medicine precisely want.

It is not expected for Obama to fix everything the Republicans have screwed up in our government and in our economy. That still doesn't preclude his attempt to do so when the time comes.

The US government invented bureaucrats. If anyone thinks turning health care over to the government will eleminate them isn't thinking.

The undeniable fact is that no healthcare system has as much red tape as that in the US. No government anywhere in the world - including here in the US - has created a bloated apparatus of bureaucrats interfering with the care for people as has the private insurance industry that we allow to swallow up and waste about a third of every dollar that is supposed to go towards healthcare. You can wiggle all you want but there isn't any argument that we pay by far the most per capita for healthcare while leaving the largest portion of the population without access to proper care. We get the least bang for the buck. Those are the facts that illustrate the inefficiency of this ridiculous excuse for a healthcare system that we have today. Anyone that still believes that the private insurance industry can do a better job is simply in denial.

And I suppose that machine can be fixed. Surprise, surprise, note that Obama isn't pitching a nationalized, socialized, health care plan in his first term...

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

Oh jeez, Steven! We are talking about the US government here! How can you distrust Bush and the reps and then turn around and trust Obama and the dems by an equal measure?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Oh jeez, Steven! We are talking about the US government here! How can you distrust Bush and the reps and then turn around and trust Obama and the dems by an equal measure?

I must of missed that one yesterday.

Well, it's not so much about putting trust in the people who serve us (elected officials) as putting trust in the system that put them in that position to govern. Loving America also means you support our system of government, with all its bumps and bruises, it's still a pretty darn good system...but that's going off on a tangent.

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

Oh jeez, Steven! We are talking about the US government here! How can you distrust Bush and the reps and then turn around and trust Obama and the dems by an equal measure?

I must of missed that one yesterday.

Well, it's not so much about putting trust in the people who serve us (elected officials) as putting trust in the system that put them in that position to govern. Loving America also means you support our system of government, with all its bumps and bruises, it's still a pretty darn good system...but that's going off on a tangent.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

"2. Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.

* Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

* Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960

* Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.

* Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

* Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.

* Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation

3. Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

* Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care"

It is dishonest to suggest there is any value in continuing with our current system of health care. It is dishonest to suggest paying 40% more to keep the system in place is a good idea. Our elected officials enjoy the best health care plan [our tax] money can buy while many times more suffer.

Another article says:

"Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems significantly increase the cost of medical care and health insurance for employers and workers and affect the security of families.

National Health Care Spending

* In 2007, health care spending in the United States reached $2.3 trillion, and was projected to reach $3 trillion in 2011.1 Health care spending is projected to reach $4.2 trillion by 2016.1

* Health care spending is 4.3 times the amount spent on national defense.3

* In 2005, the United States spent 16 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2016.1

* Although nearly 47 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.3

* Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.4"

And as to the impact of our current health care system:

"# In a Wall Street Journal-NBC Survey almost 50 percent of the American public say the cost of health care is their number one economic concern.10

# In a USA Today/ABC News survey, 80 percent of Americans said that they were dissatisfied (60 percent were very dissatisfied) with high national health care spending.11

# Rising health care costs is the top personal pocketbook concern for Democratic voters (45%) and Republicans (35%), well ahead of higher taxes or retirement security.12

# One in four Americans say their family has had a problem paying for medical care during the past year, up 7 percentage points over the past nine years. Nearly 30 percent say someone in their family has delayed medical care in the past year, a new high based on recent polling. Most say the medical condition was at least somewhat serious.

# A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses.13 Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.

# One half of workers in the lowest-compensation jobs and one-half of workers in mid range-compensation jobs either had problems with medical bills in a 12-month period or were paying off accrued debt. One-quarter of workers in higher-compensated positions also reported problems with medical bills or were paying off accrued debt.14"

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

Our health care system is a '70's era Ford Pinto. We may have driven it for years, and it may be near and dear to our heart, but the 400,000 + miles are showing, and it soon won't be able to get us around at all. New rims and satellite radio won't solve the problem. Time for a new ride.

Edited June 18, 2008 by ready4ONE

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

* Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana

If that ain't a wake up call then I don't know what is.

For comparison:

Full name: United States of America

GNI per capita: US $43,740 (World Bank, 2006)

Full name: The Republic of Botswana

GNI per capita: US $5,180 (World Bank, 2006)

[rika60607 215]

I think Obama's plan is wonderful, if it is what is described in this article.

That is a lot like what we used to have in Soviet Union. It worked great!

Nobody is going to ration prescriptions. If you need something which is not covered by your "Medicare-whatever" plan - you can always buy your medicine yourself, instead of getting it for free through your plan. Drug prices for such uncovered medicines will drop dramatically - 'cause not many people will choose to buy them.

If there is no more private insurances - where do you think all the doctors will be going? They'll stay, and you will be able to see them. Why? 'cause if they are not willing to see "Whatever"-plan patients, they will have only 1 or 2 patient a day.

The only thing is - how will doctors pay back their huge education loans... but may be if government takes care of that in exchange for Drs working for lower fees = Drs will be happy too!

Good job, Gary! Very thought provoking.

Sometimes I think you are the biggest liberal around here! You definitely advance the cause!