Palestinians barred from Dead Sea beaches

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Ah Palestinians. They have wasted a lifetime focusing on bullshit. Being next /part of Israel you clowns could have been better than Dubai. But you have let your hatred overcome you, like a virus, and it is now your weakness. tsk tsk tsk

Are you serious ? The money that built the fabulous wonders of Dubai came from oil. You know, oil -- the stuff that Israel doesn't have. Tel Aviv is about as comparable to Dubai as Wichita is to the Emerald City. The best Israel could hope for oil-wise was to somehow force that old Mosul-to-Haifa pipeline to reopen so it could cash in as the middleman and become the New Rotterdam of the Middle East. Oh wait.... that was the plan, wasn't it ? Good ole "Operation Iraqi Liberation" (O.I.L.) was supposed to have the black gold flowing into Israel for FREE... but alas the scheme seems to have failed rather abysmally. Oh well... every cloud has its silver lining -- at least it wasn't Israelis dying by the thousands or spending their hard-earned billions to pay for it. I digress...

Anyway, Palestinians weren't exactly given the chance to "be next/part of Israel." Zionist militias and terror gangs began driving them out before the State of Israel was even established. Some 750,000 Palestinians expelled from their homes in 1947-1948, denied return and refused any compensation, so that Jews might seize their property. The seizure of their property escalated again in 1967, and has continued ever since. The Zionists never intended to allow any significant number of Arab natives to remain in what would become the State of Israel (including the parts of the West Bank that Israel continues to forcibly and illegally annex) because that would threaten their artificially created "Jewish majority." Zionist leaders have admitted this over and over -- shall I post the quotes again ?

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Both sides have done some horrible things to the other. It has gone of for hundreds of years... It is possible that if both sides realized how much they have in common, and suicide bombers, sniping, continued land grabbing and all the other BS would stop.

If you sit in a tent for 60 years demanding the total destruction of another people, you get to have a horrible life. And even if at the beginning others came and put you there, after a few decades, remaining there becomes your issue. Not the worlds.

It is a sickening thing to watch. Neither side is right, or wrong. But for those of us on the outside it would be nice to see some effort to figure out a better future.

[Nasturtium 500]

Yes it is wonderfully productive land -- and it just takes expertise in dryland farming and water conservation to manage it effectively. The native population has been handling the task quite well for millennia, and farmers have come up with ingenious ways to both conserve and get the most use out of their water resources.

The recent troubles with critical water shortages in the area have been caused by two main factors: an increase in the population (not the least of which is the rather sudden importation of some 6 million immigrants from Europe, etc.) which has strained the limited water resources in the area; and secondly but even more destructive: the extremely wasteful practices of many of these immigrants -- including Israeli government-sponsored agricultural endeavors that dump huge amounts of water on non-native species of crops intended for export, but which are totally unsuited for the climate -- corn and watermelon are two prime examples.

This has been one of the main strategic reasons for Israel's seizure of choice parts of the West Bank -- to gain control of the water resources there.

Israel has rights to 70% of the water from the Jordan river, the Sea of Galilee, and then their own sources. Jordan has rights to 30% of the river Jordan. I think that is actually a crappy deal myself, and I totally disagree with the fact that Israel drains up at the headway and is causing the Dead Sea to shrink at an alarming rate, which seems ot be of little concern to the average Jordanian who can't seem to grasp that their entire economy is based on tourism and that the Dead Sea is fast dissappearing (an obvious pet peeve of mine). They are talking about and beginning that stupid canal from the Red Sea to the DS. I think that is a totally horrid idea from an environmental standpoint.

I think both Israelis AND Jordanians (and the US southwest, Dubai, etc) need to grow up and learn that they live in an arid climate and cannot continue to believe that they don't-- irrigating crops, like you said, which do not belong there... in Jordan it's the Ghor valley which is the huge water-sucker along with the resorts. Around Dh's village they can grow watermelons without irrigation which means they could around Jerusalem as well (and pretty much most of Israel)... if they so chose to do that-- of course with reduced yields. They also need to stop trying to look like they live in a tropical paradise. This was always a huge deal to me at home as well (Las Vegas)-- it takes so much water to do tropical landscaping when you could do desert-tropicals and have blooms year-round and use a fraction of the water. Resorts, businesses, and public works suck so much water it is unbelievable.

I know you know how I feel about all of this, but even from my POV there are extreme fallicies from the government (I dislike them, BTW) and the public attitudes and perceptions of things as well as their environmental policies. They are not following the Torah land-use rules either, although as a secular government, why would they? Sigh.

I had heard Monsanto was going to contract out seeds for the Iraqis (nearly as bad as bombing them all up in the first place!) and I had also heard they are getting a foothold in Israel and Lebanon. That's awful. I wonder if the Orthodox Jews know about this yet or even realize they should be against it? Because I'm fairly sure most Americans don't know about it who follow those laws. I haven't seen it be an issue much. That will only further not only damage the ag businesses and people's personal farms, but it will also destroy the land and really end up damaging the Palestineans as well who would have nothing to do with it (the seeds are both GMO which makes them non-kosher, but also sterile and easily cross -- they would contaminate the surrounding farms as they are doing here, and some are bred with their own resistence to insects and weed-killer which is great for a huge commercial farm but it poisons the soil and only that specific type of corn or bean or whatever will grow. They also have patented their DNA so you cannot save seed without fines and lawsuits, and they are very agressive about this. If they were doing this out in the large farming tracts anywhere near small-time farmers, it will cross-contaminate. Not a big deal for the farmer as long as he is buying seed from Monsanto, but a huge deal for anyone attempting to save seed and farm their own food. It's like a genetic blockade.).

Heh, we're running a record. Two agreements in an Israel-Palestinean thread

[Nasturtium 500]

Ah Palestinians. They have wasted a lifetime focusing on bullshit. Being next /part of Israel you clowns could have been better than Dubai. But you have let your hatred overcome you, like a virus, and it is now your weakness. tsk tsk tsk

Are you serious ? The money that built the fabulous wonders of Dubai came from oil. You know, oil -- the stuff that Israel doesn't have.

That's 100% correct. Dubai (UAE), Saudi Arabia, etc-- these are all on the Arabian side. None of the countries in the Levant have oil. You would not believe how many people ask me how much oil does Jordan have or claim that Jordan is a major exporter of oil, or any number of completely asinine statements regarding Jordan and oil.

Map is in french, but it is the best one to show pertroleum regions:

There is a potential in Syria, but as far as know it has never panned out.

[palilover 1]

Ah Palestinians. They have wasted a lifetime focusing on bullshit. Being next /part of Israel you clowns could have been better than Dubai. But you have let your hatred overcome you, like a virus, and it is now your weakness. tsk tsk tsk

Are you serious ? The money that built the fabulous wonders of Dubai came from oil. You know, oil -- the stuff that Israel doesn't have.

That's 100% correct. Dubai (UAE), Saudi Arabia, etc-- these are all on the Arabian side. None of the countries in the Levant have oil. You would not believe how many people ask me how much oil does Jordan have or claim that Jordan is a major exporter of oil, or any number of completely asinine statements regarding Jordan and oil.

Map is in french, but it is the best one to show pertroleum regions:

There is a potential in Syria, but as far as know it has never panned out.

What do you expect? Before the Iraq war, so many Americans thought Iraq was the number one exporter of oil. And they would just take all of their oil and make our gas prices cheaper.

1. Iraq was not the number one oil exporter. It was second to Saudi Arabia I believe.

2. gas prices are not cheaper by any means!!!

[Risto 0]

Some 750,000 Palestinians expelled from their homes in 1947-1948, denied return and refused any compensation,

It’s incorrect. Around 250,000 palestinians were expelled from Israel versus close to

1 000 000 Jews expelled from the arab countries after the creation of Israel.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

The hate against the Jews continues. So sad.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The hate against the Jews continues. So sad.

As does the pathetic attempts to characterise anything and everyone as anti-semitic.

Wonderful.

Same old idiotic baiting.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Moving along in order of appearance....

in that case, why aren't you offering any palestinians your house, or the land you live on? why is it supposed to be up to other arab countries to do this? why doesn't peru offer them a homeland? germany? australia?

Well lets see now..... why is it supposed to be other Arab countries..............hummmmmmmmmmmmmm COULD IT BE

Because they are Arabs. HELLO............ they are not Peruvians............... they are not German................... nor are they Australian, South African, Italian, Japanese.... should I go on..........

OH..... and as for the the thought of offering my house or land to them.... sounds great for about a second, until they find out that I support Israel....

You're mixing up Ethicity and Nationality - not really the same. Thats kinda like saying that Russia has some sort of responsibility to take in all Slavs. Or that Spain is responsible for all Hispanics.

Or indeed that Israel is responsible for all Jews.

Russia does take in all Slavs from the former Soviet republics.

Israel *is* responsible for all Jews.

Israel is responsible for *all* Jews ? Sure didn't stop 'em from immediately detaining Norman Finkelstein (son of Holocaust survivors) upon arrival at Ben-Gurion last month and deporting him with a 10-year ban.

Of course the fact that many Jews in the world don't support the State of Israel, vehemently disagree with its official policies, opposed its creation, and/or refuse to live there -- this is completely irrelevant to Zionists. They continue to push their fantasy that the State of Israel is officially responsible for all Jews and officially represents all Jews (even though more Jews live outside Israel than inside, and many have no intention of ever moving there.) In fact, Zionists like to perpetuate the nonsense that "the State of Israel" is interchangeable with "the Jews," and that criticism of the former somehow equals "hatred" of the latter.

But here are just a *few* of the Jewish organizations that are staunchly opposed to Zionism and/or Israeli government policies toward the Palestinians:

True Torah Jews Against Zionism

Jews For Justice in the Middle East

Jewish Voice for Peace

Not in My Name: Taking Action for a Just Peace in Israel and Palestine

Neturei Karta "Guardians of the City"

Tikkun

The Pilots Group

B'Tselem

Sayeret Matkal

New Profile

Jews Against the Occupation

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

Yesh Gvul

Machsom Watch

Coalition of Women for Just Peace

Birthright Unplugged

Courage to Refuse

Jews for Israeli-Palestinian Peace

Rabbis For Human Rights

Interestingly enough, some of these folks are descended from the "old Jewish families" in Jerusalem -- families that moved to Palestine during Ottoman rule, and who were living in Jerusalem hundreds of years before the arrival of the Zionists. These families were fiercely opposed to the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine by force -- according to them, Judaism mandates that only the return of the Messiah can bring the redemption of the Jewish people and Jewish rule in Palestine. Their descendants (some of whom still live in Jerusalem, and other who have chosen to leave Israel) continue to strongly oppose Zionist ideology and Israel's policies against the Palestinians.

Anyway, by Israel's own official estimate, barely two-thirds of its citizens have Jewish ancestors. This artificial majority only came about because the Zionists drove out as many non-Jews as they could. And despite the Israeli government's continued enticements to persuade Jews around the world to move to Israel, the majority still choose to live outside Israel rather than inside.

By any measure, the U.S. as well as all Western European nations are far more Christian than Israel is Jewish. Yet the U.S. and the Western European countries are all secular nations, do not claim to represent all Christians, and do not have a separate category of rights that only apply to Christians. Israel, unlike the predominantly Christian nations, has an official written policy that one ethnic group must be maintained as the majority of the population. How can Israel claim to be a democracy and yet pursue a policy based on ethnicity ?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

MaWilson, you are right and everything you say is true, does not matter if they are criminals or extremists, Israel takes them in with loving open arms. Just say you are Jewish and you are in like Flynn! FACT and I know many part Jews from other countries pull this stunt and get in to Israel and do just as MaWilson said, it goes on all the time Number 6.

Bwahahhahahaaaaaaa I don't know if you were trying to be funny, but dayum that sure was

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

My argument is that there's no "Palestinian nationality", only ethnicity.

The do have a cultural identity which was shaped by their relationship

with the Jewish people and the State of Israel.

This is another page from the ongoing Zionist campaign to delegitimatize Palestinians as a people -- as if Palestinians only exist because Arabs hate Jews so much that they invented a whole new people just to annoy them. This specious claim is designed not only to justify denying Palestinians a nation, but to deny that their homeland was even taken.

Remember Golda Meir -- "There were no such thing as Palestinians... It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist."

This is a game of semantic deception which completely ignores human history. In fact, it even ignores Jewish history -- the Zionist movement has always claimed that the Jewish people of the world constituted a nation, even long before there was an Israel or any Jewish state.

Well... the Mesopotamians weren't called Iraqis either. The Gauls weren't called French, the Gaels weren't called Irish, the Celts weren't called British. But that doesn't mean these people were not an identifiable nation of people, or had no rights to their property and their homeland.

All Arabs have a specific heritage -- whether it's Saudi, or Algerian, or Lebanese, or Omani, or Iraqi, or Palestinian -- there is no generic Arab race. They may live next door and speak the same language, but Palestinians have a distinct and different culture from Egyptians -- just as Argentines have a distinct and different culture from Bolivians.

The region of Palestine has been known by that name since ancient times. Early Zionists themselves referred to the area as Palestine, and historically, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to anyone who lived in the region of Palestine -- you had Palestinian Muslims, Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Jews.

The Jerusalem newspaper founded in 1932 by Gershon Agron was called The Palestine Post. It wasn't until 1950 that its name was changed to The Jerusalem Post.

Anyway, as their movement to establish a Jewish state in Palestine developed, it was the Zionists who decided they wanted to refer to the Jewish community there (both native and immigrant) as distinct from the rest of the indigenous population (which was of course mostly Arab and mostly Muslim.) Since "Palestinian" was already associated with people actually born in the area, Zionists needed a new term which would not only include the small numbers of native Palestinian Jews, but also the millions of Jewish immigrants they intended to bring from Europe and other parts of the world. As Zionists began to reject the term of "Palestinian" to describe themselves (and later rejecting the term "Palestine" as well) it generally became most commonly used to refer to only the Arabs of the area, both Muslim and Christian. (There still are some Jews who call themselves "Palestinian Jews" -- but these are mostly in the anti-Zionist groups.)

BTW there were no Israelis before 1948. So if I were to use your flawed reasoning, Israelis' cultural identity must have been shaped by their relationship with Palestinians and Palestine.

Edited June 22, 2008 by wife_of_mahmoud

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I mean - what's the point here? That a group of dispossessed, disenfranchised people should remain dispossessed and disenfranchised?

No, I'm not saying that, but a Palestinian state is not the only possible solution.

Make Egypt take back Gaza and Jordan - the West Bank. Problem solved.

The other solution that is often mentioned (and more and more frequently these days) is the one-state solution -- one country for all of its people, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Druze, Baha'i, whatever -- all with equal rights, equal protection under the law, and equal representation in its government.

But Zionists don't want that -- it doesn't fit their racist fantasy of spiriting all the undesireable non-Jews away across the borders and establishing an ethnocracy. Israel's "Palestinian problem" is the mirror image of the Nazis' "Jewish problem," and Zionists have come to a similar conclusion -- that the unwanted segment of the population must somehow disappear.

Oh and all of what is today Israel used to be part of Egypt. So why stop at Gaza -- why not make Egypt take it all back.

Seriously, the only answer to the "problem" is a just, negotiated agreement between the two parties -- the same thing the world community and international law has been demanding for decades.

[mawilson 2,133]

Of course the fact that many Jews in the world don't support the State of Israel, vehemently disagree with its official policies, opposed its creation, and/or refuse to live there -- this is completely irrelevant to Zionists. They continue to push their fantasy that the State of Israel is officially responsible for all Jews and officially represents all Jews (even though more Jews live outside Israel than inside, and many have no intention of ever moving there.) In fact, Zionists like to perpetuate the nonsense that "the State of Israel" is interchangeable with "the Jews," and that criticism of the former somehow equals "hatred" of the latter.

No-one is forcing them to live there, but they do have that option.

As for welcoming criminals with open arms, that's actually true. Many American-Jewish

criminals fled to Israel to escape prosecution in the US. Israel doesn't extradite its

citizens, even to the US.

Filkenstein wasn't trying to immigrate to Israel - he was denied entry as a tourist.

Ironically, if he wanted to become an Israeli citizen, the Law of Return would guarantee

him that right.

[palilover 1]

MaWilson, you are right and everything you say is true, does not matter if they are criminals or extremists, Israel takes them in with loving open arms. Just say you are Jewish and you are in like Flynn! FACT and I know many part Jews from other countries pull this stunt and get in to Israel and do just as MaWilson said, it goes on all the time Number 6.

Bwahahhahahaaaaaaa I don't know if you were trying to be funny, but dayum that sure was

Not too long ago I read something about Ethiopian Jews in Israel. Since they are a minority who believe in Jesus as their savior whereas many of the more Orthodox Jews of Israel do not believe this. As a result, they are persecuted inside Israel because they don't follow the "norm". Sure they live in Israel, but do you really consider living in persecution being welcomed with open arms?

I also read something about a woman who has dual citizenship being hassled at Ben Gurion. She said that they interrogate her everytime, asking her where she went to school growing up in Israel, who the rabbi was there....yet they just do that because they can.

It sure does not sound to me like Israel opens its doors to just anyone.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

No, I'm not saying that, but a Palestinian state is not the only possible solution.

Make Egypt take back Gaza and Jordan - the West Bank. Problem solved.

Problem solved only for Israel. Due to the way current history is shaped, you have to accommodate both sides.

International law has already provided for a Palestinian state in the West Bank *and* Gaza, just as it provided for a Jewish state with the Mandate. But you're advocating turning back the clock to 1947 ? Well okayyyyyyyy if you insist but that would erase the Jewish State and return all the land to its previous owners -- the Palestinians.

Anyway it was interesting that you would say "take back the West Bank," considering how much effort Zionists have spent to try to wrest it away. Maybe there is hope for you after all !

Of course Jordan has already ceded its claim to the West Bank to the Palestinian people, who have been ready and waiting for the last 40 years to officially take back control of their own property. Oh and on your way out, don't even think to leave all that trash behind -- time to sweep up the illegal settlers -- as well as the soldiers -- and send 'em on home.