Palestinians barred from Dead Sea beaches

[mawilson 2,133]

Arguing semantics to characterize a nation of people is not exactly a smart thing to do for that region.

What makes them a "nation of people"? They didn't consider themselves a nation

until they had to unite against a common enemy - the Jews.

Pardon me and with all due respect... are you Palestinian? I'd say not probably. Nevertheless they did consider themselves Palestinians for a bit longer before that point. To the point, given the certain touchiness of that region, discrediting one's sense of nationhood as a people is not really fair is it? Same argument can be applied equally to the Jews.

Not equally.

Arabic-speaking people have lived in what now is called "Palestine" since the

early days of Islam; however, a self-identified "Palestinian people" evolved

only in the last two centuries as a result of European interference and Zionist

settlements.

I mean - what's the point here? That a group of dispossessed, disenfranchised people should remain dispossessed and disenfranchised?

No, I'm not saying that, but a Palestinian state is not the only possible solution.

Make Egypt take back Gaza and Jordan - the West Bank. Problem solved.

Problem solved only for Israel. Due to the way current history is shaped, you have to accommodate both sides.

Why only for Israel? Both sides would get what they want.

Edited June 20, 2008 by mawilson

[HAL 9000 96]

Arguing semantics to characterize a nation of people is not exactly a smart thing to do for that region.

What makes them a "nation of people"? They didn't consider themselves a nation

until they had to unite against a common enemy - the Jews.

Pardon me and with all due respect... are you Palestinian? I'd say not probably. Nevertheless they did consider themselves Palestinians for a bit longer before that point. To the point, given the certain touchiness of that region, discrediting one's sense of nationhood as a people is not really fair is it? Same argument can be applied equally to the Jews.

Not equally.

Arabic-speaking people have lived in what now is called "Palestine" since the

early days of Islam; however, a self-identified "Palestinian people" evolved

only in the last two centuries as a result of European interference and Zionist

settlements.

I mean - what's the point here? That a group of dispossessed, disenfranchised people should remain dispossessed and disenfranchised?

No, I'm not saying that, but a Palestinian state is not the only possible solution.

Make Egypt take back Gaza and Jordan - the West Bank. Problem solved.

Problem solved only for Israel. Due to the way current history is shaped, you have to accommodate both sides.

Why only for Israel? Both sides would get what they want.

The past is what it was and is not in question. Current events dictate that both sides need to be recognizable as viable national entities.

Otherwise I am going to recommend Britain return Malvinas to Argentina since originally, it was Malvinas.

SSDD

[mawilson 2,133]

The past is what it was and is not in question. Current events dictate that both sides need to be recognizable as viable national entities.

Agreed.

[Scott & Lai 12]

The past is what it was and is not in question. Current events dictate that both sides need to be recognizable as viable national entities.

Agreed.

And both sides need to be willing to recognize each other as such, formally and in practice.

Edited June 20, 2008 by Scott & Lai

[HAL 9000 96]

I sure would hope so. Luckily not the entire Palestinian political machine is like Hamas. As is the case with the Israeli side.

[Nasturtium 500]

Hmmm... That's not quite true though is it.

Seriously?

You didn't know that any Jewish person - whether English, Polish or Moroccan - has the right to move to and settle in Israel and gain citizenship?

The Law of Return isn't an automatic right - there is also some debate in Israel over whether or not the law should be changed - due to the importation of immigrant extremists.

Sure it is. If you're Jewish, you can go to Israel. They'll even give you some money to help you out.

i know two families trying to make aliyah now-- both are ethnically Jewish. One is Orthodox and the other has decided Yeshua is messiah. Both are having difficulty, both are meeting resistence, but the latter cannot even admit to their beliefs as they know it will cause them to be denied (as has happened in the past to people we know in common--denial based on religious choice). It is not automatic or easy and certainly isn't a short process.

[mawilson 2,133]

i know two families trying to make aliyah now-- both are ethnically Jewish. One is Orthodox and the other has decided Yeshua is messiah. Both are having difficulty, both are meeting resistence, but the latter cannot even admit to their beliefs as they know it will cause them to be denied (as has happened in the past to people we know in common--denial based on religious choice). It is not automatic or easy and certainly isn't a short process.

Immigration is never easy, but I can't imagine it being all that difficult - after all,

more than a million Jews from Eastern Europe and 100,000 from Ethiopia were

able to do it in the 1990s.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The past is what it was and is not in question. Current events dictate that both sides need to be recognizable as viable national entities.

Agreed.

[Nasturtium 500]

i know two families trying to make aliyah now-- both are ethnically Jewish. One is Orthodox and the other has decided Yeshua is messiah. Both are having difficulty, both are meeting resistence, but the latter cannot even admit to their beliefs as they know it will cause them to be denied (as has happened in the past to people we know in common--denial based on religious choice). It is not automatic or easy and certainly isn't a short process.

Immigration is never easy, but I can't imagine it being all that difficult - after all,

more than a million Jews from Eastern Europe and 100,000 from Ethiopia were

able to do it in the 1990s.

It's changed since the 1990s-- and it's never been particularly friendly to Christian Jews. That's kind of like thinking the USA's immigration has stayed the same since the 1990s .

Edited June 20, 2008 by julianna

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Wow this thread has been busy. Picking up where I left off....

Yes I know you can’t have everyone just leave and the whole thing makes me crazy. I should explain that my mother’s family side is Basque, which is an ethnic group who use to inhabit parts of the north and central Spain and southwestern France. They fight all the time for their homeland, and large numbers of them have left for other parts of the world, due to economic or political reasons. France and Spain refuse to give up the land and of course this means war and life’s lost. For the Basque homeland is now only a dream and we are currently split in two and ruled by France and Spain. Saying this, would I die to have our homeland back HELL NO. This is an amazingly old culture, our language is unrelated to any other language on the planet, our culture is unrelated to any culture, and scientists, though DNA analysis and archeological evidence, have determined that the Basque people have lived in the same area at least since the stone-age. The Basque people have been fighting for their own homeland for a long time and of course with no success. So yes I do understand the conflict, but again nothing is worth bloodshed, as far as I am concern, maybe since my people have lost our homeland many moons ago, I just feel different, and when my mother took me for the first time and she said as we arrived, this is your homeland, I never felt like that, even America to me is just a place I live for the time. The world is my homeland. Just like Ireland, we never seem to get it, Israel has done many bad things, but also some good, do they have the right to take over the land, of course not, but violence has done nothing to change a thing. Sad so very very sad. Why we can't all share our planet, sometimes I wish some aliens would come down and threaten our world than maybe we would come together as a human race for once.

But violence is exactly what changed things in Palestine -- the Zionists used violence and terror to create the State of Israel, at the expense of millions of Palestinians. It also created the situation we're in today, with more violence and terror continuing to be perpetrated on both sides.

BTW large numbers of Palestinians have also been driven out of their homeland, or emigrated due to the hardships there -- there are now more Palestinians living outside rather than inside historic Palestine. But more than 5 million still remain.

As far as Ireland -- well actually it seems “we” finally *did* “get it.” The Irish fought the British invasion and its occupation/colonialization on and off for some 600+ years -- the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is in its infancy in comparison. I don’t want to derail the thread with an extended recounting of The Troubles, but in a nutshell:

After centuries of on-and-off violence, the bloodshed escalated to new heights beginning in the 1960s. Some thirty years later, in 1998, voters in Northern Ireland accepted the Good Friday Peace Agreement. It created a cease-fire and established a shared government. The Republic of Ireland agreed to abandon its territorial claim to the northern counties, and Britain agreed that the citizens of Northern Ireland had the right of self-determination. The Agreement also established an elected assembly, enshrined the promise of human rights, equality and justice, and promoted the Irish language and culture in Northern Ireland. There is still a long way to go, but fair negotiations and the concepts of international law, human rights and justice did much more to stop the violence in Northern Ireland than the previous centuries of armed conflict.

It's not identical to the Palestinian-Israeli situation, but there are many parallels if you look at the history and progression of the conflict. The main point is: both sides must negotiate an agreement or compromise that is acceptable to both sides in order to end the violence. Trying to forcibly impose a unilateral mandate dictated by only one side does not bring peace. International law was created after World War II to give an alternative to endless violence -- not "might equals right," but "morality and justice equals right." Once again, this is the only real solution to this conflict (other than genocide, which reasonable people don't consider in any way to be an acceptible solution.)

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

First you claimed the world looked away. Now you claim that world opinion doesn't matter. As I said before, this is wishful

thinking on your part.

I claim both.

Well you'll claim just about anything, no matter how contradictory, and switch canoes in mid-stream without any embarrassment at all.

Losing one’s homeland is something I do understand, but the Israel conflict is not the only conflict that is going on in this world. Since 1960, many African countries have been devastated by civil wars. Today it is estimated that between 20 and 25 percent of Africa’s people are affected, either directly or indirectly, by ongoing conflict. The widespread unrest has been a major reason the people of Africa have been unable to fully reach their potential. The Israel conflict gets the attention of the world; people all over the world understand that this is a problem. Yet when the Rwandan genocide was attempted to exterminated the Tutsi minority of Towanda, one of the bloodiest period of the Rwandan civil war, where was the news? Nobody gave it much of a thought, why because it is money and race. We chose to care about only certain conflicts in this world, and while genocide is played out in many countries? We don’t care if two African countries go at it, as long as it is only Africans dying, than it is just dandy. Most people have no idea of the genocide in Rwanda, or that even the Basque people ever existed or even lost their homeland, because we hold no money or power. I always will feel pain over the Israel conflict, but the killing isn’t doing a thing to help. The one thing that this has going for it is that it is very public, and even though people might not know all the facts, at least they do know that it is a problem that is happening. But if this was somewhere in south Africa, than most likely no would give a damn about it, you sure would not see if on the American evening news. Most people have no idea that a entire race of people have lost their entire homeland, the Basque have no one to rally for them, most don't even have an idea of the people or that we even exist. Why is that?

Ganja I agree with you...but lets face some other facts here. It's not Palestinians that are getting the attention, it's Israel. If this conflict was going on in another country, it wouldnt get as much media attention as it does now.

Very true, JP. If it wasn't for oil and Israel, the Western world would pretty much ignore the Middle East (just as they did for centuries, right up until about 150 years ago.) Ganja Girl's point about the Rwandan genocide was a classic example of the kind of horrific tragedies that receive little or no attention at all in American media.

Far more attention -- air time, newspaper headlines, etc. -- is paid to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than any other in the world that does not directly involve the United States military. But while Israel's tragedies are splashed all over the headlines and garner an inordinate share of television's international news coverage, the other half of the story -- reporting on the Palestinians' tragedies -- is given considerably less time and prominence.

In fact, mainstream American media as a whole is extremely sympathetic to Israel's side of the story, even to the point of using Israel's preferred terminology and framing to describe the conflict. It's true that most of the corporate owners and chief executive officers of the largest media corporations in the U.S. are adamantly pro-Israel, and their personal support is evident in the slant of the coverage seen by hundreds of millions of Americans. The bias has been studied extensively by organizations such as Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR.)

Context is almost never given for the conflict -- mainstream U.S. coverage has been so overwhelmingly shallow and one-dimensional that most Americans don't even understand who is occupying what. The very word "occupation" is rarely even used. Israeli deaths are actually over-reported while Palestinian deaths are under-reported -- and disturbingly, the gap is widest in reports about children who are killed. Israeli deaths are almost always depicted as innocent victims of Palestinian aggression, while Palestinian deaths are more often portrayed as an “unavoidable” or “necessary” result of conflict.

Illegal Israeli settlements built on confiscated Palestinian land are usually referred to as the more innocuous-sounding "Jewish neighborhoods." Illegal Israeli settlers squatting on that land (who are also heavily armed, much more so than the so-called “Palestinian militants”) are referred to as “Jewish residents.” No context at all.

Then you have the “clashes.” Assaults by the Israeli military using heavy artillery, F-16s, Apache helicopters and tanks versus a few dozen resistance fighters armed with Kalashnikovs and perhaps Molotov cocktails are always referred to as "clashes," which of course gives the impression that these are battles between somewhat equivalent forces. Yet almost all the deaths from these "clashes" are Palestinian.

Israeli assaults are invariably reported as "responses" to Palestinian violence, but Palestinian attacks are never portrayed as a response or retaliation to Israeli violence. The casual viewer is of course left with the impression that Palestinians attack, and Israelis respond. Periods when there are no Israeli deaths are portrayed as "quiet," even though the Israeli military continues to kill and maim Palestinian victims during the same period. If Palestinians return fire, it's called "a shattering of the quiet."

In fact, most American news reports read like press releases from Tel Aviv, often quoting Israeli officials word-for-word (only without the quote marks.) Years of this type of coverage has given most Americans a very distorted idea of what is actually happening.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I'll add my racist 2 cents worth to this thread

It's strange to me that I never see or hear of the Arab world running to the aid of the Palestinians and giving up Arab land for the Palestinians to move onto.

If that would happen IMO Palestinians could possibly live in peace in and amongst the Arab world.

The Israelies can then live amongst themselves and not have to deal with the ongoing issues of:

He said, She said

Who has this land and who has that land

Playing ####### for tat

And the likes of some people on VJ always complaining and blaming the so called Zionists and Israelies for what they do and don't do.

Well then by that logic -- why don't you think it's strange that Euope didn't run to give up European land for the Jews to move onto ? I mean, why don't you ask why the Jews from Germany and Russia and Poland and Lithuania and New York City can't just go back to Europe or America and let the Palestinians live amongst themselves and not have to deal with these "ongoing issues" ? And then you can stop blaming the Arabs for they do and don't do.

Or maybe your comment was a "racist 2 cents worth" after all

Ziologic. LOL.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

in that case, why aren't you offering any palestinians your house, or the land you live on? why is it supposed to be up to other arab countries to do this? why doesn't peru offer them a homeland? germany? australia?

Because they are... uhm... Arabs?

It's like asking "why does Ireland have a law of return that applies to grandchildren of Irish emigrants?" Because the Irish government considers the children and grandchildren of Irish emigrants as Irish? Why doesn't Peru offer them a homeland? Or Germany? Because they are Irish and not Peruvian or German?

Any more stupid questions, ta me go ####?

More logic of the criminally insane -- so... Palestinians should be kicked out of their homeland so that Jews from around the world may illegally seize Palestinian property, and other Arab countries should shoulder the burden created by this criminal act and take the Palestinians in. And although Arab countries should take care of the Palestinians simply because they are Arab, European Jews, etc. should not live in the European-etc. countries of their birth or be taken in by other European-etc. countries, but instead be allowed to illegally confiscate Palestinian property -- even if they have absolutely no tangible connection to the Holy Land and their ancestors never set foot in it.

It's completely crazy. Why should millions of Palestinians be forced to leave their homes and farms and businesses -- property their families have owned for centuries -- so that millions of German Jews, Polish Jews, Lithuanian Jews, Russian Jews, New York Jews and any other Jews in the world can go and squat there ?

Maybe all the British should be kicked out of England so that anyone who claims to be a descendant of the lost city of Atlantis can have it instead.

Ziologic = cuckoo for Cocopuffs

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

even stranger still is why europeans didn't offer european jews european land for the european jews to move onto. if that woulda happened european jews could possibly live in peace in and amongst the europeans.

oh, except for they wouldn't take it even if offered, obsessed as their leaders were in asserting their culture of death.

Shortly after Kristillnacht, David Ben-Gurion, leader of the Zionist movement, stated: "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second-because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people."

-Tom Segev

That was then......... history has long past and water and pleanty of it has run under that bridge. Finished...... Done........ Lets move on now shall we.

Now back to the issue at hand and what is taking place TODAY not what could have happened IF................

Again I state let the Arabs step up to the plate and offer something....... To my recollection none ever have..... I wonder why........

Could it be they don't want them and their ongoing problems they would ultimately bring with to the table. The same problems and issues they have caused Israel and the world. And when I say world I'm talking terrorism

It seems you didn't follow your own line of reasoning far enough to reach its logical conclusion.

Let's see.... the Holocaust is slightly older than the Nakba, and decades older than the 1967 occupation -- so I guess it's even more "long past." So then I guess you would also advise that the Holocaust is "done/finished" and we should just forget about it and "move on" ? Hmmmm... that would kind of put a big dent in all those reparation claims... not to mention a giant hole in entire rationale for establishing the State of Israel.

When exactly is the expiration date on war crimes ?

Imagine if Germany would say "oh all that Nazi stuff is ancient history -- done, finished, let's move on. And let the Jews around the world step up to the plate and offer something." Or if the U.S. suggested that it would be sub-Saharan Africa's responsibility to clean up the enduring mess left by slavery.

Of course Zio-logic says a gang of murdering kleptomaniacs shouldn't have to face justice or repay the victims for their losses -- it should be the victims' relatives or their neighborhood's responsibility to fix the problem.

Oh and by the way -- it was the Zionists who introduced terrorism to Palestine -- and this is what led to the situation that endures 'til today.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I have to back WOM on this (not something either of us would expect in this kind of thread )-- the land IS good-- it's VERY good. It is perfect for year-round agriculture and has the exact climate of Southern California with more rain! The interior is the same as well, just more desert like Riverside county. With a bit of know-how, you can get a ton of food, flowers, or whatever you want out of this land, you just need to understand water and water storage. Temps (part of climate) are good too-- around the Dead Sea area it's fairly hot in the valley... but... overall it's much milder than most of the US for both extremes. Ammar's village is about what, 15? 10? miles from the Israeli border. I know he can plant brassicas, tomatoes, etc year-round which is way better than here in AR.

Yes it is wonderfully productive land -- and it just takes expertise in dryland farming and water conservation to manage it effectively. The native population has been handling the task quite well for millennia, and farmers have come up with ingenious ways to both conserve and get the most use out of their water resources.

The recent troubles with critical water shortages in the area have been caused by two main factors: an increase in the population (not the least of which is the rather sudden importation of some 6 million immigrants from Europe, etc.) which has strained the limited water resources in the area; and secondly but even more destructive: the extremely wasteful practices of many of these immigrants -- including Israeli government-sponsored agricultural endeavors that dump huge amounts of water on non-native species of crops intended for export, but which are totally unsuited for the climate -- corn and watermelon are two prime examples.

This has been one of the main strategic reasons for Israel's seizure of choice parts of the West Bank -- to gain control of the water resources there.