Palestinians barred from Dead Sea beaches

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hmmm... That's not quite true though is it.

Seriously?

You didn't know that any Jewish person - whether English, Polish or Moroccan - has the right to move to and settle in Israel and gain citizenship?

The Law of Return isn't an automatic right - there is also some debate in Israel over whether or not the law should be changed - due to the importation of immigrant extremists.

Sure it is. If you're Jewish, you can go to Israel. They'll even give you some money to help you out.

My point was that there are eligibility restrictions. Its not "automatic"

BTW - the Palestinians also have a Right of Return, I believe.

[mawilson 2,133]

Consider the following scenario:

You're an Englishman living in Anglo-Switzerland (an English speaking country,

culturally very similar to England), surrounded by Anglo-Germany, Anglo-Austria,

Anglo-Italy (all English speaking countries, culturally very similar to England) and

France (the only non-English speaking country in Anglo-Europe, hated by most

Anglo-Europeans.)

Then one day, the French occupy Anglo-Switzerland. All Anglo-countries are

shocked and outraged, yet they do nothing to stop France.

Do you

1) stay in French-occupied Anglo-Switzerland and fight for your land, or

2) move to another country in Anglo-Europe and live happily ever after?

[zqt3344 21]

MaWilson, you are right and everything you say is true, does not matter if they are criminals or extremists, Israel takes them in with loving open arms. Just say you are Jewish and you are in like Flynn! FACT and I know many part Jews from other countries pull this stunt and get in to Israel and do just as MaWilson said, it goes on all the time Number 6.

Hmmm... That's not quite true though is it.

Seriously?

You didn't know that any Jewish person - whether English, Polish or Moroccan - has the right to move to and settle in Israel and gain citizenship?

The Law of Return isn't an automatic right - there is also some debate in Israel over whether or not the law should be changed - due to the importation of immigrant extremists.

Sure it is. If you're Jewish, you can go to Israel. They'll even give you some money to help you out.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Consider the following scenario:

You're an Englishman living in Anglo-Switzerland (an English speaking country,

culturally very similar to England), surrounded by Anglo-Germany, Anglo-Austria,

Anglo-Italy (all English speaking countries, culturally very similar to England) and

France (the only non-English speaking country in Anglo-Europe, hated by most

Anglo-Europeans.)

Then one day, the French occupy Anglo-Switzerland. All Anglo-countries are

shocked and outraged, yet they do nothing to stop France.

Do you

1) stay in French-occupied Anglo-Switzerland and fight for your land, or

2) move to another country in Anglo-Europe and live happily ever after?

As a purely hypothetical scenario we can apply that logic to several relatively recent historical examples where both options have been employed. Not that this would really tell us much because as easy as it is to generalise, ignoring the idiosyncracies of specific examples doesn't really provide us with a great deal of understanding.

My original point was that ethnicity and nationality are separate. For the most part - this is true.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

My original point was that ethnicity and nationality are separate. For the most part - this is true.

The exception to that is when nations are founded on the basis of ethnic identity. If being Jewish was an ethnic identity, then I suppose Israel would be one of the exceptions.

Another exception I can easily think of is Bangladesh. They were part of Pakistan, that was based on religion. They split from Pakistan on the basis of their ethnic identity - being Bangali.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My original point was that ethnicity and nationality are separate. For the most part - this is true.

The exception to that is when nations are founded on the basis of ethnic identity. If being Jewish was an ethnic identity, then I suppose Israel would be one of the exceptions.

Another exception I can easily think of is Bangladesh. They were part of Pakistan, that was based on religion. They split from Pakistan on the basis of their ethnic identity - being Bangali.

Right.

[mawilson 2,133]

My original point was that ethnicity and nationality are separate. For the most part - this is true.

The exception to that is when nations are founded on the basis of ethnic identity. If being Jewish was an ethnic identity, then I suppose Israel would be one of the exceptions.

In that case, what does it mean to be "Palestinian" - ethnicity or nationality?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My original point was that ethnicity and nationality are separate. For the most part - this is true.

The exception to that is when nations are founded on the basis of ethnic identity. If being Jewish was an ethnic identity, then I suppose Israel would be one of the exceptions.

In that case, what does it mean to be "Palestinian" - ethnicity or nationality?

Again - probably both.

The original argument that I responded to was about "Arabs".

[mawilson 2,133]

My original point was that ethnicity and nationality are separate. For the most part - this is true.

The exception to that is when nations are founded on the basis of ethnic identity. If being Jewish was an ethnic identity, then I suppose Israel would be one of the exceptions.

In that case, what does it mean to be "Palestinian" - ethnicity or nationality?

Again - probably both.

The original argument that I responded to was about "Arabs".

My argument is that there's no "Palestinian nationality", only ethnicity.

The do have a cultural identity which was shaped by their relationship

with the Jewish people and the State of Israel.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My original point was that ethnicity and nationality are separate. For the most part - this is true.

The exception to that is when nations are founded on the basis of ethnic identity. If being Jewish was an ethnic identity, then I suppose Israel would be one of the exceptions.

In that case, what does it mean to be "Palestinian" - ethnicity or nationality?

Again - probably both.

The original argument that I responded to was about "Arabs".

My argument is that there's no "Palestinian nationality", only ethnicity.

The do have a cultural identity which was shaped by their relationship

with the Jewish people and the State of Israel.

I thought the argument about a Palestinian State was about recognising them as a nation of people.

[HAL 9000 96]

Arguing semantics to characterize a nation of people is not exactly a smart thing to do for that region.

[mawilson 2,133]

Arguing semantics to characterize a nation of people is not exactly a smart thing to do for that region.

What makes them a "nation of people"? They didn't consider themselves a nation

until they had to unite against a common enemy - the Jews.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Arguing semantics to characterize a nation of people is not exactly a smart thing to do for that region.

What makes them a "nation of people"? They didn't consider themselves a nation

until they had to unite against a common enemy - the Jews.

Well for a start because they live in the area - they have a government/s (of sorts) and they want recognition as a sovereign state.

Leaving aside the complicated history of ownership and sovereignty after WW1, it doesn't negate the right of that people to have some sort of recognised nationality (based on ethnic/cultural lines - as you say).

I mean - what's the point here? That a group of dispossessed, disenfranchised people should remain dispossessed and disenfranchised?

[mawilson 2,133]

I mean - what's the point here? That a group of dispossessed, disenfranchised people should remain dispossessed and disenfranchised?

No, I'm not saying that, but a Palestinian state is not the only possible solution.

Make Egypt take back Gaza and Jordan - the West Bank. Problem solved.

[HAL 9000 96]

Arguing semantics to characterize a nation of people is not exactly a smart thing to do for that region.

What makes them a "nation of people"? They didn't consider themselves a nation

until they had to unite against a common enemy - the Jews.

Pardon me and with all due respect... are you Palestinian? I'd say not probably. Nevertheless they did consider themselves Palestinians for a bit longer before that point. To the point, given the certain touchiness of that region, discrediting one's sense of nationhood as a people is not really fair is it? Same argument can be applied equally to the Jews.

I mean - what's the point here? That a group of dispossessed, disenfranchised people should remain dispossessed and disenfranchised?

No, I'm not saying that, but a Palestinian state is not the only possible solution.

Make Egypt take back Gaza and Jordan - the West Bank. Problem solved.

Problem solved only for Israel. Due to the way current history is shaped, you have to accommodate both sides.