Palestinians barred from Dead Sea beaches

[sereia 0]

and what about kalia beach? is that not in the west bank? ein feshka?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Bearing in mind I am not anti-Palestinean but PLEASE!

"As far as your figure of 1 million Jews "expelled" from Arab countries -- actually a lot of these left voluntarily, thanks to Israel's ongoing offers to give them free transportation, free stolen Palestinian land to squat on, and free assistance to help them get started on wonderful new lives in someone else's home." (quote from WOM)

Many left 'voluntarily' after their synagogues were burned, their lives threatened etc. You do have a lot of knowledge, but it is very one sided. You are quick to call anything pro-Israel 'Zionist' fairy tales, yet weave them yourself regarding Palestine. No small number of such incoming Jews who 'voluntarily' went to Israel did so before Israel was created. To go way back to an earlier statement of mine, Palestineans have their Arab brothers to thank for no small portion of their suffering.

An interesting article, no doubt Zionist propaganda concludes in part:

Accounts of the late 1940s widely assume that the Arab exodus occurred first, followed by the Jewish expulsion. Kirkbride refers to "a decision of the Iraqi government to retaliate for the expulsion of Arab refugees from Palestine by forcing the majority of the Jewish population of Iraq to go to Israel."46 In Libya, too, there is a similar tendency to associate the uprooting of the Jewish community with the establishment of the State of Israel. "Jews," John Wright argues, "were forced out of Libya as a result of events leading up and following the foundation of the State of Israel in May 1948."47

But these accounts oversimplify the actual sequence of events: as we have seen, in a good many cases, Jews were forced out well before the Palestinian exodus. As 'Arif, Sirtawi, and Jiryis acknowledge, the Arab states contributed substantially to the Palestinians' present predicament. A recognition of the full wrong done to the Jews of the Arab countries should put to rest Palestinian claims for restitution by Israel. As Péroncel-Hugoz correctly points out, the Jews "left property and space [they] legitimately owned" in the Middle East.

http://www.meforum.org/article/263

Peace!

You claim you're "not anti-Palestinian" and you follow that with a quote from Middle East Forum ???? Bwahahahhahaaaaaa -- and you said *I* wasn't balanced ?!! LOLOLOLOL

I realize you probably thought your remark about "Zionist propaganda" was pure sarcasm, but it's actually the truth. Let's have a look at who runs your "Middle East Forum":

Daniel Pipes, Director - hardcore neocon Isamophobe, vocal anti-Palestinian propagandist and opponent of a Palestinian state, contributor to Project For a New American Century (PNAC) which promoted the Iraq War and a series of U.S. military actions in the Middle East, and the same extremist who brought us Campus Watch and Islam Watch

Meyrav Wurmser, Director - founder of MEMRI (the Israeli-run organization that offers questionable “translations” of Arab/Muslim articles that might a negative light on Arabs/Muslims) , signatory to A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm (blueprint for the Iraq War, attack on Iran and much more Middle Eastern meddling on behalf of Israel’s right-wing element) member of the nasty neocon nest Hudson Institute, etc. etc.

and of course their gang of "experts":

William Kristol -- neocon warmonger & cheerleader for the Iraq war and Israel's assault on Lebanon, co- founder of PNAC

Martin Kramer - PNACer, supporter of Campus Watch, lobbying for HR 3077 to "reform" Middle East studies in U.S. universities

Joseph Farah - editor-in-chief of WorldNetDaily (need we say more ?)

Again – why don’t you refer to something regarded as actual history rather than Zionist propaganda sites ?

Even Wikipedia (as well as the Jerusalem Post !) state that the vast majority of Jews either fleeing or emigrating from Arab lands left *after* the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. According to both sources, about 850,000 Jews either fled or emigrated from Arab lands beginning in 1948 – and not all of them went to Israel. More than 260,000 of them went to other countries (including in Europe and the U.S.) Wikipedia also confirms my statement that some of these emigrants made their decision due to the specific urging of the Jewish State to take advantage of the opportunities being enthusiastically offered to them in Israel.

It also says that although incidents of violence and discrimination against Jews in Arab lands *began* to increase in the 20th century before 1948 -- (which was of course directly related to the turn of events in Palestine, as the mass Zionist immigration began to gain momentum and Zionists were publicly proclaiming their intention to turn Palestine into a Jewish State) – that these incidents dramatically increased *after* 1948. And it mentions that incidents like the Lavon Affair (where Egyptian Jewish covert agents recruited by Israel bombed U.S., British and Egyptian targets in Cairo in an attempt to influence U.S. policy toward Egypt) only escalated the hostility against the Jewish populations of Arab countries.

Anyway, your author does exactly what I said these Zionists do -- they try to total up individual Jewish property claims in more than a dozen different Arab countries (which happened overwhelmingly *after* the creation of the State of Israel) and then they attempt to use this to rationalize the original crime of driving Palestinians out of their land and refusing to compensate them for it.

This is blatant racism -- as if all Arabs are interchangeable (and as if all Jews are interchangeable.) The idea that Israel’s initial ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people can be somehow cancelled out by another Arab country (which is not Palestinian) subsequently expelling its Jewish population (and whether or not those Jewish victims even move to Israel, that their property claim can be added to the collective Israeli claim) – as if all this somehow relieves Israel of its responsibility toward the Palestinians – this is absurd and outside the realm of any legal or logical rationale. Like I already said in this very thread:

But I guess in the sociopathic reasoning of Zionists, this becomes some kind of "mutual population exchange" -- as if Jews who decided to leave *other* Muslim countries in order to hitch onto the hijacked gravy train in Israel (or even those who actually got kicked out of those countries as a response to Israel's expulsion of the Palestinians) -- as if this somehow retroactively justifies the separate crime of Zionists forcing Palestinians out of their homes in Palestine, and as if it exonerates Israel of its responsibility.

LOL Zio-logic: "Here, I'll kick you out of your property and keep it for myself and my family and friends, and then I'll let some of the neighbors who talk and pray like you have some of my friends' property that we don't even want any more now that we have yours, and we'll call it even -- you can be their problem now." I keep saying it's the logic of the criminally insane It's also incredibly racist to consider all Arabs as somehow interchangeable. I think it's based in Zionists' own view of themselves -- they see the Jewish people as all belonging to the same nation, so they perceive all Arabs as inherently the same nation, too.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The hits just keep on coming! More Zionist propaganda!

Rockets hit Israel, which says truce broken

Police say three Palestinian rockets have hit southern Israel and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office says the cease-fire that took effect last week has been broken.

JERUSALEM —

Police say three Palestinian rockets have hit southern Israel and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office says the cease-fire that took effect last week has been broken.

Islamic Jihad militants in the Gaza Strip says they carried out the attack to avenge an Israeli military raid that killed one of their fighters in the West Bank early Tuesday.

Israel's national rescue service says two people were lightly wounded in the rocket barrage.

The West Bank is not formally part of the truce. But Islamic Jihad says it "cannot keep its hands tied" when its "brothers" in the West Bank are being targeted.

However, the Gaza Strip's ruling Hamas group says it remains committed to the truce.

Israeli troops killed two Palestinians in the West Bank raid.

Copyright © 2008 The Seattle Times Company

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...lestinians.html

Of course... Israel murders two Palestinians in the West Bank, and after that a Palestinian group launches some rockets in response that slightly wound two Israelis. But it's the Palestinians who have "broken the truce."

You seem bound and determined to provide ongoing examples of everything I've said in this thread:

Periods when there are no Israeli deaths are portrayed as "quiet," even though the Israeli military continues to kill and maim Palestinian victims during the same period. If Palestinians return fire, it's called "a shattering of the quiet."

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

As far as "where should Zionists go" -- well I guess they may go to whatever country will have them as long as they do it legally -- just like any other people in the world. There are many Zionists living in various countries -- they don't all live in Israel. There are lots of them who are citizens of places like the U.S. and various European countries.

Or, alternatively, Palestinians can "go to whatever country will have them as long as they do it legally -- just like any other people in the world. There are many [Palestinians] living in various countries -- they don't all live in [Palestine]. There are lots of them who are citizens of places like the U.S. and various European countries."

Oh can they now ? International law says the refugees have the right to return to their property. But in violation of that law and the Geneva Convention, Israel refuses to let them.

Israel also prevents West Bank Palestinians from traveling to Gaza, and prevents most Gaza Palestinians from traveling anywhere at all outside Gaza (Israel has exerted strong pressure on Egypt, via its American friends, to keep the Rafah border closed.) Many Palestinians in Gaza have received full scholarships to study in other countries, or need to travel abroad for urgent medical care, but Israel refuses to issue them travel permits so that they may pass through Israeli-controlled borders. Israel even refused to issue permits to the Gaza scholars who had been awarded the prestigious Fulbright scholarships -- a policy so blatantly outrageous that it actually got attention in the United States, and the U.S. State Department finally started squawking.

Palestinians living in the West Bank can’t even travel *within* their own land freely – under Israel’s illegal occupation, military closures and checkpoints often prevent Palestinians from traveling from one Palestinian village to another just 15 miles away.

LOL @ your post.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Of course... Israel murders two Palestinians in the West Bank, and after that a Palestinian group launches some rockets in response that slightly wound two Israelis. But it's the Palestinians who have "broken the truce."

Um, there is a little issue for you to explain here:

• the rockets were fired from an area ruled by Hamas (and where it has near-cent-percent support)
• the ones killed in West Bank would more-likely have been Fatah-affiliated than Hamas-affiliated (as there is bad-blood between the two groups)
• it would be a little hard (though it might be a brilliant "two-birds-on-one-stone" strategy) for Fatah-affiliates to set up and launch rockets from Gaza strip

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

OK! Yes, there was a misunderstanding. At any rate, we have an awesome tatreez discussion going! So yes--Palestinean tatreez is very recognizable and varies village to village like Jordanian.. and definately you can tell the difference between regional variations/culture/ethnic groups.

I was posting those pics of Jordanian tatreez so we could compare and see how different they are. Basic concept of cross-stich/embroidery is the same in the sense that you can recognize these are related styles... which is to be expected cultural dissemination from close culture groups. Obviously, this is very different from say, traditional French, German, etc embroidery. Jordanians are known for favoring triangular patterns.

A couple of notes-- those headdresses were hatah, traditional Jordanian wear. There are 2 parts-- that top cloth (which is keffiyeh/schmag now, but in the past was also a village-specific piece), and a seperate black "wimple" if you will, which you can somewhat see in the pictures. That wimple tucked into the thobe which was as open as any thobe at the neckline, but was their local solution to covering the neck/modesty. It sometimes can be open at the bottom which would allow for breast feeding. On the top it ties at the upper back of the head (above the lambda suture, do we even have a word for that place? Sigh. language breakdown!). I watched them re-fit Ammar's mother's one time. he said that married women wore the hatah, no one else. So it was sort of a rite of passage marker. It is mostly gone now, as the younger generation are going with hijabs from the market. No one is interested in hatah anymore.

Pic #4 is not actually a Bedouin woman but a regular villager. They were tatooed until recently in various local patterns, and may or may not (depending on the tribe) actually have any Bedouin relation at all.

Do you have any tatreez? Does your Dh have family who makes it? I'd love to see your tatreez if you have any, especially family tatreez.

These are 2 of Ammar's sisters. I had to add hijab to one hope you don't mind. I know she covers her hair. Anyway, you can see the tatreez at the bottom of one's thobe, and then you can see Nadia making more tatreez. She is the main one who does it in the family. She probably made Najah's thobe.

This is the thobe Nadia made that I have. I have some stich close-up, but not the back. I already had these so I'm tossing them up... if you wanted more detail I can go take a pic.

My initial post about Palestinian tatreez was as one example of their distinct and identifiable culture. But I do love this art !

Many of the Bedouin are "regular villagers" now -- they don't all wander around the desert any more.

That's interesting that the women wear (or used to commonly wear) the keffiyeh in your husband's village. I never saw that in Jordan, but then again I didn't spend a lot of time in the villages there -- I was mostly in Amman or large towns, and just cruising through other areas. You hardly ever see women wearing the keffiyeh in Palestine (except for foreign females, or perhaps on very special occasions like a demonstration or something.) But never as everyday wear -- not even the older ladies wear it. It's something men wear.

I have a decent amount of tatreez. (I used to have even more, but I've given a lot away -- it's been toooo popular with my family and friends. ) I have pillow covers, table runners, shawls, various things. I will try to take some pics and post them for you this weekend. Mahmoud's mother and her sisters used to make tatreez as girls, and she also has some pieces her mother gave her. I don't think any of his sisters did it, though -- they're too "modern."

Nowadays, almost all the tatreez sold in Palestinian shops (and the pieces that make their way abroad) are made by women and girls in the refugee camps. There is a man who has a shop I frequent when I'm in Ramallah -- he sells all types of clothing, not just tatreez. He's not really oriented toward the tourist market -- he mostly sells to the locals. Anyway, he showed me his little account book with the names of each woman, and how much each is paid for each item. Most of his stuff come from Qalandia camp (just outside Ramallah.) The camps produce a variety of styles from all over Palestine, because the refugees living there came from various places -- they're not all from one village or region.

It looks like your sister-in-law is very skilled and artistic -- her pieces are beautiful ! I'd love to see closeups of the stitches on the thobe, if you're inclined to post some more pics. The shape of the qabbah is very much like Palestinian tatreez, but the pattern is quite different. I'd love to see a closeup.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Of course... Israel murders two Palestinians in the West Bank, and after that a Palestinian group launches some rockets in response that slightly wound two Israelis. But it's the Palestinians who have "broken the truce."

Um, there is a little issue for you to explain here:

• the rockets were fired from an area ruled by Hamas (and where it has near-cent-percent support)
• the ones killed in West Bank would more-likely have been Fatah-affiliated than Hamas-affiliated (as there is bad-blood between the two groups)
• it would be a little hard (though it might be a brilliant "two-birds-on-one-stone" strategy) for Fatah-affiliates to set up and launch rockets from Gaza strip

PWNED!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Curious, do you believe in the right of Israeli's to have their own country and statehood?

Oops missed this one.

First of all, Israel has never officially defined its borders, so please be specific as to which area you are referring to. There are a lot of different versions, depending on who you ask.

As for me -- I have consistently referred to "Israel" as existing within the internationally accepted borders known as the "Green Line" or the "1967 borders." Country, nation, sovereign state -- whatever you want to call it.

Of course what Israel does *not* have the right to do is forcibly expand its territory by appropriating someone else's land -- it does not have the right to illegally occupy or transfer its illegal settlers into that land, or force indigenous residents off their property.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

and what about kalia beach? is that not in the west bank? ein feshka?

Kalia (Kalya) Beach is part of Kalia, which is an illegal Israeli settlement in the West Bank near Qumran (at the northern end of the Dead Sea.) From the original article:

From Ein Gedi southwards, the beaches on the Dead Sea's western side are in sovereign Israeli territory. But the popular beaches of the northern Dead Sea are Israeli-run and visitors could easily – but erroneously – imagine they are also in Israel rather than in occupied territory. In April this year, the British Advertising Standards Authority required the Israel Ministry of Tourism to alter the wording of an advertisement suggesting that Qumran, close to the northern shore, and the site of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, was in Israel.

This is the first time you've mentioned Ein Feshka, but it is another, smaller Israeli settlement along the Dead Sea, slightly south of Kalia.

If you read the article, you will see that it says that the purpose of preventing Palestinians from going to the beaches is to protect the Dead Sea concession stand businesses run by illegal settlers from this area -- the soldiers says that it would hurt business to see Palestinians there on the beach. And it says the closures are a "frequently imposed ban"..."mainly but not exclusively on weekends and Jewish holidays."

But keep in mind that even at the northern Dead Sea beaches within the West Bank, the Palestinians you saw may not have been from the West Bank at all:

Israel has also been criticised for segregating roads used by Israeli motorists in the West Bank for stated reasons of security. Israeli officials reject claims that this is racial discrimination, partly because Arabs with Israeli citizenship are permitted to use the roads. They also frequent the Dead Sea beaches.

My husband lived in the West Bank all his life before he came to the U.S. He has been to the Dead Sea many times -- he's even been to Ein Gedi. But since 2000 (the Second Intifada) the Israeli military has generally refused to allow West Bank Palestinians to pass through the checkpoints that lead to the Dead Sea beaches -- as my husband says, "No one can go."

Did you ask the Palestinians that you saw where they were from ?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Of course... Israel murders two Palestinians in the West Bank, and after that a Palestinian group launches some rockets in response that slightly wound two Israelis. But it's the Palestinians who have "broken the truce."

Um, there is a little issue for you to explain here:

• the rockets were fired from an area ruled by Hamas (and where it has near-cent-percent support)
• the ones killed in West Bank would more-likely have been Fatah-affiliated than Hamas-affiliated (as there is bad-blood between the two groups)
• it would be a little hard (though it might be a brilliant "two-birds-on-one-stone" strategy) for Fatah-affiliates to set up and launch rockets from Gaza strip

You really don’t know anything about Palestine, do you ?

Not everyone in the West Bank is "Fatah-affiliated;" in fact *most* people there are not “affiliated” at all – not with any group. There is not as much "bad blood" between Fatah and Hamas as you apparently think -- evidenced by their many attempts to form a power-sharing government (but which have all been summarily squelched by the usual meddlers, the U.S. and Israel.) The real troubles between the two groups came after Hamas swept to power in the democratic elections that George W. Bush had loudly insisted they participate in. That’s when the U.S. government apparently decided democratic elections were actually a bad thing, and covertly attempted to back a coup against the elected government, funding and arming Fatah's main strongman/thug in Gaza, Mohammed Dahlan, to do the dirty work to topple Hamas (which of course failed miserably.) The U.S. cornered Mahmoud Abbas between a rock and a hard place, threatening to cut off all aid, unless he went along with the plan and gave Hamas the cold shoulder. So don’t kid yourself too much.

Back to the story -- neither of the two Palestinians murdered in the West Bank were affiliated with Fatah (this is actually mentioned in the report, if you would have read it.) One was a member of Islamic Jihad (which Islamic Jihad has also confirmed.) The other was a student -- the murders took place on campus at a university in Nablus. The Israeli army (which committed the murders) claims both victims were armed. Both had multiple bullet wounds and one had been shot in the head at close range.

And who claimed that “Fatah-affiliates” launched the rockets anyway ? You have constructed a straw-man argument.

I wonder how you (not to mention Israel) would see it if Hamas had attacked Israelis in Egypt. Gee… do you think that would be considered “breaking the truce” ?

Hamas wanted this truce to include the West Bank – it was Israel that refused. Islamic Jihad in Gaza already warned Israel that attacks against its members in the West Bank could jeopardize the truce. As the article mentions, news reporters and observers say these types of actions by Israel have put a strain on cease-fires in the past.

But the Israeli government didn't want this truce at all -- it had to be pressured into it by the United States (which sent the proposal through back-door channels via Jimmy Carter because of course "we don't talk to Hamas") and the international community. So Israel did as it always does – launch attacks of varying bloodiness until it manages to instigate a retaliation from Palestinians, and then use that as its excuse to break any agreement.

What's Israel been up to for the last week ? Read all about it:

UN: Israel violated truce 7 times in one week

UN records 7 incidents of IDF soldiers attempting to drive Palestinian farmers away from border fence by shooting at them. Only one offence marked against Palestinians for firing on Sderot; report does not include most recent rocket fire

Roi Mandel

Since it went into effect last week, at least eight violations of the new ceasefire agreement with Hamas and the Palestinian factions have been recorded, a UN source told Ynet on Thursday. According to the source, seven violations were committed by the IDF, while the Palestinians are responsible for just one.

However the UN report does not include the Qassam fire launched towards the Negev during the day. "It is important that both sides honor the ceasefire, in order for it to be the first constructive step towards a wider and more extensive peace process between the sides," the source said.

Most of the offences committed by the IDF include shots fired by soldiers at Palestinian farmers attempting to reach their land near the border security fence. According to the UN, on June 20 an IDF patrol shot at Palestinian farmers near the fence east of Rafah. The soldiers fired for ten minutes in order to drive the farmers away, but no injuries were reported.

During the evening of the same day a similar incident was recorded, in which IDF forces shot at Palestinian farmers near the Maghazi refugee camp. Soldiers reportedly fired for five minutes, and no injuries were reported. An hour later soldiers fired towards fisherman near the northern Gaza Strip town of Beit Lahiya in an attempt to drive them away.

Early on June 21 Navy forces opened fire in the same area, and later the same morning forces fired towards Palestinians near the Maghazi refugee camp. No injuries were reported in either case.

70-year old Jamil al-Gahoul was injured from IDF fire two days later, when an army patrol opened fire on a group of Palestinians reportedly gathering wood near Beit Lahiya at 7 am.

Only one Palestinian offence

The first violation committed by the Palestinians was recorded a day later, on June 24, when Islamic Jihad fired three rockets at Sderot from the northern Gaza Strip town of Beit Hanoun.

On Wednesday morning IDF forces opened fire towards Palestinian farmers near the southern Gaza Strip town of Khan Younis. An 82-year old man was seriously injured from the fire, which lasted a few minutes.

Regarding the accusations against Israel the IDF stated that no attacks had been carried out in the Gaza Strip during the past few days, but that some incidents had occurred in which IDF soldiers had carried out operations.

Israel and Hamas have accused each other of violating the ceasefire agreement. Following the rocket fire at Sderot, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that the fire constitutes a blatant violation of the truce. Defense Minister Ehud Barak decided that the Gaza border crossings would remain closed following the fire, causing Hamas to accuse Israel of infringement of the agreement.

Hanan Greenberg contributed to this report

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLa...3560972,00.html

[Nasturtium 500]

My initial post about Palestinian tatreez was as one example of their distinct and identifiable culture. But I do love this art !

Many of the Bedouin are "regular villagers" now -- they don't all wander around the desert any more.

That's interesting that the women wear (or used to commonly wear) the keffiyeh in your husband's village. I never saw that in Jordan, but then again I didn't spend a lot of time in the villages there -- I was mostly in Amman or large towns, and just cruising through other areas. You hardly ever see women wearing the keffiyeh in Palestine (except for foreign females, or perhaps on very special occasions like a demonstration or something.) But never as everyday wear -- not even the older ladies wear it. It's something men wear.

I have a decent amount of tatreez. (I used to have even more, but I've given a lot away -- it's been toooo popular with my family and friends. ) I have pillow covers, table runners, shawls, various things. I will try to take some pics and post them for you this weekend. Mahmoud's mother and her sisters used to make tatreez as girls, and she also has some pieces her mother gave her. I don't think any of his sisters did it, though -- they're too "modern."

Nowadays, almost all the tatreez sold in Palestinian shops (and the pieces that make their way abroad) are made by women and girls in the refugee camps. There is a man who has a shop I frequent when I'm in Ramallah -- he sells all types of clothing, not just tatreez. He's not really oriented toward the tourist market -- he mostly sells to the locals. Anyway, he showed me his little account book with the names of each woman, and how much each is paid for each item. Most of his stuff come from Qalandia camp (just outside Ramallah.) The camps produce a variety of styles from all over Palestine, because the refugees living there came from various places -- they're not all from one village or region.

It looks like your sister-in-law is very skilled and artistic -- her pieces are beautiful ! I'd love to see closeups of the stitches on the thobe, if you're inclined to post some more pics. The shape of the qabbah is very much like Palestinian tatreez, but the pattern is quite different. I'd love to see a closeup.

I dont doubt that there is a heavy Bedouin influence or possible decent from the local villagers, but some of it seems to be tradition-absorbtion and cultural dissemination by close contact (like the spread of tatreez). Several of these villages are of the same genetic decent as the "ancient" populations of Byzantium all the way back through Bronze Age.

I have seen several villages which traditionally had women wearing keffiyeh. I am guessing it's some kind of Northern-Jordanian/Southern Syrian tradition (and by Southern Syrian I am speaking of the villages across the Yarmouk Wadi) since I haven't seen it as part of anyone else's traditions either. It seems to be more focused in the Irbid governate. People in Amman seem to have strong feels (and visa versa) that those people from the Irbid area are very different than they are. Then, apparently, my Dh's village is considered the most different of all-- partly because they traditionall "mix" and don't segregate for public events, gatherings, visitation, etc.

That's amazing that Palestineans still do tatreez for market by hand-- in jordan it's mostly machine-done... as far as what's in the markets. Many people don't even have a clue as to how to do it anymore. Only small villagers tend to have an idea, and as you said many girls feel they are "too modern" to do it.

So! I took some back and front close-ups of the stitching.

I didn't get a good focus going on-- it's too dark today with the clouds and the indoor lighting wasn't working. I hope that helps though.

Yeah! Show me your pics when you get them. Did you ever learn to do this? I figured I would learn from Nadia.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Dont know if this was an isolated incident or not.

However, fwiw, an Israeli guy did write me back on this and he had this to say.

"Jews for Jesus are not actually Jewish. The organization was created by Christians as a ploy to drag Jews from Judaism into Christianity. The state of Israel bases a person's Judaism on a person's parents. If either of a person's parents are Jewish, according to Israel, that person is Jewish. This is not so according to Judaism though. According to Judaism, a person's mother must be Jewish for them to be considered Jewish."

It's not an isolated incedent. And what that person fails to expound upon is according to TORAH, only if your FATHER is Jewish can you be considered Jewish. That rule of inheritence was changed by Rabbis in response to persecution including rape. Jews for Jesus though is exactly that-- it seeks to try to trick Jews out of being Torah-observant by giving the trappings of Judaism but nothing more. It's very sad that Christians are on the whole, so entirely misled and have fallen into the prophecy of Daniel 100%.

You got that wrong. You're Jewish only if your mother, not father, is Jewish.

"They sought their genealogical records, but they were no longer available, and so they were banished from the priesthood. Those immigrants could not state which was their father's house or whether they were of the seed of Yisrael. (Ezra 2:62)"

There are nearly 3,000 genealogies in the Torah. ALL are traced through the male line. If a woman's genealogy needs to be traced, then instead of using the definate article in front of the closet male's name-- either her father or husband-- it is left out, and then they continue to trace the male line of her decent. This is how you have two genealogies for Yeshua-- as definate artilces are done in Greek as well- Matthew (Matatyahu) gives Yosef with its definate article and Luke gives Mariam with her indefinate article.

I saw this article today which I thought might help shed some light on your discussion:

Jun 26, 2008 0:46 | Updated Jun 26, 2008 13:10

Messianic Jews to protest 'discrimination'

By MATTHEW WAGNER

A contingent of about 300 Messianic Jews from the US will protest this weekend against what they call Israel's discriminatory immigration policy against Jews who believe that Jesus is the messiah.

The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, an umbrella body for about 80 US congregations, is holding a three-day conference in Jerusalem that starts Thursday.

During the conference a number of issues will be discussed - including the recent public burning by haredim of New Testaments distributed by missionaries in Or Akiva, a bomb attack that seriously wounded the son of well-known Messianic Jew in Ariel and the attempt to disqualify a Messianic Jewish high school girl from this year's International Bible Quiz for Jewish youth.

"We are planning to call on the Israeli government to address the problem of discrimination against Messianic Jews who wish to make aliya," said Rabbi Russ Resnik, executive director of the US-based Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

"Messianic Jews see Israel as the place of our past, from the earliest visit by Abraham to the modern rebirth of the Jewish state. And it is the place of our future, which will culminate in the messiah's return," Resnik said.

"We are avid supporters of Israel in the present, and that's why we brought our conference here. But we are also concerned about recent expressions of violence against Messianic Jews."

Messianic Jews include all people with Jewish ancestry who identify as Jewish but who believe that Jesus is the messiah, Resnik said.

Like Reform Judaism, Messianic Jews recognize both matrilineal and patrilineal descent. Orthodox Judaism recognizes only matrilineal descent.

There are an estimated 12,000 Messianic Jews living in Israel, most of whom made aliya under the Law of Return. There are about a quarter of a million Messianic Jews living in the US.

According to the Law of Return, anyone with a Jewish parent or grandparent is eligible for automatic Israeli citizenship. The law was designed to turn Israel into a safe haven for any Jew in the world who would have suffered persecution under the Nazi regime's Nuremberg racial laws.

In principle, the Law of Return grants automatic citizenship to all descendants of Jews, regardless of religion.

Nevertheless, in 1962 the Supreme Court ruled that Daniel Rufeisen, a Polish Jew who converted to Catholicism and became a Carmelite monk, could not be granted citizenship under the Law of Return. The court based itself on "common sense" criteria, assuming that the average person would agree that Rufeisen was not Jewish.

The Chief Rabbinate argued at the time that Rufeisen should be considered a Jew since according to Halacha a Jew can never repudiate his or her Jewishness.

Since then the Supreme Court has ruled that Messianic Jews whose mothers are Jewish can be denied Israeli citizenship. In contrast, those who are Jewish solely through their fathers cannot be denied citizenship. This is based on an interpretation of a 1970 amendment to the Law of Return.

"An absurd situation is created in which Messianic Jews have to prove they are not Jewish in order to make aliya," said Calev Myers, a Messianic Jewish attorney who specializes in immigration cases. "The Law of Return as envisioned by David Ben-Gurion was originally created to ensure that if you are Jewish enough to die in Auschwitz you are Jewish enough to be granted automatic Israeli citizenship. But that is no longer true."

Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, head of the Ataret Yerushalayim Yeshiva and a leading religious Zionist leader, said Messianic Jews should not be considered Jews.

"It is true that a lot of righteous people were persecuted and murdered by the Nazis," Aviner said. "But that does not make them Jewish."

He said that Messianic Jews living in Israel should be marginalized and distanced from Jewish communities.

"Those people are proselytizers. They should not be allowed to have an influence on Jews who might be too weak to resist," Aviner said.

Resnik admitted that he wanted to spread the word about the "good news of the messiah" among the Jews.

"People need to hear that message. But just because it is such a vital message does not mean that everything goes. Our way is by showing solidarity with the Jewish people, by being part of the people," he said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Of course... Israel murders two Palestinians in the West Bank, and after that a Palestinian group launches some rockets in response that slightly wound two Israelis. But it's the Palestinians who have "broken the truce."

You seem bound and determined to provide ongoing examples of everything I've said in this thread:

Periods when there are no Israeli deaths are portrayed as "quiet," even though the Israeli military continues to kill and maim Palestinian victims during the same period. If Palestinians return fire, it's called "a shattering of the quiet."

Two die in West Bank attack

Israeli forces have killed two Palestinians in an attack on a university building in the West Bank city of Nablus.

One of those killed was a member of the Islamic Jihad militant group.

In this footage Israeli forces can be seen in the city of Nablus, then medics enter the building where the killing happened.

There is no commentary on this clip

To see clip follow this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7470771.stm

Every Palestinian death is not 'murder.' Violations of the cease fire appear to be due to actions by both sides:

Gaza truce 'violated repeatedly'

Children play at the closed border crossing of Karni, 26/06

Israel has closed Gaza's borders and allowed in only a small amount of fuel

A fragile eight-day-old truce between Israel and Palestinian groups in the Gaza Strip appears to have been violated repeatedly by both sides.

A UN source says Israeli troops have opened fire on Palestinian farmers several times, causing injuries. Israel says its forces fired warning shots.

Palestinian militants have also broken the ceasefire, firing rockets and mortars into Israeli territory.

Meanwhile, Israel has kept the Gaza border closed for a third day.

The authorities have allowed fuel into the Gaza Strip, but blocked all other supplies including humanitarian and commercial goods.

Deal under strain

Despite the breaches, the ceasefire is officially holding, correspondents say.

Hamas, the main Palestinian group in Gaza, says it is still committed to the truce.

map

But the rocket attacks and mortar fire have come from other Palestinian groups, such as Islamic Jihad and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which is affiliated to the Fatah faction of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

The BBC's Wyre Davis, in Jerusalem, says it is not clear how much control Hamas has over these other groups.

He says gunfire from the Israelis and continued rocket fire from the Palestinian side are putting the ceasefire under strain.

Israel Radio reported that two mortar rounds landed in an open field on the Israeli side of the border on Friday.

Prior to Friday, four rockets had been fired into Israel by Palestinian militants since the truce was agreed on 19 June.

The militants say they are a response to Israeli violations of the truce.

Fuel delivery

Israel has kept border crossings closed for the third consecutive day in response to the rocket attacks.

An estimated 600,000 litres of industrial fuel will be allowed to pass through the Nahal Oz border terminal for Gaza's only power station, a European Union Official told the Reuters news agency. This will keep the plant running for several days.

The EU funds the deliveries of fuel to the power station.

Israeli officials confirmed the fuel delivery but said other border crossings remained closed.

Gaza's Hamas rulers have called on all groups to respect the ceasefire but say they will not be Israel's "police".

Israel says it will keep the crossings into Gaza closed while rocket attacks continue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7478293.stm

Finally, your entire OP was based on Palestinians not being allowed access to Dead Sea beaches, but another VJ member who was just there indicated he/she saw plenty of Palestinians there... So please understand that your take on things is as one sided as it gets. If you responded to that FACT, I missed it.

Edited June 28, 2008 by ready4ONE

[Nasturtium 500]

Dont know if this was an isolated incident or not.

However, fwiw, an Israeli guy did write me back on this and he had this to say.

"Jews for Jesus are not actually Jewish. The organization was created by Christians as a ploy to drag Jews from Judaism into Christianity. The state of Israel bases a person's Judaism on a person's parents. If either of a person's parents are Jewish, according to Israel, that person is Jewish. This is not so according to Judaism though. According to Judaism, a person's mother must be Jewish for them to be considered Jewish."

It's not an isolated incedent. And what that person fails to expound upon is according to TORAH, only if your FATHER is Jewish can you be considered Jewish. That rule of inheritence was changed by Rabbis in response to persecution including rape. Jews for Jesus though is exactly that-- it seeks to try to trick Jews out of being Torah-observant by giving the trappings of Judaism but nothing more. It's very sad that Christians are on the whole, so entirely misled and have fallen into the prophecy of Daniel 100%.

You got that wrong. You're Jewish only if your mother, not father, is Jewish.

"They sought their genealogical records, but they were no longer available, and so they were banished from the priesthood. Those immigrants could not state which was their father's house or whether they were of the seed of Yisrael. (Ezra 2:62)"

There are nearly 3,000 genealogies in the Torah. ALL are traced through the male line. If a woman's genealogy needs to be traced, then instead of using the definate article in front of the closet male's name-- either her father or husband-- it is left out, and then they continue to trace the male line of her decent. This is how you have two genealogies for Yeshua-- as definate artilces are done in Greek as well- Matthew (Matatyahu) gives Yosef with its definate article and Luke gives Mariam with her indefinate article.

I saw this article today which I thought might help shed some light on your discussion:

Jun 26, 2008 0:46 | Updated Jun 26, 2008 13:10

Messianic Jews to protest 'discrimination'

By MATTHEW WAGNER

A contingent of about 300 Messianic Jews from the US will protest this weekend against what they call Israel's discriminatory immigration policy against Jews who believe that Jesus is the messiah.

The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, an umbrella body for about 80 US congregations, is holding a three-day conference in Jerusalem that starts Thursday.

During the conference a number of issues will be discussed - including the recent public burning by haredim of New Testaments distributed by missionaries in Or Akiva, a bomb attack that seriously wounded the son of well-known Messianic Jew in Ariel and the attempt to disqualify a Messianic Jewish high school girl from this year's International Bible Quiz for Jewish youth.

"We are planning to call on the Israeli government to address the problem of discrimination against Messianic Jews who wish to make aliya," said Rabbi Russ Resnik, executive director of the US-based Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

"Messianic Jews see Israel as the place of our past, from the earliest visit by Abraham to the modern rebirth of the Jewish state. And it is the place of our future, which will culminate in the messiah's return," Resnik said.

"We are avid supporters of Israel in the present, and that's why we brought our conference here. But we are also concerned about recent expressions of violence against Messianic Jews."

Messianic Jews include all people with Jewish ancestry who identify as Jewish but who believe that Jesus is the messiah, Resnik said.

Like Reform Judaism, Messianic Jews recognize both matrilineal and patrilineal descent. Orthodox Judaism recognizes only matrilineal descent.

There are an estimated 12,000 Messianic Jews living in Israel, most of whom made aliya under the Law of Return. There are about a quarter of a million Messianic Jews living in the US.

According to the Law of Return, anyone with a Jewish parent or grandparent is eligible for automatic Israeli citizenship. The law was designed to turn Israel into a safe haven for any Jew in the world who would have suffered persecution under the Nazi regime's Nuremberg racial laws.

In principle, the Law of Return grants automatic citizenship to all descendants of Jews, regardless of religion.

Nevertheless, in 1962 the Supreme Court ruled that Daniel Rufeisen, a Polish Jew who converted to Catholicism and became a Carmelite monk, could not be granted citizenship under the Law of Return. The court based itself on "common sense" criteria, assuming that the average person would agree that Rufeisen was not Jewish.

The Chief Rabbinate argued at the time that Rufeisen should be considered a Jew since according to Halacha a Jew can never repudiate his or her Jewishness.

Since then the Supreme Court has ruled that Messianic Jews whose mothers are Jewish can be denied Israeli citizenship. In contrast, those who are Jewish solely through their fathers cannot be denied citizenship. This is based on an interpretation of a 1970 amendment to the Law of Return.

"An absurd situation is created in which Messianic Jews have to prove they are not Jewish in order to make aliya," said Calev Myers, a Messianic Jewish attorney who specializes in immigration cases. "The Law of Return as envisioned by David Ben-Gurion was originally created to ensure that if you are Jewish enough to die in Auschwitz you are Jewish enough to be granted automatic Israeli citizenship. But that is no longer true."

Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, head of the Ataret Yerushalayim Yeshiva and a leading religious Zionist leader, said Messianic Jews should not be considered Jews.

"It is true that a lot of righteous people were persecuted and murdered by the Nazis," Aviner said. "But that does not make them Jewish."

He said that Messianic Jews living in Israel should be marginalized and distanced from Jewish communities.

"Those people are proselytizers. They should not be allowed to have an influence on Jews who might be too weak to resist," Aviner said.

Resnik admitted that he wanted to spread the word about the "good news of the messiah" among the Jews.

"People need to hear that message. But just because it is such a vital message does not mean that everything goes. Our way is by showing solidarity with the Jewish people, by being part of the people," he said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

I am Jewish by Matrilineal decent. I would be an aliyah FAIL. I think it's interesting that they will accept secular Jews over either Messianic or those who believe in Yeshua (several of us don't particularly like the MJC as they are more or less a regular church group which slaps on a kippah and a tallit and calls it a day--they usually are not Torah observant.)

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Two die in West Bank attack

Israeli forces have killed two Palestinians in an attack on a university building in the West Bank city of Nablus.

One of those killed was a member of the Islamic Jihad militant group.

In this footage Israeli forces can be seen in the city of Nablus, then medics enter the building where the killing happened.

There is no commentary on this clip

To see clip follow this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7470771.stm

Every Palestinian death is not 'murder.

I never said that *every* Palestinian death was a murder. This is another attempt to build a strawman argument. I said *these two deaths* were murders. An Israeli hit team goes into a Palestinian town and murders two people at a university, there is no arrest, no trial, no sentence of death -- it's murder. Are you claiming that this is not an example of murder ? So.... what if a Palestinian hit team went into an Israeli city and assassinated an Israeli official who is part of the occupation -- would you call it murder then ?

' Violations of the cease fire appear to be due to actions by both sides:

Gaza truce 'violated repeatedly'

Children play at the closed border crossing of Karni, 26/06

Israel has closed Gaza's borders and allowed in only a small amount of fuel

A fragile eight-day-old truce between Israel and Palestinian groups in the Gaza Strip appears to have been violated repeatedly by both sides.

A UN source says Israeli troops have opened fire on Palestinian farmers several times, causing injuries. Israel says its forces fired warning shots.

Palestinian militants have also broken the ceasefire, firing rockets and mortars into Israeli territory.

Meanwhile, Israel has kept the Gaza border closed for a third day.

The authorities have allowed fuel into the Gaza Strip, but blocked all other supplies including humanitarian and commercial goods.

Deal under strain

Despite the breaches, the ceasefire is officially holding, correspondents say.

Hamas, the main Palestinian group in Gaza, says it is still committed to the truce.

map

But the rocket attacks and mortar fire have come from other Palestinian groups, such as Islamic Jihad and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which is affiliated to the Fatah faction of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

The BBC's Wyre Davis, in Jerusalem, says it is not clear how much control Hamas has over these other groups.

He says gunfire from the Israelis and continued rocket fire from the Palestinian side are putting the ceasefire under strain.

Israel Radio reported that two mortar rounds landed in an open field on the Israeli side of the border on Friday.

Prior to Friday, four rockets had been fired into Israel by Palestinian militants since the truce was agreed on 19 June.

The militants say they are a response to Israeli violations of the truce.

Fuel delivery

Israel has kept border crossings closed for the third consecutive day in response to the rocket attacks.

An estimated 600,000 litres of industrial fuel will be allowed to pass through the Nahal Oz border terminal for Gaza's only power station, a European Union Official told the Reuters news agency. This will keep the plant running for several days.

The EU funds the deliveries of fuel to the power station.

Israeli officials confirmed the fuel delivery but said other border crossings remained closed.

Gaza's Hamas rulers have called on all groups to respect the ceasefire but say they will not be Israel's "police".

Israel says it will keep the crossings into Gaza closed while rocket attacks continue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7478293.stm

I already posted an article on the UN report, which actually gives the day-by-day timeline of who attacked, and when. You can see who broke the cease fire first, and who drew first blood. The BBC article you quote here paints a picture of seemingly simultaneous fire. But the UN report says Israel violated the cease-fire at least *5* times before the first incident of Palestinians returning fire on the 5th day. You are ducking that fact.

Finally, your entire OP was based on Palestinians not being allowed access to Dead Sea beaches, but another VJ member who was just there indicated he/she saw plenty of Palestinians there... So please understand that your take on things is as one sided as it gets. If you responded to that FACT, I missed it.

You seem to miss a lot.

My "original post" was in fact a news article from the Guardian reporting on the Israeli Human Rights group which is filing a petition to the Israeli Supreme Court -- I posted the article, the author, and gave the link. It wasn't "my take" on things -- *I* didn't write the article. Can you try to address what it states, instead of me personally ?

Now if you're trying to claim that the Guardian itself is "one-sided," well here is a different article on the very same situation from the Jewish Daily Forward:

Petition Fights Roadblocks That Keep Palestinians Away From Dead Sea Beaches

By Nathan Jeffay

Mon. Jun 16, 2008

NO VACATION: A Palestinian car is turned back before reaching the Dead Sea. The closures are prompting questions about security and business interests.

Article tools

Haifa, Israel — For all their bitter disputes, there is at least one matter on which Israelis and Palestinians are in full accord: With a sweltering summer now under way, the time has come to indulge in a beach trip. But even this seemingly uncontroversial pleasure has been dragged into the Middle East conflict.

In a petition submitted to Israel’s Supreme Court last week, civil rights advocates charge that Palestinians are being kept away from the shoreline because Israelis find their presence off-putting.

While a large section of the Dead Sea is within Israel’s internationally recognized, pre-1967 borders, much of the northern section is in the West Bank. As such, it is a traditional destination for Palestinians — and one of the few hangouts that they have tended to share with local Jewish settlers.

A little more than a year ago, however, the Israeli military began operating a roadblock along the route on weekends, holidays and some weekdays, resulting in many Palestinians being turned away.

“Soldiers got on the bus and told us we could not continue and had to turn back,” said bus driver Mohammed Noada, who was hired to take a group of Palestinian schoolchildren to the sea last month. “The children started begging them to spend just 10 minutes on the beach, but nothing helped.”

While the roadblock has been angering Palestinians since its inception, no hard evidence has been brought forward to indicate any motives for its erection other than security. Last week, however, one of Israel’s best-known civil rights groups filed a petition with the High Court, claiming that the roadblock was erected because the presence on beaches of Palestinian bathers discourages Israeli tourism and hits business in the pocket.

This petitioning group, the Jerusalem-based Association for Civil Rights in Israel, believes that the roadblock is “illegal, immoral and a very serious breach of human rights,” spokeswoman Melanie Takefman told the Forward.

Roadblocks, long seen by many Palestinians as a hated symbol of Israeli occupation, have come under the spotlight with increasing intensity in recent months.

In March, following repeated requests by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Israel promised to remove 61 roadblocks. The Jewish state now claims to have met this target and to have removed an additional 19. Yet last month, a United Nations report put the number of roadblocks at 607, an increase of 7% since last September.

This situation of claim and counterclaim leaves Israel under fire from two sides. International diplomats, Palestinians and left-wing Israelis claim that Israel is increasingly restricting freedom of movement for Palestinians. At the same time, the Israeli right is up in arms over reports of roadblocks being dismantled, and warns that this places Israelis in danger.

Nevertheless, until now the arguments have taken place along well-practiced lines — security vs. freedom of movement. The charge that a roadblock is used to regulate market economics is completely new.

This accusation arises from testimony given to the civil rights association by Doron Kardel and Nahman Falasch, respectively a major and a lieutenant, who were on reserve duty when the roadblock on the Dead Sea road was first set up. The reservists allege that the barrier was established at the request of Israeli businessmen who believed that their tourist-related ventures — including privately operated beaches and kiosks — were suffering because the presence of Palestinians was discouraging Israeli bathers.

In his testimony, which formed part of the High Court petition, Kardel recalled a conversation with Yigal Slovik, the colonel who commands the Jordan Valley Brigade. “It was explained [by him] that the reason we set up this checkpoint was that it was harming the income of Jewish settlements on the Dead Sea beaches when Palestinians would come on vacation and sit next to Jewish visitors — in other words, that ‘mixing’ means less income,” Kardel testified.

He added that the commander informed them that although a security motivation could be cited, the businessmen’s request was the actual background of the roadblock.

The military has been tight-lipped on the matter. Responding to an inquiry by the Forward, an army spokeswoman said: “A detailed response will be filed in the state’s response to the suit. Until then, the [israel Defense Forces], as one of the defendants, cannot comment further on the specifics of the case.”

The civil rights association remains firm in its opposition. “We condemn the current sweeping restrictions on Palestinian freedom, and especially this case, which has nothing to do with security but which is motivated by economics,” Takefman said. She added that the Dead Sea roadblock was particularly questionable because “Palestinians are so restricted regarding their movement into Israel, but this case is within the territories.”

Professor Efraim Inbar, director of Bar-Ilan University’s Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, said he “doubted” the truth of the civil rights association’s claims. “The IDF generally acts with concern for security,” he said.

http://www.forward.com/articles/13581/

So...

* An Israeli human rights group confirms the story, and submits a petition to the Supreme Court opposing the policy

* Members of the Israeli military confirm the story

* Various reporters (some of them Jewish) in Israel confirm the story and write articles about it, which are then published in various reputable newspapers (some of them serving the Jewish community)

* An Israeli professor who "doubts the claims" is not denying that Palestinians are barred; he's doubting whether it's intended to protect settlers' concession stand businesses

* The Israeli Supreme Court is to decide the matter -- and they are not questioning whether the closures exist, either -- simply if they are warranted by "military concerns"

I don't know how much more "one-sided" we can get -- this is all from Israel's side. But you still don't want to face it -- simply because it's not what you want to hear.

With all due respect to our VJ member Sereia, who is a very nice, intelligent and reasonable person whom I've known on this board for a couple of years -- this is her very first trip to Israel. She's been there about 2 or 3 weeks now. She was offered a fantastic opportunity that pays many of her expenses, and she is enjoying it very much and looking to experience everything she can. Who wouldn't ?

However, Sereia has said that she is staying in Jerusalem, not the West Bank. She mentions traveling in areas which are under complete Israeli control. She is not yet very familiar with the whole area, or at least entirely sure where places are located geographically. Most importantly, she does not yet understand the complexity of the situation -- that the Palestinians she sees in Jerusalem and on the Israeli-only roads and other West Bank areas that the Israelis declare off-limits to Palestinians from the West Bank -- these Palestinians that she is seeing have Israeli or Jerusalem IDs. The OP article clearly states that Israeli Palestinians *may* use the Israeli-only highways, as well as the Dead Sea beaches.

It's a quite different story for Palestinians with a West Bank ID, who cannot enter these areas.

The OP article, and the one from the Jewish Forward, both quote sources who are certainly *in* Israel as well, and with all due respect to Sereia, I think they have a little more knowledge and experience with the situation than she does yet. She already admitted that she is unsure about things.

And BTW I am also a VJ member, in case you forgot -- and again with all due respect to Sereia, I have much more extensive, first-hand experience "on the ground" in the West Bank as well as in Israel itself. Not to mention my husband spent his whole life there and knows rather more than either of us. But you dismiss all that, because it's not what you want to hear -- you dismiss everything from Israeli reporters, even Jewish newspapers, who quote Israeli soldiers and Israeli civil rights organizations and West Bank Palestinians who experienced the situation.

I have already asked Sereia how she knows that the Palestinians she saw at the Dead Sea were actually from the West Bank. Hopefully she will see the question and answer. (But it prompts the obvious question -- if you could distinguish a West Bank Palestinian from an Israeli Palestinian simply by looking at them -- well why would anyone even need an ID ?) Let us hear how she got to the Dead Sea -- by traveling the roads that West Bank Palestinians must use, or on the highways Israel has constructed throughout the West Bank that only cars with an Israeli license plate may use, and that only passengers with Israeli IDs or foreign passports are permitted to use ? Let us hear if she's driven through the same checkpoints that West Bank Palestinians must travel through to get to the Dead Sea.

I am not at all blaming Sereia for her perceptions or saying she shouldn't post them -- I'm very interested in hearing about her experiences. But the Israeli-Palestinian situation can be very deceptive at first glance, especially to visitors who do not enter the Palestinian areas. If you only use Israeli roads, you may well believe that everyone can ride straight through with the same minimal hassle, because that's what you experience. If you don't go to the other side, you will not see what West Bank Palestinians experience -- you will not even see them at all, because they're almost always at separate checkpoints on separate roads. The only Palestinians you will see traveling on almost all Israeli roads are Israeli Palestinians (what Israel prefers to call Israeli Arabs.)

Now look at your very first post in this thread -- a sweeping stereotype of all Palestinians as some kind of lazy ambitionless would-be terrorists. It was bigotry. Look at how you have waved away fact after fact, source after source, including Jewish/Israeli ones -- instead presenting cut-and-pastes from hardcore Zionist propaganda sites like Daniel Pipes' Middle East Forum. And yet you keep insisting that you're some kind of moderate, and that I am "one-sided."

The FACT is -- the position I have repeatedly supported is that shared by most of the world -- it's been agreed to in writing by the UN, the EU and even the U.S. State Department: that Israel's occupation of the West Bank is illegal, that it should withdraw its soldiers and its illegal settlers back behind the "Green Line," allow the refugees to return to their homes as soon as possible, and then sit down and start negotiating with the Palestinians for a fair and just solution to this conflict. *This* is the mainstream, moderate view.