Palestinians barred from Dead Sea beaches

[Nasturtium 500]

I hope you don't mind, WOM, but I am cutting your pics from your post and reposting them here close to mine for easier comparison

(all photos courtesy of WOM's prior post on June 22)

[Nasturtium 500]

Ok! he's more awake now. This is what he said which is kind of the middle of what I thought and you said. He said that tatreez started in Palestine a couple hundred or more years ago but quickly spread its way out. he said the Palestineans are the most famous for it, but their designs didn't pass as much as the villages developed their own local flavor to it. So the technique is what spread as well as some of the basic ideas of cuff, hem, chest ornamentation. So he agrees with me that it's not just Palestineans or those of that origin who do it or have done it in the past 100+ years.. but he agrees with you in that they started it (now I'm thinking about the Office where they were singing "Ryan started the fire.")

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Ooopsie I accidentally skipped this one:

What is your definition of a Zionist? So what do you suggest they do, in Palestine? Where do they go and live in peace at now? What is the solution?

You are funny, dude.

A Zionist is obviously a follower of Zionism, which is a political ideology that holds that the Jewish people of the world constitute a nation, and that they have a right to a national homeland in historic Palestine -- a right that supercedes the rights of non-Jewish native inhabitants of Palestine. Zionists believe that not only the State of Israel as mandated by the U.N. in 1948 is theirs; they believe that territory reaching well beyond its borders belongs to them as well.

It's important to understand that not all Jews are Zionists -- many in fact are not -- and not all Zionists are Jews. There is a huge faction of so-called "Christian Zionists" in the U.S. Interestingly enough, the first Zionists considered themselves ethnically Jewish, but were also mostly secular -- some were even atheist.

As far as "where should Zionists go" -- well I guess they may go to whatever country will have them as long as they do it legally -- just like any other people in the world. There are many Zionists living in various countries -- they don't all live in Israel. There are lots of them who are citizens of places like the U.S. and various European countries.

Of course if Jewish Zionists want to go and live in Israel, they will be welcomed (as are just about any Jews of the world, except for those “personas non gratas.") Christian Zionists can visit Israel as tourists, etc. and can always donate money -- cash is king ! But they may not immigrate.

You didn’t ask what Zionists should *not* do, but obviously they should not invade other people in order to illegally occupy and confiscate their property, kick the owners out, and build illegal settlements there to house only Jews (well, at least if they want to "live in peace.") But unfortunately that's what Zionism is all about -- this is what they've done and are still doing in the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem. And there lies the root of the conflict.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

"Israel's "Palestinian problem" is the mirror image of the Nazis' "Jewish problem," and Zionists have come to a similar conclusion -- that the unwanted segment of the population must somehow disappear."

Unreal! There is no comparison between the Israeli's at their absolute worst, and the Nazi's. Certainly there is no credible claim that Israeli's have been cremating starved Palistinian's in ovens, gassing them etc. Oh and stealing their gold fillings, and anything else of value from their bodies before doing so...

Don’t try to “embellish” my posts. I never claimed the Israelis were putting Palestinians in ovens and you know it. The comparison is what I clearly stated: that the Zionists (and later the Israeli government) have treated the indigenous Palestinian Arabs as undesirables in a Jewish state -- much as the Nazis treated Jews and others as undesirables in an Aryan state. Both the Nazis and the Zionists (later the State of Israel) had a systematic strategy to remove the "undesirables." That is the comparison I am making.

Now, if ethnic cleansing is cool with you as long as it's just Israelis forcibly driving Palestinians from their homeland rather than Nazis exterminating Jews -- well... all I can say is, your morality is not shared by most of the rest of the world.

"Seriously, the only answer to the "problem" is a just, negotiated agreement between the two parties -- the same thing the world community and international law has been demanding for decades."

A just and negotiated agreement can never be brokered if one side seeks the utter destruction of the other... I feel sympathetic to a degree to both sides. But it seems to me that for a bit too long there has been too much "Israel will be wiped from the earth" coming from the Arab countries in general, and the Palestinian's in particular. The rest of the world community seems to be behind Israel. It would be nice to see Palestinian leaders who truly can work with the Israeli's for the good of both their own two peoples, and the world.

You have to wonder -- what did the Zionists expect, the Welcome Wagon ? They came there to wrest Palestine from its inhabitants by force -- to wipe their nation from the earth, and replace them with Jews from around the world. Why do you think it's evil that some Palestinians might fight to keep their land, yet imply that it's perfectly reasonable for Israelis to fight to take it ?

BTW, the supposed "quote" you paraphrase about "wiping off the earth" which has been attributed to Ahmadinejad – well, he never even said this – it’s a gross mistranslation. What he actually said was, “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.” And he was quoting another Iranian leader -- the Imam he mentions is the Ayatollah Khomeini. Oh and FYI Ahmadinejad isn't Arab and doesn't live in an Arab country.

As far as “wiping off the map” goes, it’s crystal clear who’s being wiped off the map. It ain’t Israel – in fact Israel’s the one doing the wiping.

Yet you are far more outraged because you think someone *said* they wanted to “wipe Israel off the map” than you are about Palestinians *actually* being wiped off the map.

You know, Palestinian leaders have been trying to "work with" the Israelis since at least 1993. Guess who keeps stalling with various excuses and delays to put off sitting down and negotiating a fair solution to this conflict. How many times have Israeli leaders claimed it was “too soon,” “too sensitive,” “too-whatever” to discuss the real issues of this conflict – borders, settlements, refugees, Jersualem ??? And the few times they've been pressured to actually *try* negotiating, they've tried to dictate every single term and condition. And while Israel continues to avoid any kind of reasonable negotiation, Israel continues to drive Palestinians off their land in order to build more illegal settlements in the West Bank, and continues to transfer its own population into that territory. This is all completely illegal, and Israel started it long before there *was* any terrorism, and has continued it ever since. Don’t you understand how this is fueling the conflict ? In fact, it's Israel that is doing everything it can to put off any “final negotiations” until there’s simply nothing left to negotiate.

[mawilson 2,133]

As far as "where should Zionists go" -- well I guess they may go to whatever country will have them as long as they do it legally -- just like any other people in the world. There are many Zionists living in various countries -- they don't all live in Israel. There are lots of them who are citizens of places like the U.S. and various European countries.

Or, alternatively, Palestinians can "go to whatever country will have them as long as they do it legally -- just like any other people in the world. There are many [Palestinians] living in various countries -- they don't all live in [Palestine]. There are lots of them who are citizens of places like the U.S. and various European countries."

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Ah Palestinians. They have wasted a lifetime focusing on bullshit. Being next /part of Israel you clowns could have been better than Dubai. But you have let your hatred overcome you, like a virus, and it is now your weakness. tsk tsk tsk

Are you serious ? The money that built the fabulous wonders of Dubai came from oil. You know, oil -- the stuff that Israel doesn't have. Tel Aviv is about as comparable to Dubai as Wichita is to the Emerald City. The best Israel could hope for oil-wise was to somehow force that old Mosul-to-Haifa pipeline to reopen so it could cash in as the middleman and become the New Rotterdam of the Middle East.

You missed the point. It is not about the oil or what Israel did or did not do. What about Singapore how much oil do they have?? Palestinians have now spent a number of lifetimes battling the imaginary enemy Israel. You cannot go forward and reverse at the same time. You are either doing one thing or another. Palestinians should move to Dubai, like many others from around the world, since they have oil rather than carrying on 24/7 about Israel. Don't you guys want a better life rather than fighting 24/7 and living in poverty???

LOL. *You* are the one who claimed that Palestinians would have a country “better than Dubai” if they would have only done what the Israelis wanted. That's not just way off the mark, it's absurd.

You think Israel has been an "imaginary" enemy to Palestinians ? I guess Palestinians just imagined that Zionists came and ethnically cleansed them from their homeland. I bet they imagined the 4000 Palestinians killed since 2000, too.

You might as well ask why Israelis can’t move to Dubai. Then there would be no Palestinians there to worry about, plus they'd get to live in the Emerald City.

LOL @ your post.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Which country/ies I wonder will want to take in 4 million Palestinian refugees...

As usual the simplicity of the proposed solutions, belies the complexity of the actual problem.

Of course we should know well by now how is it is to solve all the world's problems over the internet

Well I know Lebanon took lots of them in into refugee camps where some sectors ended up becoming breeding grounds for Hezbollah and Hamas militancy... I wonder if maybe reasoning that perhaps this kind of shuffling people around is a potential cause for one side of the animosity towards Isreal. Can't be!

*Hamas* is NOT in Lebanon, it's in Palestine, mostly in Gaza. *Hezbollah* is in Lebanon.

And Hezbollah did not come out of the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon -- Hezbollah is a Lebanese Shi'a movement. The Palestinians are Sunni or Christian.

But you are definitely correct that the creation of the refugees is a huge part of the problem and the animosity toward Israel.

Which country/ies I wonder will want to take in 4 million Palestinian refugees...

One serious complication to this is that two main Palestinian "leaders", Haj-amin Husseini and Yasir Arafat fouled-nest for their people in:

• Jordan--Husseini ordered the 1951 murder of Abdullah I (and almost killed the young Prince Hussein); Arafat tried to take over Jordan in 1970 and was prevented by another evil war-criminal, Zia ul-Haq***, from doing so--Arafat was driven into Lebanon
• Lebanon, Arafat extorted from Lebanese and oppressed them, as PLO was better armed than Lebanese Army. Corroborated by his former ally Walid Jumblatt

***Hussein requested help from Pakistan's then-dictator Yahya Khan against Arafat; Yahya sent Zia, who commanded "Operation Black September"; Zia, a man who looked--and was--evil, would later commit (or order to be committed) war-crimes in Comilla District during 1971's "Operation Searchlight".

As usual, your carefully culled nuggets are suspended in a vacuum, totally devoid of any context and completely disembodied from the progression of the conflict.

[HAL 9000 96]

Thanks for the clarification. I realize I got them bunched together after the Israeli bombing campaigns of a couple of decades ago into Palestinian refugee camps in southern Lebanon.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

"History books cover this kind of stuff -- you might consider reading one."

The problems predate the creation of the state of Israel by a great deal more than its creation in 1948, is all I was saying.

Your attitude is so holier than though, completely failing to admit there are two sides to this story, and perhaps completely failing to realize how let down by the rest of the Arab world the Palestinian people have been.

LOL I told you to read a history book because you claimed that the conflict had been going on for hundreds of years, as well as several other historical errors. If you think being corrected for your glaring mis-statements of fact means someone is being "holier than thou," then you have awfully thin skin.

I have mentioned quite a few events that took place before the creation of Israel in 1948 which all led to "problems." In fact I’ve listed some of them in this very thread -- the initial terror and ethnic cleansing inflicted by attacking Zionists are pretty much at the top of the list.

I’ve also referred to the “two sides” of the story quite a few times. What you actually don't like is that I'm not supporting your preferred Zionist/Israeli side of the story. In fact, that side has been given far more of its share of the spotlight than the Palestinian side -- the Israeli story is the one that's most familiar, and most repeated to the American public.

You're here giving your opinion. I'm giving mine. What's "unbalanced" about that ? I guess even one person telling the other side of the story is "unbalanced," and I ought to get with the program marching for Zionism.

Like the Zionists do, you keep trying to deflect blame for Israel’s mess onto the Arabs, as if it’s somehow the Arabs’ fault or responsibility that Israel drove all these people out of their homes in order to take their land and resources. This is like blaming the Turks for the Nazi atrocities against European Jews – as if Germany should not pay reparations to the victims, and the Turks should make it up to them instead. Makes no sense, and I've already dealt with the question in this very thread.

How many Palestinian's will die should Iran acquire nuclear weapons and launch them at Israel? Or does that matter to you not one whit?

There's no credible evidence that Iran is trying to acquire nuclear weapons. None. You might as well worry about how many Israelis will die if the Canary Islands get nuclear weapons.

Your famous Mr. Arafat came back from a brokered deal and launched another intifada. Again, you fail to see how Palestinian's have kept up their own misery.

(Why is he "my" famous Mr. Arafat ? Is the Butcher of Sabra and Shatila "your" famous Mr. Sharon ?)

Anyway, what "brokered deal" are you talking about -- Camp David ? You seem to think this was a real negotiation, rather than a one-sided list of demands from Israel. Why should the Palestinians *have* to accept whatever Israel unilaterally decides ? In reality, Arafat had no choice but to refuse to sign off on that ####### offer from Barak, which was to essentially offer him 90% of *half* of the West Bank – the half that Israel hadn’t already built illegal settlements on or appropriated for other purposes. I've already gone over this too many times on this site, but here's a linkie for ya:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...p;#entry1568463

Read a book with a balanced point of view!

Oh I see. Only books with “imbalanced” points of view would mention stuff like international law and the Geneva Convention.

I have quoted countless Zionists, countless Jews, and countless Israelis on this board countless times. Pay closer attention. I have cited all sorts of references from the unbalanced Wikipedia to the unbalanced Jerusalem Post to the unbalanced Haaretz to the unbalanced Jewish Virtual Library to the unbalanced Israeli historians like Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe and more.

I guess what you really mean is read and quote a book that agrees with you. Of course. Anything else would be “unbalanced.”

Zio-logic. *snicker*

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

"Driven from their homes

al Nakba 1948-2008

60 Years of Forced Exile" Which is your statement... I simplified, and you attacked me for making '...one of the most ignorant generalizations ever typed out on this site.' Wonder why your posts get attacked so much?

I'm sure you would prefer something like “60 years of incredible joy that they were lucky enough to surrender their homes and property to Israel during its entirely peaceful establishment of a state on the land where they used to live, with no compensation and no intention of ever returning, and living happily ever with the comforting knowledge that it had all gone to a great cause”

You don't want to face it -- hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forcibly driven out of their homes, refused the right to return to them, and their property was appropriated with no compensation. This is a complete and flagrant violation of the most basic of international laws and the Geneva Convention. In other words, my siggy is the truth.

Now in case you forgot what you wrote (which was what I was referring to when I said it was "one of the most ignorant generalization ever typed out on this site") -- here it is again:

If you sit in a tent for 60 years demanding the total destruction of another people, you get to have a horrible life. And even if at the beginning others came and put you there, after a few decades, remaining there becomes your issue. Not the worlds.

So -- you combined a number of ridiculously bigoted stereotypes in order to denigrate some 11 million Palestinian men, women and children into some kind of racist cartoon character of lazy, shiftless, nonproductive self-perpetuating slacker yet would-be genocidal terrorists. I don’t know how you would imagine that such a characterization could be anything but an offensively ignorant generalization, but it was obviously intended to serve as some kind of sneering justification for the crime Israel committed against them.

Try this one instead:

If you invade and oppress another people for 60 years, systematically driving them out of their homeland and appropriating their property and resources, you deserve what you get in response. And even if at the beginning other people perpetrated the initial crime, after a few decades, if you continue to perpetuate the injustice, then any reprisals against you become your issue. Not the victims'.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

i was at the dead sea last weekend and saw plenty of palestinians there hanging out, swimming, and such... *shrug*

ps. not sure if it matters but i was at ein gedi and at kalia beach (which is in the west bank as far as i know...) but if they are getting barred (maybe some get through, some don't? who knows how this crazy system works here) it seemed like everyone was bathing in peace. baruch hashem/hamdulilah

Ein Gedi is not in the West Bank, it's in *Israel* -- it's the northernmost Israeli resort on the Dead Sea. Those Palestinians you saw were citizens of Israel (what Israel likes to call "Israeli Arabs") -- as citizens, they can go to the Israeli areas of the Dead Sea. Palestinians from the West Bank (or Gaza) are not allowed to enter Israel without special permission (which is very difficult to get.)

The article in this thread is about *West Bank* Palestinians who are being prevented from traveling to the *West Bank* part of the Dead Sea by Israeli occupation soldiers, in order to protect the business of *illegal* Israeli settlers who are running concession stands in the *Palestinian* West Bank.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I've had enough of the BS posts for the moment, so I need some diversion -- off to the fun stuff -- tatreez !!!

The people in northern Jordan and southern Syria who are making tatreez are of Palestinian origin. Look at where the refugee camps are:

Of course not every single person of Palestinian descent who is living in Jordan and Syria is a refugee, and not all are still living in the camps. There has always been some movement of populations throughout the area, and of course at one time Palestine was a part of Greater Syria. But most of the Palestinians living in these countries today are refugees or descended from Palestinians driven out before and during the creation of the State of Israel. Syria has close to half a million of them, mostly from the areas of Safad, Haifa, Jaffa and the Galilee.

As you know, Jordan absorbed the bulk of Palestinian refugees -- more than any other country -- and again not all are (or were) living in camps. But this massive influx of Palestinians has dramatically altered Jordan's demographics (as happened in Lebanon as well, although to a lesser extent.) According to most estimates, 60% or more of Jordan's population is of Palestinian descent (however King Abdullah has said it is less -- he claimed 40-45%, and said a study would be conducted to ascertain that.) Either way, there are a LOT of Palestinians there, and it's not at all surprising that you will see lots and lots of tatreez.

I apologize in advance for any misspellings. etc. I'm trying to proofread but I don't have my contacts in as this is sort of the middle of my night and I woke up and couldn't sleep-- I can't actually SEE the computer screen unless I am 4-6 inches away from it because I am really pretty blind

Actually, regular Jordanian-Jordanians make tatreez as well-- such as in my Dh's village. They are not of Palestinean decent (and not in any camps or migrant areas)...

http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/abila/AbilaEthno.html

This is an ethnographer wearing a traditional abaya with tatreez. They can get very elaborate but this is the majority of the design pattern-- around the collar, sleeves and hem. I have one his sisters gave me. Colors as of late are no longer indicitive of anything other than what you picked up a the store. Same with the Schmagh-- red and white used to be the thing, but now with the advent of cheaper, machine-made things black and white makes it way into the population as well. My husband's tribe occupies 7 villages traditionally, and they are the largest Jordanian tribe in the north.

The above picture has an example with their recently traditional headgear... the older traditional headgear is very expensive nowdays-- that was the everyday wear-- which is obviously quite different from the Palestinean tradtional wear-- more Beduin.

I will add that there seems to be 2 forms of dress though in North jordan-- both tatreez and non-tatreez. It;s the same abaya and the traditional "work" abaya has no decoration, which seems fairly practical IMO. Do the Palestineans traditionally always wear tatreez even to farm/work?

Ok, I have in my contacts now and woke up Ammar (middle of his night too) to ask him what that head piece is called-- he says hattah.

So there is one folded up, and I know I saw a pic of one down. i am trying to find it. Did find this on wikipedia:

The tatoos are different than the old women in his village (much more) but everyone had tatoos who was of the older generation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharaibeh

I noticed in reading this wikipedia article that this particular tribe had a similar story as my Dh's as one possibility-- Dh's tribe is documented as coming up from the Hijaz and settling in Northern Jordan about 400 years ago-- there they of course, intermarried with the locals and are now sort of a hybrid of local and non-local genetics.. as well as the fact that they were supposedly of Jewish ancestry back in the Hijaz. So they aren't Palestinean which migrated over some.

Personally, I think we're dealing with an area that is 100 miles or less and that traditions should be common across the board here-- designs will be location-specific, but general costume should be similar. North Jordan is a very close climate to Northern Israel and down through Jerusalem, etc. It's middle and Southern Jordan where the whole double-dress shows up, which is a beduin thing it seems. What i noticed is that tribes from north Jordan seem to have the same thobs as Palestineans but a more similar head dress arrangement as the beduins, with some tatoos tossed in. You figure fashion is always influenced by those with whom you have contact.

(some more north Jordan wear)

As far as the palestinean population, I've heard the following demographic breakdowns for Jordan:

45%-50% Palestinean, 45% Iraqi, 5% actual Jordanians, 5-10% other-- like Egyptians. Jordanians themselves (from the real Jordanians I have spoken to or know of married to other westerners) don't seem that happy about this development and are really wishing the Iraqis would leave and the camps be pushed out-- but that isn't likely to happen. The recent Iraqi influx has apparently done to Jordan what the Euro influx did in Morocco- -drive up their property prices so Jordanians can no longer afford housing in places like Amman. The Palestineans inside camps have a bad reputation for being crude, crass, and starting crimes/gangs... although the ones OUTSIDE the camps don't seem to catch the same flack. It somewhat reminded me of our own social stigma placed on, for example, African Americans who live outside a "ghetto" versus those from inner city areas or "ghettos." Of course they also talk about themselves and the other villages... so it's across the board

OK I think there has been a huge misunderstanding between what I’m talking about and what you're talking about.

I am referring to what is commonly known as traditional Palestinian tatreez. I am not trying to say that the general concept of embroidered styles that are specific to a certain region is a unique Palestinian phenomenon -- lots of regions all over the world have their own traditional styles, distinct to their culture. What I'm trying to explain is that traditional Palestinian tatreez is unique and distinguishable from the embroidered clothing specific to other regions, even in Jordan (except of course for that made by Jordanians of Palestinian heritage, or made by Jordanians as a copy of Palestinian style.)

"Tatreez" is the Arabic word for “needlework” or “embroidery.” Of course many Arabs (as well as people around the world) do needlework, and make clothing with embroidered decoration. But the word "tatreez" has become closely associated with the traditional embroidery of Palestine – when you hear the word “tatreez,” it almost always means specifically the Palestinian type.

Traditional Palestinian tatreez is easily recognizable for several characteristics that, combined together, create a form that is distinct from that originating from the Jordanian or Syrian traditions. Once you become familiar with it, it's unmistakable. The patterns and motifs of the designs, the color schemes, the styles and cuts of the dresses (thobes) and the predominant use of the cross-stitch (along with the couch-stitch and satin-stitch) are all recognizable features.

Now it is certainly possible (actually even likely) that Palestinian patterns may have been one of the inspirations for other peoples in Jordan to create something kind of similar. From the limited stuff I’ve read about Jordanian clothing, the Palestinian influence began in the 1920s. So I tend to suspect that there are other, older traditions that also inspire the Jordanian designs – obviously a lot of Bedouin influence, as well as Syrian. The dresses in the pics you posted look for the most part very different than traditional Palestinian tatreez, but I don't know if those designs originate in Jordan or elsewhere.

Also, the headdresses in the pics you posted are nothing like the tall headdress (shatweh or sha'weh) I mentioned as unique to Palestine -- these were distinctive of women in the Bethlehem area up into the 20th century. The shatweh is built on a conical "hat" with a flat top which anchors the long scarf. It was actually a lingering reminder of Crusader presence in Palestine -- take a look at 12th and 13th century ladies' fashions from Europe and you will see the inspiration.

Pic #1 – this is not Palestinian tatreez. The style of this embroidered dress is popular all over the Middle East -- I’ve seen things like it sold in shops in Palestine. It has embroidery on the sleeves and chest area as does Palestinian tatreez, but the pattern is done in a totally different style and stitch.

#2 – (I assume you mean the woman on the right.) This dress is getting a bit closer to Palestinian style -- it uses cross-stitch, and has a qabbah (chest-panel) that is reminiscent of Palestinian tatreez, but it is still different. Notice the almost minimalist qabbah on the Jordanian dress. Palestinian tatreez features a qabbah that is more prominent and much more elaborate. And notice the color scheme on the Jordanian dress. Palestinian tatreez almost always uses a lot of red in the color palette for clothing (along with purple, yellow and dark blue.)

The red-and-white shmagh or keffiyeh is worn all over the Levant and even in the Gulf – it is very popular not only in Jordan, but in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Saudi and more.

#3 – I've never seen this type of headdress worn by Palestinian women

#4 – This is a Bedouin woman. The chin and face tattoos are a very old Bedouin tradition -- you see them in older women across the Middle East wherever Bedouins are – including Palestine. Tattooing the face was a fairly common custom for Bedouin girls up until maybe 60 or 70 years ago. The woman in this pic is wearing the black-and-white keffiyeh which has become so associated with Palestine (mostly because Arafat was almost never seen without one) but it is actually also very popular in several countries in the Middle East. The one in the pic is the tighter houndstooth pattern – Arafat always worn the looser pattern, and made it into an icon.

#5 – now these dresses are much more similar to Palestinian tatreez. As you can see, they use a lot of the familiar red, and the patterns look very much like the Palestinian style – it looks like there has been a strong influence from Palestinian design. However, the qabbah is a quite different shape and style, and some of the treatment on the sleeves and hem is rather unusual -- different than what you would normally see in Palestine. I would like to see a closer view of the stitchwork. The headdresses are a style that you do not see in Palestine.

As far as wearing tatreez -- it's still very common, but it’s usually the older ladies that you see in the traditional dresses -- especially women from the villages or rural areas (even if they now live in the city) – and yes, it’s their everyday-wear. Work, shop, whatever. It's almost always something they hand-made themselves, or a family member made it. Tatreez dresses and shawls are the most common items.

Upper-class urban women and the younger women tend to wear tatreez more as a *very* special-occasion dress (if at all) -- for a cultural event, for instance. More often, they're dressed in more modern-looking ready-to-wear clothes -- a lot of it is like what you'd see on young women in Amman -- stylish abayas, long tunics with jeans, etc.

Tatreez is a cultural treasure, and Palestinians have made a concentrated effort to preserve it for future generations. There are museums that collect and display examples from the various regions of Palestine, and there are schools in most of the refugee camps that teach girls and women how to make it and other traditional Palestinian crafts, which not only preserves tatreez as a living art, but also helps them create salable products to supplement their incomes -- a full, elaborately embroidered dress can sell to wholesalers for $100 or more (and by the time it gets to a retailer in other countries, $400 or more.) And Palestinians often use/display household items made of tatreez in their homes -- tablerunners or pillow cases or wall hangings.

Here are some excellent links explaining more about Palestinian tatreez:

http://www.thisweekinpalestine.com/i109/pd...ay-109-2007.pdf

http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/oimp25.pdf

[zqt3344 21]

Curious, do you believe in the right of Israeli's to have their own country and statehood?

I've had enough of the BS posts for the moment, so I need some diversion -- off to the fun stuff -- tatreez !!!

The people in northern Jordan and southern Syria who are making tatreez are of Palestinian origin. Look at where the refugee camps are:

Of course not every single person of Palestinian descent who is living in Jordan and Syria is a refugee, and not all are still living in the camps. There has always been some movement of populations throughout the area, and of course at one time Palestine was a part of Greater Syria. But most of the Palestinians living in these countries today are refugees or descended from Palestinians driven out before and during the creation of the State of Israel. Syria has close to half a million of them, mostly from the areas of Safad, Haifa, Jaffa and the Galilee.

As you know, Jordan absorbed the bulk of Palestinian refugees -- more than any other country -- and again not all are (or were) living in camps. But this massive influx of Palestinians has dramatically altered Jordan's demographics (as happened in Lebanon as well, although to a lesser extent.) According to most estimates, 60% or more of Jordan's population is of Palestinian descent (however King Abdullah has said it is less -- he claimed 40-45%, and said a study would be conducted to ascertain that.) Either way, there are a LOT of Palestinians there, and it's not at all surprising that you will see lots and lots of tatreez.

I apologize in advance for any misspellings. etc. I'm trying to proofread but I don't have my contacts in as this is sort of the middle of my night and I woke up and couldn't sleep-- I can't actually SEE the computer screen unless I am 4-6 inches away from it because I am really pretty blind

Actually, regular Jordanian-Jordanians make tatreez as well-- such as in my Dh's village. They are not of Palestinean decent (and not in any camps or migrant areas)...

http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/abila/AbilaEthno.html

This is an ethnographer wearing a traditional abaya with tatreez. They can get very elaborate but this is the majority of the design pattern-- around the collar, sleeves and hem. I have one his sisters gave me. Colors as of late are no longer indicitive of anything other than what you picked up a the store. Same with the Schmagh-- red and white used to be the thing, but now with the advent of cheaper, machine-made things black and white makes it way into the population as well. My husband's tribe occupies 7 villages traditionally, and they are the largest Jordanian tribe in the north.

The above picture has an example with their recently traditional headgear... the older traditional headgear is very expensive nowdays-- that was the everyday wear-- which is obviously quite different from the Palestinean tradtional wear-- more Beduin.

I will add that there seems to be 2 forms of dress though in North jordan-- both tatreez and non-tatreez. It;s the same abaya and the traditional "work" abaya has no decoration, which seems fairly practical IMO. Do the Palestineans traditionally always wear tatreez even to farm/work?

Ok, I have in my contacts now and woke up Ammar (middle of his night too) to ask him what that head piece is called-- he says hattah.

So there is one folded up, and I know I saw a pic of one down. i am trying to find it. Did find this on wikipedia:

The tatoos are different than the old women in his village (much more) but everyone had tatoos who was of the older generation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharaibeh

I noticed in reading this wikipedia article that this particular tribe had a similar story as my Dh's as one possibility-- Dh's tribe is documented as coming up from the Hijaz and settling in Northern Jordan about 400 years ago-- there they of course, intermarried with the locals and are now sort of a hybrid of local and non-local genetics.. as well as the fact that they were supposedly of Jewish ancestry back in the Hijaz. So they aren't Palestinean which migrated over some.

Personally, I think we're dealing with an area that is 100 miles or less and that traditions should be common across the board here-- designs will be location-specific, but general costume should be similar. North Jordan is a very close climate to Northern Israel and down through Jerusalem, etc. It's middle and Southern Jordan where the whole double-dress shows up, which is a beduin thing it seems. What i noticed is that tribes from north Jordan seem to have the same thobs as Palestineans but a more similar head dress arrangement as the beduins, with some tatoos tossed in. You figure fashion is always influenced by those with whom you have contact.

(some more north Jordan wear)

As far as the palestinean population, I've heard the following demographic breakdowns for Jordan:

45%-50% Palestinean, 45% Iraqi, 5% actual Jordanians, 5-10% other-- like Egyptians. Jordanians themselves (from the real Jordanians I have spoken to or know of married to other westerners) don't seem that happy about this development and are really wishing the Iraqis would leave and the camps be pushed out-- but that isn't likely to happen. The recent Iraqi influx has apparently done to Jordan what the Euro influx did in Morocco- -drive up their property prices so Jordanians can no longer afford housing in places like Amman. The Palestineans inside camps have a bad reputation for being crude, crass, and starting crimes/gangs... although the ones OUTSIDE the camps don't seem to catch the same flack. It somewhat reminded me of our own social stigma placed on, for example, African Americans who live outside a "ghetto" versus those from inner city areas or "ghettos." Of course they also talk about themselves and the other villages... so it's across the board

OK I think there has been a huge misunderstanding between what I’m talking about and what you're talking about.

I am referring to what is commonly known as traditional Palestinian tatreez. I am not trying to say that the general concept of embroidered styles that are specific to a certain region is a unique Palestinian phenomenon -- lots of regions all over the world have their own traditional styles, distinct to their culture. What I'm trying to explain is that traditional Palestinian tatreez is unique and distinguishable from the embroidered clothing specific to other regions, even in Jordan (except of course for that made by Jordanians of Palestinian heritage, or made by Jordanians as a copy of Palestinian style.)

"Tatreez" is the Arabic word for “needlework” or “embroidery.” Of course many Arabs (as well as people around the world) do needlework, and make clothing with embroidered decoration. But the word "tatreez" has become closely associated with the traditional embroidery of Palestine – when you hear the word “tatreez,” it almost always means specifically the Palestinian type.

Traditional Palestinian tatreez is easily recognizable for several characteristics that, combined together, create a form that is distinct from that originating from the Jordanian or Syrian traditions. Once you become familiar with it, it's unmistakable. The patterns and motifs of the designs, the color schemes, the styles and cuts of the dresses (thobes) and the predominant use of the cross-stitch (along with the couch-stitch and satin-stitch) are all recognizable features.

Now it is certainly possible (actually even likely) that Palestinian patterns may have been one of the inspirations for other peoples in Jordan to create something kind of similar. From the limited stuff I’ve read about Jordanian clothing, the Palestinian influence began in the 1920s. So I tend to suspect that there are other, older traditions that also inspire the Jordanian designs – obviously a lot of Bedouin influence, as well as Syrian. The dresses in the pics you posted look for the most part very different than traditional Palestinian tatreez, but I don't know if those designs originate in Jordan or elsewhere.

Also, the headdresses in the pics you posted are nothing like the tall headdress (shatweh or sha'weh) I mentioned as unique to Palestine -- these were distinctive of women in the Bethlehem area up into the 20th century. The shatweh is built on a conical "hat" with a flat top which anchors the long scarf. It was actually a lingering reminder of Crusader presence in Palestine -- take a look at 12th and 13th century ladies' fashions from Europe and you will see the inspiration.

Pic #1 – this is not Palestinian tatreez. The style of this embroidered dress is popular all over the Middle East -- I’ve seen things like it sold in shops in Palestine. It has embroidery on the sleeves and chest area as does Palestinian tatreez, but the pattern is done in a totally different style and stitch.

#2 – (I assume you mean the woman on the right.) This dress is getting a bit closer to Palestinian style -- it uses cross-stitch, and has a qabbah (chest-panel) that is reminiscent of Palestinian tatreez, but it is still different. Notice the almost minimalist qabbah on the Jordanian dress. Palestinian tatreez features a qabbah that is more prominent and much more elaborate. And notice the color scheme on the Jordanian dress. Palestinian tatreez almost always uses a lot of red in the color palette for clothing (along with purple, yellow and dark blue.)

The red-and-white shmagh or keffiyeh is worn all over the Levant and even in the Gulf – it is very popular not only in Jordan, but in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Saudi and more.

#3 – I've never seen this type of headdress worn by Palestinian women

#4 – This is a Bedouin woman. The chin and face tattoos are a very old Bedouin tradition -- you see them in older women across the Middle East wherever Bedouins are – including Palestine. Tattooing the face was a fairly common custom for Bedouin girls up until maybe 60 or 70 years ago. The woman in this pic is wearing the black-and-white keffiyeh which has become so associated with Palestine (mostly because Arafat was almost never seen without one) but it is actually also very popular in several countries in the Middle East. The one in the pic is the tighter houndstooth pattern – Arafat always worn the looser pattern, and made it into an icon.

#5 – now these dresses are much more similar to Palestinian tatreez. As you can see, they use a lot of the familiar red, and the patterns look very much like the Palestinian style – it looks like there has been a strong influence from Palestinian design. However, the qabbah is a quite different shape and style, and some of the treatment on the sleeves and hem is rather unusual -- different than what you would normally see in Palestine. I would like to see a closer view of the stitchwork. The headdresses are a style that you do not see in Palestine.

As far as wearing tatreez -- it's still very common, but it’s usually the older ladies that you see in the traditional dresses -- especially women from the villages or rural areas (even if they now live in the city) – and yes, it’s their everyday-wear. Work, shop, whatever. It's almost always something they hand-made themselves, or a family member made it. Tatreez dresses and shawls are the most common items.

Upper-class urban women and the younger women tend to wear tatreez more as a *very* special-occasion dress (if at all) -- for a cultural event, for instance. More often, they're dressed in more modern-looking ready-to-wear clothes -- a lot of it is like what you'd see on young women in Amman -- stylish abayas, long tunics with jeans, etc.

Tatreez is a cultural treasure, and Palestinians have made a concentrated effort to preserve it for future generations. There are museums that collect and display examples from the various regions of Palestine, and there are schools in most of the refugee camps that teach girls and women how to make it and other traditional Palestinian crafts, which not only preserves tatreez as a living art, but also helps them create salable products to supplement their incomes -- a full, elaborately embroidered dress can sell to wholesalers for $100 or more (and by the time it gets to a retailer in other countries, $400 or more.) And Palestinians often use/display household items made of tatreez in their homes -- tablerunners or pillow cases or wall hangings.

Here are some excellent links explaining more about Palestinian tatreez:

http://www.thisweekinpalestine.com/i109/pd...ay-109-2007.pdf

http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/oimp25.pdf

[Nasturtium 500]

Curious, do you believe in the right of Israeli's to have their own country and statehood?

Which one, WOM or me? You quoted both of us.

[Nasturtium 500]

I've had enough of the BS posts for the moment, so I need some diversion -- off to the fun stuff -- tatreez !!!

OK I think there has been a huge misunderstanding between what I’m talking about and what you're talking about.

I am referring to what is commonly known as traditional Palestinian tatreez. I am not trying to say that the general concept of embroidered styles that are specific to a certain region is a unique Palestinian phenomenon -- lots of regions all over the world have their own traditional styles, distinct to their culture. What I'm trying to explain is that traditional Palestinian tatreez is unique and distinguishable from the embroidered clothing specific to other regions, even in Jordan (except of course for that made by Jordanians of Palestinian heritage, or made by Jordanians as a copy of Palestinian style.)

"Tatreez" is the Arabic word for “needlework” or “embroidery.” Of course many Arabs (as well as people around the world) do needlework, and make clothing with embroidered decoration. But the word "tatreez" has become closely associated with the traditional embroidery of Palestine – when you hear the word “tatreez,” it almost always means specifically the Palestinian type.

Traditional Palestinian tatreez is easily recognizable for several characteristics that, combined together, create a form that is distinct from that originating from the Jordanian or Syrian traditions. Once you become familiar with it, it's unmistakable. The patterns and motifs of the designs, the color schemes, the styles and cuts of the dresses (thobes) and the predominant use of the cross-stitch (along with the couch-stitch and satin-stitch) are all recognizable features.

Now it is certainly possible (actually even likely) that Palestinian patterns may have been one of the inspirations for other peoples in Jordan to create something kind of similar. From the limited stuff I’ve read about Jordanian clothing, the Palestinian influence began in the 1920s. So I tend to suspect that there are other, older traditions that also inspire the Jordanian designs – obviously a lot of Bedouin influence, as well as Syrian. The dresses in the pics you posted look for the most part very different than traditional Palestinian tatreez, but I don't know if those designs originate in Jordan or elsewhere.

Also, the headdresses in the pics you posted are nothing like the tall headdress (shatweh or sha'weh) I mentioned as unique to Palestine -- these were distinctive of women in the Bethlehem area up into the 20th century. The shatweh is built on a conical "hat" with a flat top which anchors the long scarf. It was actually a lingering reminder of Crusader presence in Palestine -- take a look at 12th and 13th century ladies' fashions from Europe and you will see the inspiration.

Pic #1 – this is not Palestinian tatreez. The style of this embroidered dress is popular all over the Middle East -- I’ve seen things like it sold in shops in Palestine. It has embroidery on the sleeves and chest area as does Palestinian tatreez, but the pattern is done in a totally different style and stitch.

#2 – (I assume you mean the woman on the right.) This dress is getting a bit closer to Palestinian style -- it uses cross-stitch, and has a qabbah (chest-panel) that is reminiscent of Palestinian tatreez, but it is still different. Notice the almost minimalist qabbah on the Jordanian dress. Palestinian tatreez features a qabbah that is more prominent and much more elaborate. And notice the color scheme on the Jordanian dress. Palestinian tatreez almost always uses a lot of red in the color palette for clothing (along with purple, yellow and dark blue.)

The red-and-white shmagh or keffiyeh is worn all over the Levant and even in the Gulf – it is very popular not only in Jordan, but in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Saudi and more.

#3 – I've never seen this type of headdress worn by Palestinian women

#4 – This is a Bedouin woman. The chin and face tattoos are a very old Bedouin tradition -- you see them in older women across the Middle East wherever Bedouins are – including Palestine. Tattooing the face was a fairly common custom for Bedouin girls up until maybe 60 or 70 years ago. The woman in this pic is wearing the black-and-white keffiyeh which has become so associated with Palestine (mostly because Arafat was almost never seen without one) but it is actually also very popular in several countries in the Middle East. The one in the pic is the tighter houndstooth pattern – Arafat always worn the looser pattern, and made it into an icon.

#5 – now these dresses are much more similar to Palestinian tatreez. As you can see, they use a lot of the familiar red, and the patterns look very much like the Palestinian style – it looks like there has been a strong influence from Palestinian design. However, the qabbah is a quite different shape and style, and some of the treatment on the sleeves and hem is rather unusual -- different than what you would normally see in Palestine. I would like to see a closer view of the stitchwork. The headdresses are a style that you do not see in Palestine.

As far as wearing tatreez -- it's still very common, but it’s usually the older ladies that you see in the traditional dresses -- especially women from the villages or rural areas (even if they now live in the city) – and yes, it’s their everyday-wear. Work, shop, whatever. It's almost always something they hand-made themselves, or a family member made it. Tatreez dresses and shawls are the most common items.

Upper-class urban women and the younger women tend to wear tatreez more as a *very* special-occasion dress (if at all) -- for a cultural event, for instance. More often, they're dressed in more modern-looking ready-to-wear clothes -- a lot of it is like what you'd see on young women in Amman -- stylish abayas, long tunics with jeans, etc.

Tatreez is a cultural treasure, and Palestinians have made a concentrated effort to preserve it for future generations. There are museums that collect and display examples from the various regions of Palestine, and there are schools in most of the refugee camps that teach girls and women how to make it and other traditional Palestinian crafts, which not only preserves tatreez as a living art, but also helps them create salable products to supplement their incomes -- a full, elaborately embroidered dress can sell to wholesalers for $100 or more (and by the time it gets to a retailer in other countries, $400 or more.) And Palestinians often use/display household items made of tatreez in their homes -- tablerunners or pillow cases or wall hangings.

Here are some excellent links explaining more about Palestinian tatreez:

http://www.thisweekinpalestine.com/i109/pd...ay-109-2007.pdf

http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/oimp25.pdf

OK! Yes, there was a misunderstanding. At any rate, we have an awesome tatreez discussion going! So yes--Palestinean tatreez is very recognizable and varies village to village like Jordanian.. and definately you can tell the difference between regional variations/culture/ethnic groups.

I was posting those pics of Jordanian tatreez so we could compare and see how different they are. Basic concept of cross-stich/embroidery is the same in the sense that you can recognize these are related styles... which is to be expected cultural dissemination from close culture groups. Obviously, this is very different from say, traditional French, German, etc embroidery. Jordanians are known for favoring triangular patterns.

A couple of notes-- those headdresses were hatah, traditional Jordanian wear. There are 2 parts-- that top cloth (which is keffiyeh/schmag now, but in the past was also a village-specific piece), and a seperate black "wimple" if you will, which you can somewhat see in the pictures. That wimple tucked into the thobe which was as open as any thobe at the neckline, but was their local solution to covering the neck/modesty. It sometimes can be open at the bottom which would allow for breast feeding. On the top it ties at the upper back of the head (above the lambda suture, do we even have a word for that place? Sigh. language breakdown!). I watched them re-fit Ammar's mother's one time. he said that married women wore the hatah, no one else. So it was sort of a rite of passage marker. It is mostly gone now, as the younger generation are going with hijabs from the market. No one is interested in hatah anymore.

Pic #4 is not actually a Bedouin woman but a regular villager. They were tatooed until recently in various local patterns, and may or may not (depending on the tribe) actually have any Bedouin relation at all.

Do you have any tatreez? Does your Dh have family who makes it? I'd love to see your tatreez if you have any, especially family tatreez.

These are 2 of Ammar's sisters. I had to add hijab to one hope you don't mind. I know she covers her hair. Anyway, you can see the tatreez at the bottom of one's thobe, and then you can see Nadia making more tatreez. She is the main one who does it in the family. She probably made Najah's thobe.

This is the thobe Nadia made that I have. I have some stich close-up, but not the back. I already had these so I'm tossing them up... if you wanted more detail I can go take a pic.