Is Immigration Too Easy??

[william_wallace 8]

In the UK, you have to have a fiance visa to marry. Can't be done on a tourist visa.

The UK fiance visa is very recent.... I didn't need one when we got married 4 1/2 years ago.

Do you have any idea why they started them?

Probebly to prevent people marrying on a tourist visa. It's doesn't solve the problem of illegal immigtation but i'm sure it helps somehow.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

They started in 2005 in the UK - for reasons of combating illegal immigration, I think. I could be wrong, but I think you have to have LLR in the passport to get married without a fiance visa. I'm not sure people on temporary work or student visas can get married. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dr. Obvious 49]

I was trying to figure out how that would help. I mean, the only scenario in my mind is Scammer comes to the UK on a tourist visa, immediately heads for the bar and doesn't stop until they pick up some idiot citizen or PR, convinces idiot to marry them immediately, adjusts status, and disappears. I guess it could also start out on the internet where the Scammer never goes home after arrival. Was this kind of thing common in the UK before fiancé visas? Do they work basically the same way a K-1 does?

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

more or less the same i think - though quicker and easier.

I actually knew a lot of fake marriages in the UK - usually among friends with an agreement. Mostly Antipodeans who wanted to stay when their 2 year work visas expired.

[Dr. Obvious 49]

How'd the fake divorces go?

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

How'd the fake divorces go?

Very amicably for the most part once ILR got stamped in. One person who went through fake marriage and fake divorce is now in an LDR with a girl from the US now. He'll never learn.

[Dr. Obvious 49]

Huh.

So I guess my question is now, is the fiance visa the absolute only way to marry as a foreigner in the UK? You can't adjust in country from other visa statuses?

[Susita 175]

I saw this thread and tried to hold myself back, but I'm going to open my big fat mouth

I read Athena's comment and all of the other comments regarding it. There's nothing illegal about meeting someone and falling in love with them and getting married, no matter what Visa they have. I live in one of the biggest cities in the world and let me tell you, 1 of every 3 friends I have is an immigrant of some sort. My whole family is immigrants too. Sometimes a person comes here with the intent to study, work, or visit, and you know what? It's not illegal to fall in love. We're human. And guess what's the best about it? It's not illegal!

There are people who go about it the wrong way, by marrying for green cards, etc. I'm not going to sit here and bash those people either. I am no one to judge them. I've been out of the US and seen poverty that is UN REAL. If I were in that situation, I'd sure as hell want to get out of it and better myself too. Think about it, are we swimming across the ocean or stuffing ourselves in the back of trucks or running across the border? NO. Why? Because we don't need to. When you have to worry every day about how you're going to feed your family that day, you need to.

So, everything is relative. I like to see things from many different sides.

[william_wallace 8]

I know someone personally who has lived and worked in the UK for nearly 10 years. Him and his fiance have been wanting to get married but has been told my lawyers and immigration officials that he has to leave the country first, then apply for the fiance visa.

Under no circumstances can he marry in the UK without the proper visa.

[Niels Bohr 72]

In a recent column on TangoMag.com a group of overweight women revealed what seems to be a growing concern among their cohort: That foreigners are marrying women with weight problems strictly to gain U.S. citizenship. And though the assertions in the column were made out of personal experience rather than concrete proof, hard data on "fake marriages" seems to back them up.

Recent figures released by Immigration and Customs Enforcement showed that one in five of the marriages they investigated turned out to be "fake," and that quickie marriages between American citizens and citizenship-seeking foreigners has become a multimillion dollar business.Is immigration too easy? Is America's current immigration system too open or too restrictive

Immigration is easy. All systems are easy after you understand how things work. If you know how a marine equipment system works, you will think it's easy. If you know how a computer works, you'll think it's easy. No matter how complicated things are from the abstract and absent of knowledge, as long as you know the system, it's easy!

[JeroenAndMichelle 28]

In the UK, you have to have a fiance visa to marry. Can't be done on a tourist visa.

The UK fiance visa is very recent.... I didn't need one when we got married 4 1/2 years ago.

Do you have any idea why they started them?

Probebly to prevent people marrying on a tourist visa. It's doesn't solve the problem of illegal immigtation but i'm sure it helps somehow.

Which is funny in a way coz in Europe it is actually possible to marry in some other countries without a fiance visa, they can legally marry in Europe and live in Europe and as soon as the foreign SO has been naturalized, they can live anywhere in Europe without any problem, the UK included...

[Gaby&Talbert 1]

Immigration is very easy if your coming from Mexico looool.

And why is this? It took us just as long as anyone else except for potential terrorist countries.

[Cécy 44]

Is immigration easy in the US?

I don't think so.

If it was so easy you wouldn't have any illegal immigrants, you would only have legal immigrants. You wouldn't have fake marriages and what not.

I tried to get a work visa before I went the marriage way to stay with my now husband. I had 4 job offers, and not to harvest potatoes, good jobs. I couldn't get a work permit and trust me, I tried, and I have the degrees and everything.

The issue is not that immigration is easy. The issue is how to stop or at least slow down illegal immigration. This is a country built on immigrants, yeah all of you unless you are 100% Native American are from immigrant families who came before any kind of immigration law was here, so breathe first and open your mind a bit before you spit on everyone around.

This country claims itself to be so good, it has a price: people want to come here.

Yes there is a serious issue with immigration and it's illegal immigration. The problem to solve it in my opinion is to stop hiring illegal immigrants.

Would you try to immigrate in a country if you knew you couldn't get a job unless with the proper documentation? I wouldn't. I'd rather stay in my country where I know I can get a job even if it pays less. Begging isn't something I would be interested in. Of course that's my opinion.

I don't think the biggest problem is marriage fraud.

Sure it exists. My husband uncle got married to a mail ordered bride, guess what, less than 2 years after they are divorced but I'm pretty sure she has her 10 year green-card and doesn't care anymore.

And yes I cam on a visitor B2 visa. And yes I applied for AOS. We were ready to apply for K1, we had all the papers fill in, I was ready to go back at the end of my visa. But then we find out we could directly apply, that it was perfectly legal. Why pay the extra fees, the extra plane ticket, deal with the heartache of being apart again if we didn't have to.

You think it's easy? It's not. I haven't seen my family in almost 2 years, I have a sick grandmother that I can't visit because I knew that coming here under a B2 visa it would be risky to have an AP in the sense that I had more chances of being refused at the border. It's a price I was willing to pay to be with my husband, to be happy with him.

When I talk to family and friends in the US and tell us about our process they can not believe it. They all think it's free and that you become a citizen right away As soon as we explain they are in shock at how complicated it can be, and I'm the one who has to explain there are reasons for this, that some people abuse of the system and that this is why it is like that.

Now to answer some of the stupid things mentioned:

They should:

1. Eliminate VWP. yeah, let's eliminate tourism. Great idea, I'm sure the already damaged economy will love it

2. Disallow AOS for individuals here on visitor visas. Because we all know that we came here looking for a wife/husband of course.

I don't know for you, but we we started our relationship we had no idea we were going to get married. When I came back I didn't want to and neither did it. Not only were we not ready but I was scared of it. It took us a while to get there like it would any relationship. I came because I was miserable without him. That doesn't mean I wanted to get married. We all need time to be sure, and when you can be with each other, in my opinion, it helps to figure that out.

3. Strengthen income/asset requirements for the Affidavit of Support. Poor people, middle class shouldn't be able to marry? Love doesn't ask for a bank account

4. Disallow divorced foreigners with conditional LPR status to remove conditions unless they were the victim of physical/mental abuse. When americans marring americans will not divorce in 10 months. I think that if you can prove that the relationship was legitimate and that there was real feelings and proof in a way you should not get sent away. Especially if there are kids in between.

Sure people like you love it, so you can skirt the system and people like you want liberal open borders so that it fits your agenda, only reason. Only way it is legal to marry someone on tourist visa is if they were not intending to get married prior to this and plan it, which makes us all wonder. And anyone overstaying a visa is breaking the law and an out right criminal and should be arrested and deported by ICE promptly, then we would not see all the problems we currently have along our borders, what is it that you people do not get, it is the law, and you do not want laws then move and get out of the USA and go live in some other place that has no laws and is liberal like you want, but yet people like you never do, they just want to stay right here in the USA and break any law or rule to fit their agenda, and so what if it is wrong as long as you can get by with it and do it, it makes it all ok in your mind, way to rationalize irrational law breaking behavior. And the sooner the USA closes the tourist visa loophole for marriage and raises the fee to do it that way to $10000 or more the better. And it is coming get ready, for it is people like you that advocate abusing it that is the reason the mass majority of America is sick and tired of immigration laws not being enforced and they are ready to change it now.

No we don't want liberal open border. We just want to be with the one we love. Is that a crime? If so please prove it. There is a reason the law allows people who marry USC to stay, it's because they do care about the happiness of their citizens.

Just because you had or choose to go the K1 or K3 way doesn't mean that people who can skip that step should do the same as you. Wouldn't you have done it if you had been in that situation, knowing that it's perfectly legal?

And you might be able to get $10000 out of the bank in a blink, but I don't know many people around me who can. Having money doesn't make you any more legitimate than other people.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Cécy

[Fandango 1,439]

Another is to marry in the USA with the correct visa. Any non US citizen can marry there on a toursit visa.

And? I met my husband after he entered the country, I wasn't going to send him back to Peru when it was completely legal to do it as we did it ... he had an overstay as he's embroiled in a wrongful death lawsuit. I wasn't going to make it harder on us than we had to. Did I mention it's legal? Legal legal legal. Just because people didn't choose the same path as you doesn't make it the "incorrect" visa. He didn't come here planning to get married, and turned down all the Puerto Ricans offering to marry him for papers.

Most of you people need to get over the "I didn't have that option available so it's not FAIIIIIR WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" entitlement complex.

I agree completely with this, why not stay together if you can. Why would anyone want to change the law so everyone has to be apart during the immigration process? I would think that if everyone had a choice they would rather have their SO here with them during the process?

Again I say if we want to change the law then let's make it better! Issue a temp visitor visa while you are petitioning your SO and allow them to have more time before LPR is issued to know if the relationship is real? What would be the harm in allowing the foreign spouse or fiance visit the US during the petitioning process and if denied they must return home. This could be ensured by a tracking device.

There's nowhere that outright refuses trips during the process if you're from a VWP country; I really can't see the benefit to tagging people like pets tho.

The harm in opening entry before the visa is complete (to me) would be extra wait times for one. Adds a whole other step to the process by needing the foreign SO vetted before entry (if not from a VWP country); if they can do that quickly, I'd rather see them decrease the petition to approval time. Honestly, is waiting 4-7 mos really that bad in the grand scheme of a marriage?

Furthermore, it's hard enough with failed marriages (where fraud is apparent after the fact) to do something about the foreign SO...I could see it'd be a nightmare trying to control the influx of non USCs in cases of denied petitions/ marriages that never took place/etc

Although saying all that, I have no problem with anyone AOSing after the fact if the intent upon entry was legitimate. You'd have to be crazy to send your foreign SO home to start the petition process if you can just do it all in one fell swoop with him/her by your side.

[zqt3344 21]

LAL, I am flattered to be your sweetheart.

I have not made any false claims, I did however offer up an opinion to what another poster listed as 5 reasons to change immigration process to improve it. Now as we all know it is open forum and it was an opinion, so it truly does not bother me that you do not care for my opinion or that you disagree with it; but do not twist it or put words in my mouth, that seems to be a pattern for you, and the only reason I can think of is because I do not tow your party line or do not go along with your opinions, which so what, I do not agree with you and you do not agree with me, makes for some interesting stuff, but I do not twist your words or put you down because I do not agree with your liberal views on US immigrations.

I will go slowly for you, and move forward to what I always state, which follows the USA immigration laws. AND I do not make false claims or mislead anyone, although I could say the that of you when you go off on a tangent here and do not even refute the issue at hand but some other after the fact drivel that I was not even talking about in the first place.

And I am feeling all warm and fuzzy today, so here goes.

You keep trying to ignore the fact that it is visa fraud to come to the USA and with the intent to get married on that tourist visa to a US citizen. Which I have been stating and will continue to state, and it is the USA INA law. It is on US embassy websites, US States Government Visas website and USCIS website.

I never said it was illegal to get married on a tourist visa IF certain requirements, rules or laws were followed and met, which you deep down in your heart what I say or state is actual and factual. I will lay out those requirements below per the USCIS INA law.

Here is what I state and I stand by if firmly and it is the USA law.

Problems using other visas to get married to US citizen on.

1) A foreigner may enter the US on a different type of visa, and then get married. However, the laws on temporary visitation are clear that the purpose of the visit must be honest. If someone has this intention to marry a US citizen when they first enter the US as a visitor (e.g. on a tourist or student visa) and then plan to remain in the US to live and work, they can be denied admission if immigration finds out that they had concealed this intention at the time of admission. This requires the tourist to be quite covert about their intentions, hiding things like engagement rings, photos of the couple together, and large amounts of personal belongings that might signify an interest in moving permanently to the US. It is important for the applicant to keep a clear intention when entering the US on any visa: are they entering to work, to study, to visit as a tourist, to do missionary work, or to immigrate (which is the only status that seems to include everything). Behavior that mixes these codified intents is, at best, frowned upon by immigration, and at worst might ultimately result in denial of visa, entry, adjustment of status, and possible deportation of the foreign national, even after a couple is legally married. They must maintain good records of their relationship and eligibility and show the government no cause whatsoever to believe that the fiance(e) is not eligible for permanent residency.

Some fiance(e)s think they might want to get married, but are not 100% certain, and need more time to get to know each other or to adjust to the new country. The fiance(e) may qualify for a visitor visa if the intention is not to get married in the USA (but to come and go and get married in another country, to return again on an immigrant visa). However, by applying for a K-1, the foreign fiance(e) may be much more open about their intentions since the purpose of the visa is to allow a foreign citizen to remain in the United States for 90 days to get married, with the idea of living and working legally after marriage. If the intent to marry is made clear enough, and something does happen that makes the couple decide not to marry, then the fiance(e) may leave the country without repercussions. However, in the case that the couple marries after entry on another type of temporary visa, there are some penalties under the law. In many cases the marriage will be upheld and immigrant status granted to the foreign spouse, but sometimes the foreign spouse risks being deported. Limitations have also been put into place to discourage marriage by visitors on other visas. For example, a K1 fiancee visa may not be issued to a recent student visitor (to discourage foreigners being students merely for the purpose of meeting US spouses). Though the K1 fiancee visa may take more time in planning, it minimizes risks that wedding plans will be scuttled at the last moment by a denial of admission. INA 210-214,215-222

2) What is a "Tourist Visa"?

A tourist visa, or B-2 visa, and sometimes called a "visitor's visa", "visitation visa", "travel visa" or "vacation visa" permits legal entry of a foreign visitor into the United States for a brief temporary stay. The purpose of the visa is tourism. Thus, a tourist visa is considered a "non-immigrant" visa, meaning that the visitor is expected to return home at the end of his/her visa stay. All applicants for a tourist visa are presumed under U.S. consular laws to have an "immigrant intent" for the U.S., and the burden is on the applicant to prove otherwise.

3) Marrying a foreign person visiting under a tourist visa to the USA is not a recommended course of action because that is not the "intended" purpose of a tourist visa, which is simply a brief temporary stay for tourism with a return home. As a practical matter, the Immigration Service knows that it happens and has in the past been willing to tolerate the action provided that the marriage is

A. truly genuine and not a sham, and

B. happened spontaneously and without pre-planning when the tourist visa was applied for.

4) An Immigration Service interviewing officer at the Adjustment of Status Interview for a spouse who married a U.S. citizen under a tourist visa may make a finding in her immigration file of "fraudulent intent", thus defeating the spouses adjustment of status.

If there is sufficient reason to believe that the marriage between the tourist and the American citizen is not genuine but a sham or was not spontaneous but pre-planned, the Immigration Service officer may find that the tourist had "fraudulent intent" in applying for and utilizing the tourist visa for a brief temporary visit. This by itself will result in the denial of your spouse's petition for U.S. legal residency, and may make the spouse subject to removal (deportation) and exclusion proceedings. This means that your spouse must return home to their country, while you live here (not a very pleasant result).

5)Key points

A.Was spontaneous and "on the spur of the moment"

B.Had no evidence of pre-planning or foresight

C.Was performed at a simple and unplanned ceremony

D.Happened at least 2 1/2 to 4 months (or more) after the lady entered the U.S.

Marriages which take place within 60 days of the foreign spouse entry under a tourist visa are presumed to be visa fraud. Since most tourist visa stays will be limited to 30 days under new Immigration Service rule changes, adjustment of status from tourist visa to legal residency based in domestic marriage to U.S. citizens will become more problematic.

Practically speaking, the type of case where adjustment might be successful:

The foreign spouse secured the tourist visa initially on their own before they knew of the U.S. citizen and without their help, they used the tourist visa to enter the U.S. before they knew of the US citizen, learned of them and met them for the first time in the U.S., the couple "spontaneoulsy" fell in love during the tourist visa period without any pre-planning or foresight, and the couple married after 60 to 90 days of the foreign spouse U.S. visit.

6) Penalties for the American citizen or permanent resident for some typical offenses associated with foreign brides and fiancees:

1. Conviction for Marriage Fraud

**Up to five years federal prison and/or $250,000 fine

(See Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. Section 1325)

2. Conviction for Willfully and Knowingly Falsifing or Concealing a Material Fact, Making a False Statement, or Making Use of a False Document

**Up to five years federal prison and/or $10,000 fine

(See Crimes and Criminal Procedure, 18 U.S.C. Section 1001)

AND a real life case that occured -

Deported: Ignorance was no excuse

With no time to consider other options, Baxter Thompson of Alexandria, Louisiana, and his wife Martina Diederich Thompson of Germany, were suddenly separated shortly after their marriage in 1997. (Reporter Anthony Lewis sparked public indignation when he publicized their case in the New York Times.) The Thompsons had married in Louisiana while Martina was visiting Baxter on a tourist visa. Before filing their INS papers, the newlyweds decided to travel to Germany together so that Baxter could meet his in-laws. They planned to file when they returned from their trip, but no such luck. When they arrived back in the U.S., Martina tried to reenter on her travel visa. The INS, however, realized that she was not really a tourist, but the wife of an American. She was detained at the border and deported back to Germany shortly thereafter. She was indefinitely banned from returning to America, even to visit, and at last report the two had remained separated for 15 months. By that time, Baxter was contemplating the sale of his business so he could relocate to Germany.

INA 214(B)

AND from US embassy websites

Section 214(B) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) stipulates that Consular Officers cannot issue nonimmigrant (visitor, tourist, business, or student) visas to individuals whom the Consular Officer suspects of intending to immigrate to the United States. Although you may contend that this visit is just to get acquainted in person to establish the feasibility of a continuing relationship, these people have, in fact, indicated a desire, willingness and readiness to emigrate from Ukraine by their decision to participate in mail/internet contact services.

Furthermore, even in regards to general applications for nonimmigrant visas, Section 214(B) of the INA places on nonimmigrant visa applicants the burden of overcoming a statutory presumption of intending immigration. Visa applicants overcome this presumption by proving that they have a permanent residence abroad which they have no intention of abandoning. Proof of an applicant’s intention to return to a permanent residence abroad is generally established by the demonstration of family, social, economic or other ties and commitments in another country which will oblige the individual to return there after a temporary stay in the United States.

Now for Athena - Can I get an extension of stay if my status already

expired?

If your status expired before you filed an application with USCIS to

extend your stay in the U.S. or if you have otherwise violated the

terms of your status, such as by working without authorization, then

you are out of status. If you have fallen out of status, except in

certain limited instances related to circumstances beyond your

control, we cannot extend your nonimmigrant stay. Staying longer

than the period of time for which you were granted admission may

also have a negative effect on your ability to get other benefits or

to return to the U.S. at a later time. If you fall out of status, we

recommend you leave the U.S. as soon as possible to avoid, or at

least minimize, the possible impact on your ability to come back to

the U.S. at a later time. M-579 per USCIS website.

In conclusion, what I stated above is not drivel nor is it misinformation but fact and the US immigration law.