IS YOUR WIFE THE SAME ONCE IN THE USA???

[Fixer 0]

You know, that would be a viable business model in many third world countries that any man SEEKING a foreign-born wife should be wary of for their own peace of mind. (My fiancee is foreign-born but that wasn't what I was looking for.)

Scene:

A family down on their luck takes their daughter to one of these MOB agents and sells her for money on the promise that they will 'marry her to some nice American man'.

The MOB trains them in basic English, enough to have them understand and say things like "yes" and "I love you". The girl is probably terrified but the MOB reassures them that if the man is bad that all they have to do is divorce them after X number of years and they can get half of what that man owns and an alimony payment to help them live the rest of their lives.

Along comes the silly American who wants a bride who will be subservient, obedient, and everything they want a woman to be. They check out one of these online sites and find some woman that looks hot. They inquire for further details and the MOB tells them everything they want to hear and offers to do the paperwork, for a nominal fee.

The girl, in the meantime, plays along knowing that if things don't work out they can always bail after their citizenship is approved. They will pour words like poisoned honey into their suitors ear in an effort to make them seem like the best deal. If the guy seems particularly loaded and foolish, the MOB might even be able to milk them for additional "unanticipated" expenses.

Of course, then the girl gets to the USA and plays the role she was trained to. After all, it is just a role, it is not something she will have to do for life. She just has to make it to citizenship. There might be indications at first that it is just a ruse, but if she has any acting talent at all the guy will be clueless until citizenship arrives and she finally makes her decision about whether or not to stay with him.

End scene

------------------

Now, through all of this there are a whole host of victims. The girl and her suitor are both being played. Sometimes the incomprehensible happens and the suitor does something to hurt the girl or the girl does something to arrange for her suitor's demise so she can inherit all of his belongings, but in the end it is all based on a lie. The entire process was corrupted from the start.

I feel sorry for everyone but the MOB involved in the process. If a dominating man wants a subservient woman and there is a subservient woman out there wanting a dominating man then I would be among those hoping they hook up and live happily ever after. (Not my style, I like my fiancee/wife to have a mind of her own, but I am not every guy.)

[zed2283 1]

All I have to say right now is thanks to everyone for the spirited debate. I very much enjoy these types of things and hearing about other people's beliefs and why they believe them. Not only is it interesting, but it helps me to reflect upon my own belief system.

I sincerely hope that everyone here on VJ (not only this thread) finds what they are looking for, that their process (the one we all share) goes smoothly and quickly, and that each of you will have your loved ones in your arms soon (yes Lisa, even you!)

With love and respect, we can all hopefully have the relationships that we deserve.

[Cassie 8]

It gets on my nerves a wee bit to be lumped into the "you're a western woman, therefor you must be anti-tradition" or some sort of other nonsense. It is possible to be traditional with a modern twist! It is possible to be submissive in a Biblical sense, and yet still have independance! I live it every day!

To the OP: in response to your original question my husband replied: "She'll radically change if all she wants is a green card, and this has all been an act. She'll grow and change and adapt over time if she is in it for love, but not so much that the essential core of her is lost." So take that as you will.

[ivona 0]

can you understand that the majority of posters on this thread are simply trying to say that what kind of a person someone is, has absolutely nothing to do with what country they are from? to generalize in any way and on any basis is just downright stupid.....[/color]

I totally disagree! For better or worse, I would not be the same person I am today had I been a citizen of/been raised in a country other than the U.S. Do you really think that our environment doesn't contribute to who we are?

I do not agree with tabula rasa theory, however environment does play a role to an extent, at the same time it is mostly very specific, close hand environment i.e. family/ friends that influences personal growth and development and even then only up to a certain age bracket- a relatively low age bracket .... anyone who wishes to claim that a certain country, skin colour, or native lanugage, or sexual orientation automatically guarantee a person with a specific set of values and behaviours will need to provide me with VERY specific and detailed data, factoid data before I agree to change my opinion on this

There are very few things that can be shown to "automatically guarantee" anything. You put someone in a tough position to debate with you when you assign to them such a hefty task.

Making a generalization about a group of people does not mean that you are implying that every single member of that group shares that characterisitic. It is just an observation that certain characteristics may be more common in one group than in another group.

the premise of this thread is that by taking a bride from a certain country you will get a specific type of wife, I would call that acting on an automatic guarantee.....

certainly one can claim that a certain amount of cultural characteristics will be present..... but, as soon as you get down to meeting actual persons belonging to a certain culture or nation you will soon realize that the assumption made on generalization doesn`t hold water.....

usually, you get to generalizing by putting together all the characteristics you find in a culture or nation, however I have yet to meet an individual who will entail all the generalized assumed characterisitc within its persona... it just doesn`t happen, or perhaps I have just been meeting all the "wrong" individuals in my traveling

With love and respect, we can all hopefully have the relationships that we deserve.

that is what I wish for us all

[Fixer 0]

Making a generalization about a group of people does not mean that you are implying that every single member of that group shares that characterisitic. It is just an observation that certain characteristics may be more common in one group than in another group.

This applies outside of relationships too. For the longest time I had only met rude French people who had serious self-esteem issues and looked down on everyone else in an effort to make themselves feel better. It wasn't until that layover in Charles de Gaul airport that I met all those really nice French people who were really helpful.

[Fandango 1,439]

This is from a website that intorduces foreign men to Colombian women.

"Colombian women posses qualities that many American and other foreign men desire, but that the Colombian man does not appreciate. Many of these qualities have disappeared or are hard to find in the modern cultures of the developed countries (USA, Canada, UK).

Colombian women have a more traditional outlook on marriage. They are devoted to their husbands and family. They are raised to be proud mothers and are home minded. They believe the most important things in the world are their children and the happiness of their family. Colombian women are genuine, loyal, honest, romantic, tender, and yes, they are very passionate women and strive to make their mates happy in every way.

There are beautiful, educated, and sexy women throughout Colombia and many other Latin American countries that really want to meet sincere men to be their husbands, lovers, and best friend."

Someone that compliments you...not COMPETES against you

Ask any man that has been to Colombia............they will tell you the same thing!!

Is this your official explanation of what 'traditional' means???

Please note: I find it very curious that it's assumed American women compete against the hubby. Small pecker syndrome anyone? lol

[Freda 0]

You totally missed the meaning Dr.J. Sure what mine is ours and whats his is ours but that's not the same. I for one would have felt terrible taking my fiance's money to by him an expensive bday present. Heck it would be like he bought it himself. I'm talking about her emotional feelings. Oh and I just thought of another thing. Where you not brought into this world by a western woman. Do you have these feels about your own Mother? Wonder what her view of whats being said here would be? Happy Mothers day all.

[Kez/JWolf 6]

OH WOW..... WELL i AM NOW A FULL DAY BEHIND WITH MY WORK.... YES I AM AT WORK AND ITS TAKEN ME ALL DAY TO READ ALL THE POSTS.... SO YOU GUY'S ARE ALL GOING TO HAVE TO COME WITH ME TO WORK TOMORROW AND HELP GET CAUGHT UP......

I thought the post about the MOB was very interesting... sounded just like the OP and his own discription of the Values he is looking for...

My co-worker think I should sugest that all marriage between men and woman should be banned and childern should be brought up in a Mom - Mom or Dad - Dad relationship then that would leave all of the rest of us to work as hard and as long as we want so we can have a car for each day and a house for each week... Interesting idea (me looks at co-worker in a new light)....

as for being able to live on $400.... please oh please tell me where I need to move to to do that... here in Boston you can not rent a studio for less than $800... and yes I earn $35,000 a year but with rent at $1875 per month it dont go very far.... oh and thats for a 1 bed townhouse....

oh well time to try and do some work....

Kezzie

[Freda 0]

at Zed's response, no, no, not surprised impressed. Maybe there is such thing as a honorable western man. HA HA HA just messin' with you. But you do make a good point we are all, after all doing the same thing. I just hope we are all in it for the same reason LOVE.

[*Robert* 2]

exactly......that is the NUMBER ONE REASON everyone use that excuse....." you need 2 incomes." NO you dont. You need 2 incomes if you got a SUPER SIZED HOME, 2 MERCEDES, buy BRAND NAME clothes, and 8 maxed out platinum VISA cards..........you can live comfortable on ONE income...my parents do it.....my mother stays at home and takes care of my little brother....and my step-dad make about $35-40k a year....it CAN BE DONE. My question is...WHEN does the family come first???

Are you saying, if a woman wants to work, she shouldn't be allowed to? A man should force his wife to stay home?

How about if the shoe was on the other foot, and your wife had the high end job? Woud you stay home and take care of the house and the kids, or is that work striclty limited to the women folk? Do you hold double standards? Regardless of anything else, how would YOU like to stay home day after day after day? Easy for you to think it's okay for someone to stay home and play "Susie Homemaker", but you don't have to. You can go off to work everyday, get out, see people, interact with people, while the wife sits home and has an intelligent conversation with the 2 yo?!!!

I HATE DOUBLE STANDARDS!!! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. PERIOD!!! Don't ask someone to do something you wouldn't be willing to do yourself. PERIOD!!!

Just so you know... I make PLENTY of money to support my future wife, and children if we are blessed to have them. If she wants to work, that's her perogative, and her money. My feelings are if she wants to work, she can, but only because it gives her something to do, not as a means of supporting our family, which is MY responsibility. In that regard... I am "old fasioned".

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

exactly......that is the NUMBER ONE REASON everyone use that excuse....." you need 2 incomes." NO you dont. You need 2 incomes if you got a SUPER SIZED HOME, 2 MERCEDES, buy BRAND NAME clothes, and 8 maxed out platinum VISA cards..........you can live comfortable on ONE income...my parents do it.....my mother stays at home and takes care of my little brother....and my step-dad make about $35-40k a year....it CAN BE DONE. My question is...WHEN does the family come first???

Are you saying, if a woman wants to work, she shouldn't be allowed to? A man should force his wife to stay home?

How about if the shoe was on the other foot, and your wife had the high end job? Woud you stay home and take care of the house and the kids, or is that work striclty limited to the women folk? Do you hold double standards? Regardless of anything else, how would YOU like to stay home day after day after day? Easy for you to think it's okay for someone to stay home and play "Susie Homemaker", but you don't have to. You can go off to work everyday, get out, see people, interact with people, while the wife sits home and has an intelligent conversation with the 2 yo?!!!

I HATE DOUBLE STANDARDS!!! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. PERIOD!!! Don't ask someone to do something you wouldn't be willing to do yourself. PERIOD!!!

Just so you know... I make PLENTY of money to support my future wife, and children if we are blessed to have them. If she wants to work, that's her perogative, and her money. My feelings are if she wants to work, she can, but only because it gives her something to do, not as a means of supporting our family, which is MY responsibility. In that regard... I am "old fasioned".

There's an easy solution to this. Men who believe women should not work for religious reasons should marry women who feel the same way, share the same convictions. If you're a man like that and if you have reason to believe you'll have better luck finding women who share your belief system in a different country, then by all means, go there and look. What isn't acceptable is for men who have a belief system to marry women who don't share it, and to then force his beliefs upon her. What is equally unacceptable is for a man and woman with a common belief system to get married and then be insulted by their peers who think they know better. JMHO.

[Fixer 0]

exactly......that is the NUMBER ONE REASON everyone use that excuse....." you need 2 incomes." NO you dont. You need 2 incomes if you got a SUPER SIZED HOME, 2 MERCEDES, buy BRAND NAME clothes, and 8 maxed out platinum VISA cards..........you can live comfortable on ONE income...my parents do it.....my mother stays at home and takes care of my little brother....and my step-dad make about $35-40k a year....it CAN BE DONE. My question is...WHEN does the family come first???

I want to call you names now but I will refrain.

I have been a single parent for five years now. After my divorce it was not easy to get rid of all the debts my ex- had run up and still take care of my son. If you have two parents willing to work together as you describe they probably can live off one income, but being a single parent it is not so easy.

You are a very aggravating person. You seem to have a gift for exaggeration and embellishment as opposed to discussing the actual matter at hand.

How about if the shoe was on the other foot, and your wife had the high end job? Woud you stay home and take care of the house and the kids, or is that work striclty limited to the women folk?

Oooh! Ooooh! Ivona? Can we try this?

Edited May 11, 2006 by Fixer

[Jenn! 918]

There's an easy solution to this. Men who believe women should not work for religious reasons should marry women who feel the same way, share the same convictions. If you're a man like that and if you have reason to believe you'll have better luck finding women who share your belief system in a different country, then by all means, go there and look. What isn't acceptable is for men who have a belief system to marry women who don't share it, and to then force his beliefs upon her. What is equally unacceptable is for a man and woman with a common belief system to get married and then be insulted by their peers who think they know better. JMHO.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[ivona 0]

There's an easy solution to this. Men who believe women should not work for religious reasons should marry women who feel the same way, share the same convictions. If you're a man like that and if you have reason to believe you'll have better luck finding women who share your belief system in a different country, then by all means, go there and look. What isn't acceptable is for men who have a belief system to marry women who don't share it, and to then force his beliefs upon her. What is equally unacceptable is for a man and woman with a common belief system to get married and then be insulted by their peers who think they know better. JMHO.

if there was a smiley that raises a glass in salute I would put a bunch of those, but as it is will have to do...

in complete agreement.... live and let live

How about if the shoe was on the other foot, and your wife had the high end job? Woud you stay home and take care of the house and the kids, or is that work striclty limited to the women folk?

Oooh! Ooooh! Ivona? Can we try this?

mmmmm, can we split the difference

[Fandango 1,439]

Zed....

I just so happened to have fallen in love with an Englishman, not that I went looking specifically for one.

This is from a website that intorduces foreign men to Colombian women.

"Colombian women posses qualities that many American and other foreign men desire, but that the Colombian man does not appreciate. Many of these qualities have disappeared or are hard to find in the modern cultures of the developed countries (USA, Canada, UK).

Colombian women have a more traditional outlook on marriage. They are devoted to their husbands and family. They are raised to be proud mothers and are home minded. They believe the most important things in the world are their children and the happiness of their family. Colombian women are genuine, loyal, honest, romantic, tender, and yes, they are very passionate women and strive to make their mates happy in every way.

There are beautiful, educated, and sexy women throughout Colombia and many other Latin American countries that really want to meet sincere men to be their husbands, lovers, and best friend."

Someone that compliments you...not COMPETES against you

Ask any man that has been to Colombia............they will tell you the same thing!!

I'm sorry for my 'small pecker' comment however shrouded in thruth the theory may or may not be. That was a low blow on my part. But I am very interested in what you've said here.

I happen to think there's something morally wrong with picking your woman out from a MOB website as if she's a puppy in a window. 'oooh, I hear the 'Colombian' is a good breed! Loyal to a fault, and you won't have to worry about feeling inferior to a woman by assuming your wife will be competing with you'

Seriously tho, I find it VERY telling that one characteristic that was bolded in red was that foreign wives don't COMPETE against husbands. When did American women start doin that? Of course, women have been competing for jobs in the workplace, competing for equal pay, etc But in a domestic situation, I am at a loss as to competing for WHAT exactly...because I thought you believed that you share everything....so how is it competing if your teammate succeeds????

Competing for what?

I'd like you to confirm or deny the fact that these are the 'values' that you think eludes the American woman. Is this what you mean by 'traditional'?

I"m actually curious for the response of Dr J, pedroh, zed, and Ken from Ken and Inna...actually any other male who also believes in what they're saying. See Ken believes a woman should work to support the family, Dr J doesn't, Yet both feels that is a 'traditional' role, so I'm confused. I'm looking forward to the men who are Pro-Traditional coming up with a list of characteristics that elude the American woman.

Pedroh came up with not dancing with other men...

DrJ brought up abortion early on....a tradtional woman doesn't believe in abortion. Or work for a living...

Yet, Ken brought up the need to have a woman who won't sit on her ### after having a baby because Ken was in a 'transition' period workwise (I"m not even goin there Ken). A woman who will have a little more job stability than God knows how many jobs in how many years. One who would not cheat on him and get tatoos and live in sin with another man.

So as you see, boys, you're not coming across as a united front. So I'd just like a litte more insight as to what you all think constitiutes this rare & elusive 'Traditional Woman'

This lil gem came from Zed elsewhere:

I would like to second that for all you ladies out there. DO NOT pressure your men. That is the worst thing you can do. We men are just trying to do what we feel is right, in our own time and in our own way. If you love us and trust us and believe in us, then know that we will come around eventually. And letting us do it that way will lead to a much better relationship. And if it doesn't happen, then both people are better off in the end than if things had been forced to move forward.

I think this is very telling here. Dont' pressure your man. Don't question him. For the good of the relationship, let him be!!! Take heed, women folk! This is the worst.thing.you.could.do!

I'm not telling you that you don't have the right to choose who you want. You SHOULD marry someone who gels with you and shares your belief system. What I'm pulling apart here is your desire to put American women down at the same time. You like a woman with an accent? You like a woman who is exotic and is from a new & exciting land? THAT'S GREAT....by all means go to it. I'm not even telling you that you don't have the right to be a sexist creepy chopfcuk. That's your business!

But if you're going to pick a woman based on the fact that all or most American women are ######, have weak family values, etc..well that's where I draw the line. That is utter bs and everyone here knows it!

Edited May 11, 2006 by LisaD