IS YOUR WIFE THE SAME ONCE IN THE USA???

[Ken and Inna 0]

Dr. J

80% of divorces are originated by the wifes.

That's because the women are the smart ones that get the he$$ out of a bad relationship. I know of too many instances where the homelife was a wreck, cussing, name calling, working her a$$ off at a 40+ hour a week job OUTSIDE the home and then come home to another full time job. In the instances I know of, the man is in his comfort zone so why would he want a divorce? ****now I will run and hide****

Perhaps if she was smart she would not have got in that kind of relationship in the first place...however that is not close to my previous situation...my ex worked 15 jobs in five years. quit her job while I was in a planned transition period that I saved for to look for a better job...bare in mind we had a new born a home and no income because someone hurt her feelings at work...responsible mother...right? By the way the above listing sounds like a typical bad boy situation. My wife left me for her best friend which was at the time a friend of mine...She got a tattoo and he called her white trash, they have been shacking up for 4 years, he will never marry her, does not like kids, makes her buy her own groceries...my money her money, pay her percentage share of the bills, kicked her out of the bedroom cause she snored (sounds like the guy you decribed above). What an improvement from someone who took turns getting up at night with the baby, cleaned house, kept the yard, tried to give her everything that I could within my power, kept my son solely afterwork for three nights a week while her and prince charming went walking for health sake and everyother night while she talked with him on the phone for an hour plus...long distance. Anywho I am not trying to air out my past problems...I for myself have seen way to many nice loving husbands and fathers dumped on by their past wives. I for myself do not care to have a repeat of the past. cheers!

It sounds like you have some serious issues with closure...however, i do feel I have to point out the obvious:

A REAL responsible wife & mother wouldn't have a job outside the home the first place! hardly traditional, isnt it? What kind of traditional man allows such disobedience!?!?!?!

*sarcasm mode off*

Ok, now I will REALLY try to refrain, but I'm having too much fun!

LOL...I am sure you know as well as I that it is incredibly tough to run the family on one income these days unless you earn above average...of course an appropriate response would be that today since women insisted on entering the work force...employers are enjoying having both parents working for what use to be comparable to the bread winners earnings..meaning you almost don't have a choice for someone to stay home and raise the kids these days...maybe thats why all the kids are on prozac and #######...not enough parental involvement. Again I will repeat myself...since NOBODY seems to hear me...LISTEN I do not want a slave or subserviant woman.

[Fandango 1,439]

Dr. J

80% of divorces are originated by the wifes.

That's because the women are the smart ones that get the he$$ out of a bad relationship. I know of too many instances where the homelife was a wreck, cussing, name calling, working her a$$ off at a 40+ hour a week job OUTSIDE the home and then come home to another full time job. In the instances I know of, the man is in his comfort zone so why would he want a divorce? ****now I will run and hide****

Perhaps if she was smart she would not have got in that kind of relationship in the first place...however that is not close to my previous situation...my ex worked 15 jobs in five years. quit her job while I was in a planned transition period that I saved for to look for a better job...bare in mind we had a new born a home and no income because someone hurt her feelings at work...responsible mother...right? By the way the above listing sounds like a typical bad boy situation. My wife left me for her best friend which was at the time a friend of mine...She got a tattoo and he called her white trash, they have been shacking up for 4 years, he will never marry her, does not like kids, makes her buy her own groceries...my money her money, pay her percentage share of the bills, kicked her out of the bedroom cause she snored (sounds like the guy you decribed above). What an improvement from someone who took turns getting up at night with the baby, cleaned house, kept the yard, tried to give her everything that I could within my power, kept my son solely afterwork for three nights a week while her and prince charming went walking for health sake and everyother night while she talked with him on the phone for an hour plus...long distance. Anywho I am not trying to air out my past problems...I for myself have seen way to many nice loving husbands and fathers dumped on by their past wives. I for myself do not care to have a repeat of the past. cheers!

It sounds like you have some serious issues with closure...however, i do feel I have to point out the obvious:

A REAL responsible wife & mother wouldn't have a job outside the home the first place! hardly traditional, isnt it? What kind of traditional man allows such disobedience!?!?!?!

*sarcasm mode off*

Ok, now I will REALLY try to refrain, but I'm having too much fun!

LOL...I am sure you know as well as I that it is incredibly tough to run the family on one income these days unless you earn above average...of course an appropriate response would be that today since women insisted on entering the work force...employers are enjoying having both parents working for what use to be comparable to the bread winners earnings..meaning you almost don't have a choice for someone to stay home and raise the kids these days...maybe thats why all the kids are on prozac and #######...not enough parental involvement. Again I will repeat myself...since NOBODY seems to hear me...LISTEN I do not want a slave or subserviant woman.

I actually happen to agree with a lot of what you just said. I also happen to believe you let your problems with your ex-wife sour you on American women in general to the point wher eyou felt you had to look OUTSIDE your country to get a woman. Why? What are you looking for? A woman that wouldn't have cheated on you? Not for nothing, but there are three sides to every story, but your ex wife sounds like a nightmare, and if you think she's indicitive of American women, you couldn't be more wrong.

I have NEVER in my life cheated on anyone, I am completely committed to my man & my family, and I'd actually lay down my life for my family. So who the hell are you to say my morals or values are less acceptable than a foreign woman? I think you are a sad scared man who's so afraid of getting hurt again that you felt you had to import one who's so grateful to be here that she'll never leave.

NOW I'm going, and this time I'm going to really try to go!

Ps asd btw, I'm not anti-non American women...I'm against the anti-American woman sentiment only. The heart wants what it wants, and that's fine. But to say one whole particular nation of women is deficient is just WRONG.

[Ken and Inna 0]

no comments..

but a lot of people are missing the point.. only merc got it.. and dr j.. i understand what u mean.. but people here think u're a chauvinistic pig who wants to control ur wife with an iron grip..

true.. stereotyping is bad..a family who can barely pay a mercedez will be found in USA as in Mexico or in any other country.. but i think everybody's missing the point of dr j.

what is considered 'controlling' 'chauvinistic' in USA is considered a 'value' in probly Latin America.. and it's a value there.. no one has the right to call it a 'controlling measure and to treat women as 2nd class citizens'.. is just a different way of thinking.. period.. one think I agree with.. is with the normality of divorces.. true, sometimes people make mistakes, sometimes teh husband is an abusive mofo' and u really need to get away from him.. but.. I think people and media are making the divorce a normal 'lets try again'.. a common thing, almost comparing it to the level of sacred marriage.. and that is very wrong indeed..

I've heard lotta times people in their 4th marriages.. true, sometimes one is not the guilty of failure, but.. I think they should consider if they are made for marriage.. or they just want the moola from the divorce arrangements..

But the point that you're missing is who's to say you can't find that in America too?? I believe in specific male roles & female roles. I do believe men and women are equal..but very different! And for someone to say they have to look outside their own country for 'good family values' in a woman is ridiculous, let alone insulting to American women.

Sure, some people get divorced too quick...but some people in other countries are stuck in something long dead. Who's to say what's better? It's all about finding balance with one particular person who shares your views...not by saying 'American women aren't traditional enough' when that actually CANNOT be true on a whole. That's what I'm taking umbrage with.

What defines traditional? Staying in a bad marriage? Deferring to a man? Not working? Feeling bad for wanting a nice car? Living in an overcrowded home? Seriously, what is it that defines what is soooo sought after that no American woman has? Cos no one is going to sit here and tell me that I, as an American woman, don't give my relationship my all & that I'm not committed enough to my family.

It seems to me that what defines 'traditional' to some of the men in here is needing to be NEEDED and having a woman DEPENDANT on him to the point that it gives the man some kind of sense of security that she won't leave. That's why this topic started in the first place. The OP is bricking it that his woman is going to see she has choices, and not want his insecure ### anymore. And that's kinda sad.

example..

I don't like my wife to dance with anybody.. i've never liked it.. I dont dance with other girls either.. first she started with the 'ohh but american girls do it, no big deal'.. and I was.. nope.. nope.. of course we were both inexperienced, trying to get smart-assy with each other.. by now.. if she goes to a girls nights out (which i dont have a problem with it anymore lol) she doesn't dance with any boys around.. why, i dont like it.. and that doesn't make me chauvinist or 'controlling'.. I dont see a problem where a partner feels a certain thing is wrong or doesnt like it..

there are values that are different.. like the girls nights out, or whatever.. and, not because in one culture its not used to it, it means its an archaic culture..

Ps. pedroh...I'm American & I wouldn't dance with another man. I wouldn't expect my man to dance with another woman either. That has nothing to do with where either of us are from, it's called our balance.

What are you looking for? That woman who called everyone here who goes to male gynos whores? Gotcha!

I agree with you! it is not true on the whole...never said it was, however realize it is much harder in the US to find this especially since fakeness, lies, manipulation and alterior motives play into effect much more in our culture than selective others. It is all to easy for people to pretend and express to be something they are not and many times they are very good at hiding the real person...at least for the short term. Now for instance in the former USSR women want similar things as US women, however fakeness, lies, and manipulation are much less common. Generally they are serious, genuine, determined, educated and very family oriented...in fact they would prefer to make a cosy home over a highly successul career...meaning they are not nearly as material as most americans are. Now this scenario is speaking on a majority scale but since people are individuals of course it is not absolute for everyone. So to clarify...you have to dig through much more ####### here and take a significantly bigger risk to find the same charecter.

[MichelleandCraig 1]

Dr. J

80% of divorces are originated by the wifes.

That's because the women are the smart ones that get the he$$ out of a bad relationship. I know of too many instances where the homelife was a wreck, cussing, name calling, working her a$$ off at a 40+ hour a week job OUTSIDE the home and then come home to another full time job. In the instances I know of, the man is in his comfort zone so why would he want a divorce? ****now I will run and hide****

Perhaps if she was smart she would not have got in that kind of relationship in the first place...however that is not close to my previous situation...my ex worked 15 jobs in five years. quit her job while I was in a planned transition period that I saved for to look for a better job...bare in mind we had a new born a home and no income because someone hurt her feelings at work...responsible mother...right? By the way the above listing sounds like a typical bad boy situation. My wife left me for her best friend which was at the time a friend of mine...She got a tattoo and he called her white trash, they have been shacking up for 4 years, he will never marry her, does not like kids, makes her buy her own groceries...my money her money, pay her percentage share of the bills, kicked her out of the bedroom cause she snored (sounds like the guy you decribed above). What an improvement from someone who took turns getting up at night with the baby, cleaned house, kept the yard, tried to give her everything that I could within my power, kept my son solely afterwork for three nights a week while her and prince charming went walking for health sake and everyother night while she talked with him on the phone for an hour plus...long distance. Anywho I am not trying to air out my past problems...I for myself have seen way to many nice loving husbands and fathers dumped on by their past wives. I for myself do not care to have a repeat of the past. cheers!

It sounds like you have some serious issues with closure...however, i do feel I have to point out the obvious:

A REAL responsible wife & mother wouldn't have a job outside the home the first place! hardly traditional, isnt it? What kind of traditional man allows such disobedience!?!?!?!

*sarcasm mode off*

Ok, now I will REALLY try to refrain, but I'm having too much fun!

LOL...I am sure you know as well as I that it is incredibly tough to run the family on one income these days unless you earn above average...of course an appropriate response would be that today since women insisted on entering the work force...employers are enjoying having both parents working for what use to be comparable to the bread winners earnings..meaning you almost don't have a choice for someone to stay home and raise the kids these days...maybe thats why all the kids are on prozac and #######...not enough parental involvement. Again I will repeat myself...since NOBODY seems to hear me...LISTEN I do not want a slave or subserviant woman.

I actually happen to agree with a lot of what you just said. I also happen to believe you let your problems with your ex-wife sour you on American women in general to the point wher eyou felt you had to look OUTSIDE your country to get a woman. Why? What are you looking for? A woman that wouldn't have cheated on you? Not for nothing, but there are three sides to every story, but your ex wife sounds like a nightmare, and if you think she's indicitive of American women, you couldn't be more wrong.

I have NEVER in my life cheated on anyone, I am completely committed to my man & my family, and I'd actually lay down my life for my family. So who the hell are you to say my morals or values are less acceptable than a foreign woman? I think you are a sad scared man who's so afraid of getting hurt again that you felt you had to import one who's so grateful to be here that she'll never leave.NOW I'm going, and this time I'm going to really try to go!

Ps asd btw, I'm not anti-non American women...I'm against the anti-American woman sentiment only. The heart wants what it wants, and that's fine. But to say one whole particular nation of women is deficient is just WRONG.

I couldn't have said some of that better, Lisa. I'm a late arrival, but boy what a thread!!! I would just like to add that I am a very traditional American woman, and yet I have always worked. Why? Necessity and necessity ONLY. Many women feel the need to get out into the workforce and contribute (income wise, society wise..whatever) and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion...whatsoever. I would LOVE to be home making nice suppers every single night for my husband and son, (and I do most nights anyway!) cleaning the house to make sure it always looks nice,etc etc etc. HOWEVER...we all do NOT have that option. Someone posted near the middle of this thread..I think it was the OP, that those of us who work do so,basically, because we are living beyond our means. OH, Realllyyyyy?? Hm. I'll have to try to remember that. I had to work when I first had my son and left my ex who only started to abuse me physically when I was 7 months pregnant...I was stupid enough to stay around for six years longer..but he was SUCH a deadbeat. I was young and stupid...since the OP's post, others have said..ok ...if you have to leave in that situtation, fine. So..moving on. I was a single parent for years, so I had to work. HOWEVER..I tried to do everything I could to keep my son in a loving environment...and from the time he was small, my parents babysat him...the entire time..while I worked. they were wonderful, and it was the best option I could have ever hoped for...HOWEVER ..not everyone has this option. Relatives aren't close, they are unwilling,etc etc etc....and yes, some people NEED, not want, 2 incomes. For instance..when Craig was moving here and couldn't have his EAD for months and months..how were we supposed to survive??? Immigration isn't a common situation, but it's one we're all in or have been in, or we wouldn't be here on VJ...so, if the petitioner here happens to be a woman like myself, what do you suggest they do? Play the lotto, or live off her non-existant inheritance? Secondly, even when Craig does get a job, I'm still going to need to work...AND we live in a 40,000 home that we rent from my parents(are going to buy..but obviously at 40,000 it's not fancy..but it is nevertheless a very nice house) and we have two cars that are worth about 1500.00 each...and we had to get a loan for the one we bought recently to have a 2nd car so Craig and I each had our own to go to work and school. Not everyone works because they want to have more 'things' and not everyone stays at home because they are lazy! My irritation with this post comes from the many, many vast generalizations presented here. Good night. M.

[lisaf 0]

fantastic!!!

[I'm Gone 60]

I am woman, hear me roar

In numbers too big to ignore

And I know too much to go back an' pretend

'cause I've heard it all before

And I've been down there on the floor

No one's ever gonna keep me down again

Thank God and Greyhound you're gone!

I didn't know how much longer I could go on,

watching you take the respect out of me,

watching you make a total wreck out of me.

That big diesel motor is a playing my song.

[pj1959us 0]

I agree with you! it is not true on the whole...never said it was, however realize it is much harder in the US to find this especially since fakeness, lies, manipulation and alterior motives play into effect much more in our culture than selective others. It is all to easy for people to pretend and express to be something they are not and many times they are very good at hiding the real person...at least for the short term. Now for instance in the former USSR women want similar things as US women, however fakeness, lies, and manipulation are much less common. Generally they are serious, genuine, determined, educated and very family oriented...in fact they would prefer to make a cosy home over a highly successul career...meaning they are not nearly as material as most americans are. Now this scenario is speaking on a majority scale but since people are individuals of course it is not absolute for everyone. So to clarify...you have to dig through much more ####### here and take a significantly bigger risk to find the same charecter.

You gotta give me a break...you're talking about "fakeness lies manipulation and alterior [sic] motives" when your "loved one" is from a country fraught with women bilking men out of thousands of dollars by fraud. I think that enough American men that have lost their money to women with these "great values" could argue with you on that point. Are all women from Ukraine like that? No. It is as ridiculous an assessment as your spouting ####### about American women....you're so busy telling us that "well, you shouldn't have married him" in previous posts....well, YOU shouldn't have married the woman YOU did. I'm sick to the eye teeth of being told "you don't understand". I have an IQ in the triple digits and I understand just fine. It's you that can't seem to understand what we are saying.

[tom&tata 2]

I agree with you! it is not true on the whole...never said it was, however realize it is much harder in the US to find this especially since fakeness, lies, manipulation and alterior motives play into effect much more in our culture than selective others. It is all to easy for people to pretend and express to be something they are not and many times they are very good at hiding the real person...at least for the short term. Now for instance in the former USSR women want similar things as US women, however fakeness, lies, and manipulation are much less common. Generally they are serious, genuine, determined, educated and very family oriented...in fact they would prefer to make a cosy home over a highly successul career...meaning they are not nearly as material as most americans are. Now this scenario is speaking on a majority scale but since people are individuals of course it is not absolute for everyone. So to clarify...you have to dig through much more ####### here and take a significantly bigger risk to find the same charecter.

Curiosity. How long have you lived in one of former USSR countries ? I mean, outside visits ?

[zed2283 1]

So there's not an American woman around with family values?

Come on, ladies, don't sweat it so much. You really just have to laugh at them. I find it hysterical. The internet truly does give people balls of steel. No way they'd walk into their corner pub and say this (although I'm sure they claim they would).

No one is really THAT dumb.

I'll tell it to your face in a heartbeat and have many times (not yours, of course). I'm sure the rest of these guys would too.

[zed2283 1]

Well, I would say that over 50% is a lot. And over 50% of marriages in this country fail. I would call divorce a "major breakdown" in the family unit (I'm surprised you even posed a question with such an obvious answer). And while it does take two to tango, if you do a little research you'll find that 70-80% of divorces are initiated by women. I think you'll also find that those numbers are much, much lower in countries that may be viewed as more traditional. And women in those countries work, just like they do in the U.S. In fact, many times the woman is supporting the family (something most Western women would never tolerate), so it's not like the women there can't be independent if they wanted to.

Most guys who promote "traditional" values are also in favor of women getting an education (like Dr. J said) and working if that's what they want to do. But there is still a fundamental difference in the values that women from traditional countries have when compared to Western women. You don't see it because you don't understand it. But it's obvious to those of us who were brought up in "traditional" families. Of course this doesn't apply to you in particular, or your mother/sister/daughter/best friend, so don't get excited. But the trends are there.

To the guy who made a comment about the stereotypical American man who "can't handle American women," the fact is that many American men simply don't WANT to handle American women. That's why, as my man Dr. J pointed out, there is a growing trend of American men seeking relationships with women from other, more traditional, countries. You can turn it into some sort of psychological babble, but it really boils down to what you value in your relationship.

a family is a lot more than just defined by 'man woman kid' and how DARE you question the morality of the family unit of divorced people.

I'm going to get past the initial outrage at your post & probe this further. Firstly, I can't rattle off the top of my head how many divorces are initiated by men/women...but to place blame *even in a passive aggresive manner* to women for initiating vx% is absolutely short sighted and ignorant. So big whoop, in other countries women don't leave as much. Well, in other countries women are seen and treated as second class citizens, female genital mutilation runs rampant, and women don't have as many rights as their male counterparts. So what's that gotta do with the price of coffee?

I can't tell you why marriages fail, but I certainly wouldn't say that a woman divorcing an abusive husband shows more of a breakdown than a woman staying in an abusive marriage somewhere else because it's not the norm to leave. Which one is more of a 'breakdown'? Personal responsibility is a b!tch, eh?

There's also a difference between 'tradtional' and 'subservient' and I think you're confusing the two,

Who questioned the morality of divorced people? You asked how many American families showed some sort of "major breakdown" and I responded by saying divorce is obviously a "major breakdown." The fact that it's so common, it's now socially acceptable, and everyone's used to it doesn't mean that it's anything other than that. Hmmm... much like eroding "traditional" values that no one seems to recognize.

I don't think anyone here would condone an abusive spouse or question one's right to leave an abusive relationship, and I'll agree that some of the numbers are because of this type of thing (where it's more acceptable to leave than in other countries). But I also certainly don't think the places we're talking about (Latin America) are so primitive that women are treated as second-class citizens, have less rights than men, or are subjected to any sort of institutionalized genital mutilation. In fact, if I were latino I would be very offended by that sort of implication. I have been to Latin America no less than 12 times (no, that doesn't make me an authority) and have found the people and culture to be remarkable. And certainly the women are cherished and respected. I also know quite a few people from Latin America who are living in this country and they uphold the same traditions and values. Unfortunately, I think you'll find that their children and/or grandchildren most likely will not.

And finally, I think you will find that it is you (and all those who have been outraged in this thread) who is confusing "traditional" and "subservient."

Firstly, you jumped in an answered a question not posed to you. You answered 'how do you measure the breakdown of the American family unit. You came in with your pseudo figures and placed blame at women's feet for filing the lion's share of divorces.

You questioned it when you laid blame on women. Now what that's gotta do with what the 'breakdown' of a family is, is anyone's guess. Is the breakdown the divorce, or is the breakdown what LED to the divorce? A divorce is not necessarily a breakdown in a 'family unit' and for you to try to place blame at women's feet for 80% of divorces is laughable. Who are you to judge why a marriage doesn't work out? Who are you to know what goes on?

Meanwhile, I don't even think that percent is accurate anyways, but that's besides the point because it's not even relevant anyways.

A single woman has no less 'traditional family values' than a married one based on her marital status. You cannot judge someone like that. What is a 'traditional American family' then? Would a widowed mother not be considered any less of a 'real' family than one with a husband? hrmmm???? A family can be quite traditional even if in a home with one parent, and for you to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

the fact is that many American men simply don't WANT to handle American women.

That was YOUR quote, no one else's....and if you wanna play that off like anything other than pure cowardice for not wanting to 'handle' an American woman (as if we are one size fits all) tells me that you're less of an man than you think you are. Women are not 'handled' like cattle...and there are American ones that believe in staying home tending the children, and there are others who would rather excel in a career than motherhood. That's fine. It's called empowerment and the power to choose. There are traditional American women. They are abounding. But if you're looking for a woman in an area that doesn't GIVE women that choice, well then I'd say that makes you a coward because you want a woman who DOESN'T KNOW she has the choice, one who was raised to fit some cookie-cutter stepford mom.

It seems you looked outside your country because you're afraid of an empowered woman, and for that reason, I pity you more than you could know. And an empowered woman is not just the one who chooses a career....it's the one who CHOOSES to be a stay at home mom. She's home tending the children and taking care of the husband because of choice, not because of archaic conditioning.

Well I'm sorry for answering a question that wasn't posed to me. I thought that since it was posted on this message board that it was fair game for everyone. I didn't know the rules.

"Is the breakdown the divorce, or is the breakdown what LED to the divorce?" I think you're missing the point here... it's the same thing! It doesn't matter why the divorce happened (with some reasons being completely justified, as we've said). It doesn't matter if it's the symptom or the disease, it just means that here in the U.S. we have suffered a breakdown of the family.

The use of the word "handling" wasn't mine, but I went with it. And it was not originally used as in to handle cattle but as not being able to take something. So let's not twist the words around to make it sound like something it's not. I see you've done that several times already in this thread.

And again, you're not paying attention, just flying off the handle (no, not like handling cattle). That must be your "empowered" American woman mind (and attitude) again. We've all said that we are for women making their own decisions (work, school, whatever). It's not about choosing to stay at home or choosing to go to work. It's about values and attitudes.

So if my fiancee (or Dr. J's, who will also be going to school) CHOOSES to stay at home (although she wants to work) then she'll be doing so because of some "archaic conditioning"? Why don't you go ahead and insult an entire group of women? I already told you that women there work and help support their families. Maybe it's just that they don't fit YOUR cookie-cutter idea of what a woman should be. There goes your "empowered" mind (and attitude) again...

Yes, there are traditional American women. But looking for a non-American women does not make me or anyone else a coward. It means that we'd prefer to look somewhere where 80% of the women share the same sets of beliefs, rather than somewhere where 20% of them do.

[Fandango 1,439]

Well, I would say that over 50% is a lot. And over 50% of marriages in this country fail. I would call divorce a "major breakdown" in the family unit (I'm surprised you even posed a question with such an obvious answer). And while it does take two to tango, if you do a little research you'll find that 70-80% of divorces are initiated by women. I think you'll also find that those numbers are much, much lower in countries that may be viewed as more traditional. And women in those countries work, just like they do in the U.S. In fact, many times the woman is supporting the family (something most Western women would never tolerate), so it's not like the women there can't be independent if they wanted to.

Most guys who promote "traditional" values are also in favor of women getting an education (like Dr. J said) and working if that's what they want to do. But there is still a fundamental difference in the values that women from traditional countries have when compared to Western women. You don't see it because you don't understand it. But it's obvious to those of us who were brought up in "traditional" families. Of course this doesn't apply to you in particular, or your mother/sister/daughter/best friend, so don't get excited. But the trends are there.

To the guy who made a comment about the stereotypical American man who "can't handle American women," the fact is that many American men simply don't WANT to handle American women. That's why, as my man Dr. J pointed out, there is a growing trend of American men seeking relationships with women from other, more traditional, countries. You can turn it into some sort of psychological babble, but it really boils down to what you value in your relationship.

a family is a lot more than just defined by 'man woman kid' and how DARE you question the morality of the family unit of divorced people.

I'm going to get past the initial outrage at your post & probe this further. Firstly, I can't rattle off the top of my head how many divorces are initiated by men/women...but to place blame *even in a passive aggresive manner* to women for initiating vx% is absolutely short sighted and ignorant. So big whoop, in other countries women don't leave as much. Well, in other countries women are seen and treated as second class citizens, female genital mutilation runs rampant, and women don't have as many rights as their male counterparts. So what's that gotta do with the price of coffee?

I can't tell you why marriages fail, but I certainly wouldn't say that a woman divorcing an abusive husband shows more of a breakdown than a woman staying in an abusive marriage somewhere else because it's not the norm to leave. Which one is more of a 'breakdown'? Personal responsibility is a b!tch, eh?

There's also a difference between 'tradtional' and 'subservient' and I think you're confusing the two,

Who questioned the morality of divorced people? You asked how many American families showed some sort of "major breakdown" and I responded by saying divorce is obviously a "major breakdown." The fact that it's so common, it's now socially acceptable, and everyone's used to it doesn't mean that it's anything other than that. Hmmm... much like eroding "traditional" values that no one seems to recognize.

I don't think anyone here would condone an abusive spouse or question one's right to leave an abusive relationship, and I'll agree that some of the numbers are because of this type of thing (where it's more acceptable to leave than in other countries). But I also certainly don't think the places we're talking about (Latin America) are so primitive that women are treated as second-class citizens, have less rights than men, or are subjected to any sort of institutionalized genital mutilation. In fact, if I were latino I would be very offended by that sort of implication. I have been to Latin America no less than 12 times (no, that doesn't make me an authority) and have found the people and culture to be remarkable. And certainly the women are cherished and respected. I also know quite a few people from Latin America who are living in this country and they uphold the same traditions and values. Unfortunately, I think you'll find that their children and/or grandchildren most likely will not.

And finally, I think you will find that it is you (and all those who have been outraged in this thread) who is confusing "traditional" and "subservient."

Firstly, you jumped in an answered a question not posed to you. You answered 'how do you measure the breakdown of the American family unit. You came in with your pseudo figures and placed blame at women's feet for filing the lion's share of divorces.

You questioned it when you laid blame on women. Now what that's gotta do with what the 'breakdown' of a family is, is anyone's guess. Is the breakdown the divorce, or is the breakdown what LED to the divorce? A divorce is not necessarily a breakdown in a 'family unit' and for you to try to place blame at women's feet for 80% of divorces is laughable. Who are you to judge why a marriage doesn't work out? Who are you to know what goes on?

Meanwhile, I don't even think that percent is accurate anyways, but that's besides the point because it's not even relevant anyways.

A single woman has no less 'traditional family values' than a married one based on her marital status. You cannot judge someone like that. What is a 'traditional American family' then? Would a widowed mother not be considered any less of a 'real' family than one with a husband? hrmmm???? A family can be quite traditional even if in a home with one parent, and for you to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

the fact is that many American men simply don't WANT to handle American women.

That was YOUR quote, no one else's....and if you wanna play that off like anything other than pure cowardice for not wanting to 'handle' an American woman (as if we are one size fits all) tells me that you're less of an man than you think you are. Women are not 'handled' like cattle...and there are American ones that believe in staying home tending the children, and there are others who would rather excel in a career than motherhood. That's fine. It's called empowerment and the power to choose. There are traditional American women. They are abounding. But if you're looking for a woman in an area that doesn't GIVE women that choice, well then I'd say that makes you a coward because you want a woman who DOESN'T KNOW she has the choice, one who was raised to fit some cookie-cutter stepford mom.

It seems you looked outside your country because you're afraid of an empowered woman, and for that reason, I pity you more than you could know. And an empowered woman is not just the one who chooses a career....it's the one who CHOOSES to be a stay at home mom. She's home tending the children and taking care of the husband because of choice, not because of archaic conditioning.

Well I'm sorry for answering a question that wasn't posed to me. I thought that since it was posted on this message board that it was fair game for everyone. I didn't know the rules.

"Is the breakdown the divorce, or is the breakdown what LED to the divorce?" I think you're missing the point here... it's the same thing! It doesn't matter why the divorce happened (with some reasons being completely justified, as we've said). It doesn't matter if it's the symptom or the disease, it just means that here in the U.S. we have suffered a breakdown of the family.

I'm SO GLAD that you said this. So much so that I had to highlight it. So it doesn't matter who filed, it's the fact that it's ending? Yet, we don't know who is to 'blame' for each individual breakdown. Hrmm...so by your own logic...it could be the man's fault then? Yet you whipped out that '80% were women who filed' as if it means something. Thanks for finally admitting that it's worthless information!

Next!

The use of the word "handling" wasn't mine, but I went with it. And it was not originally used as in to handle cattle but as not being able to take something. So let's not twist the words around to make it sound like something it's not. I see you've done that several times already in this thread.

....yet you did use it! THe use of the word WAS yours...go check your own quote. If you didn't believe in it, you shouldn't have used it.

Oh, hang on, I'm getting zed logic..... someone used it FIRST and you just parroted it, so that means you're not responsible for your words then! Ahh I see!

And again, you're not paying attention, just flying off the handle (no, not like handling cattle). That must be your "empowered" American woman mind (and attitude) again. We've all said that we are for women making their own decisions (work, school, whatever). It's not about choosing to stay at home or choosing to go to work. It's about values and attitudes.

and here's your obvious condescention!! No, you have all not said you are for women choosing to go to work. What you guys have done is throw around words like 'values' and 'attitudes' which amounts to nothing more than middle management doublespeak. What it means, I have no clue because none of you have yet to explain yourselves in a direct and clear manner.

I've asked already repeatedly...whatvalues? what attitudes? To not backtalk? To know her place? To live in a house with 8 other people? To not want a Mercedes? I keep asking yet no one answers....WHAT values? To not dance with other men? Yep, I agree with that. To not shag her best friend & leave her husband? Yep, I agree that that's bad too! Stop talking in circles and enlighten usas to what other women believe in specifically value and attitude wise that eludes the American woman!

So if my fiancee (or Dr. J's, who will also be going to school) CHOOSES to stay at home (although she wants to work) then she'll be doing so because of some "archaic conditioning"? Why don't you go ahead and insult an entire group of women? I already told you that women there work and help support their families. Maybe it's just that they don't fit YOUR cookie-cutter idea of what a woman should be. There goes your "empowered" mind (and attitude) again...

Again, if it's not a 'working outside the home' issue...what is it? What is it value and moral wise that American women don't have? You can insult me with your little barbs and we can do this all week long, but at the end of the day, it's clear you cannot explain what precisely it is that is so foreign to the American woman value system.

Yes, there are traditional American women. But looking for a non-American women does not make me or anyone else a coward. It means that we'd prefer to look somewhere where 80% of the women share the same sets of beliefs, rather than somewhere where 20% of them do.

It does if you're looking for someone to control, someone to fulfil a need to be needed, or someone to be so totally dependant on you that you figure she won't change her mind once she gets here.

Hang on, wasn't that the original question to begin with????

Again, why are you using that 80% figure when according to even you it doesn't even matter who filed for divorce. So by your own admission, this is superfluous information. So what point are you trying to make here? Stop trying to cloud the waters and just explain yourself!

WHAT IS THE AMERICAN WOMAN SPECIFICALLY LACKING VALUE-WISE?

Edited May 11, 2006 by LisaD

[Jaylen Brit 0]

Dr J - if you love and respect your wife and she loves and respects you I dont see you will have too many issues - if you both find living in the US too 'alien' for whatever reason then you can both move to Colombia - Ive heard its a lovely place.

Just remember not to over-generalize about people or 'types; people are people are people and rarely conform to a TYPE- I see some have done this to you and you didn't like it - perhaps you can see why now that others don't.

I hope your future is what you (both) hope for.

Edited May 11, 2006 by Jaylen Brit

[Fandango 1,439]

You know what? I just realized I don't even care anymore. I can't argue logic with someone who doesn't respect American women for the vast and different individuals we are, Just remember this: in 5 years' time *for example* when some other short sighted individual starts slagging off American women as one homogenized being, when this individual starts putting down American women...he'll also be talking about your wife.

Then and only then will you realize how idiotic it sounds.

Good luck with your marriage!

[nayalamb 0]

goodness... it took me ages to read through this thread. i laughed, i shouted, i farted...

i am gonna say my piece before this thread gets deleted and we all get banned for the next 10 years!

and this is not directed at any one person... rather on all the various opinions that are running around this thread...

1) don't start a thread unless you are sure that you are saying what you REALLY mean. otherwise you come off as an idiot. people here are fast with the reply button and will cut you deep if they are offended. so be careful to express yourself with intelligence, and with proper spelling & grammar. if you can't do that, be prepared for the hellfire that comes. on the flipside, give a poster a chance to redeem themselves before stoning him/her to death, esp. if its a newbie. i know its a hot button topic, but damn y'all... give peace a chance!

2) don't base your opinion on some scumbag/skeezer that did you wrong. i've had some of the worst exes in history but (thankfully) they are not representative of an entire nation, race, or gender. and just because you found a wonderful lover in whatever foreign country doesn't mean that that country's men/women are so much better than what you could find in America. gold-digging, cheating, abusive, lying, manipulative people are international and eternal! luck of the draw...

3) don't confuse need with greed. my hubby and i live simply. we have ONE car that gets damn good mileage, a modest apartment, meager possesions. we don't waste money, nor do we hoard it. $35k is a joke. after state, federal, city wage taxes, health, life and car insurance, student loans, electric, gas, water, cable, internet, groceries, diesel, laundry and the occasional $20 at the movies, we'd maybe have enough to maybe buy a 'hot wheels' mercedes. i couldn't tell you the last time i got a manicure. and we for sure don't use credit cards. its debit, cheque or cash! America is a rough place to live, especially in the cities. I don't think anyone on VJ is filthy rich (if so, PM me! ) so the comments on greed were pretty... erm, DUMB, in my opinion since they don't reflect the reality of the everyday Bob in Brooklyn.

4) the world isn't changing. bad marriages have always been around (from Henry VIII to Liz Taylor to J. Lo). the main thing now is more women AND men are not content to spend 50+ years with someone they despise just because society or religion or their family says so. more divorces, so what? that only means you respect marriage enough not to dishonor it by staying with someone you don't love, cherish, trust or respect anymore (or who feels that way about you)! living a lie is not a value!

and for the 'fact-lovers' who think its us women who are wrecking the family...

back in the day, only MEN could divorce their wives, so of course the statistics were low (i wouldn't divorce my cooking, cleaning, baby-machine either)! further, most women did not work and so could not divorce and then be left with no means of income. also, divorce was stigmatized and so was avoided when possible. it wasn't about VALUES... it was about control, economics, and societal pressures!

*by the way... the most divorces now occur in the BIBLE BELT, with people who supposedly are chock-full of values!*

5) i want to work. because i have a brain and i like that i can use it and get money for it. and i can go to bed knowing that if something happens and i (heaven forbid) end up divorced or a widow or my hubby is not able to work anymore, i can survive without depending on welfare, my parents or in a back-breaking low-wage job. i have respect for homemakers, my sister is one. but it doesn't make you more or less than the women who punch a time clock. we all love our families and do what we feel is best for them.

6) American women are not some corrupting, evil group set on destroying hearth and home. If you spread that belief to the women and children that come here, there will continue to be ignorance, bigotry, distrust and misunderstandings. Its a stupid belief, considering the mass amount of Americans that are foreign-born or of foreign-decent. What Americans are you thinking of exactly? Just the rich ones? The white ones? The black ones? The gay ones? The working ones? Treat people like individuals because (duh) that's what they are.

7) Does anyone even know what the **** a feminist IS? here is the definition of feminism; Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes (Amer. Heritage Dict.). Therefore, a feminist has those views. How is that a negative? It doesn't mean that women can't stay home and raise kids. It doesn't mean women can't cook or clean. It means that women are also human beings entitled to love, respect, and opportunities to be educated, employed, worship and participate in politics IF THEY WANT TO. if YOUR wife/fiancee wants to stay home, its her RIGHT. just as its her right to go to school and/or work. and even the OP says his fiancee can do what makes her happy... so in effect, she's already a feminist because she believes in her right to whatever the hell she wants to do!

8) to the OP specifically -- people will change no matter what. if you love her, you will support her and help her adjust to this new life without bombarding her with preconceived notions of what she should or should not be like. the best gift you can give her is to show her that this is a place full of beautiful differences to be respected, not feared or frowned upon. i wish you the best of luck and i hope that between the rants and the giggles, that maybe you got something positive from the replies on this thread.

whew! that was exhausting... feel like i just wrote a masters thesis! i'm off to bed now... no more fighting while i'm gone please...

Edited May 11, 2006 by nayalamb

[aussiewench 9]

and why wasn't I PM'd about this thread

I am not a traditionalist.....nor a feminist.......I am but a wench.