IS YOUR WIFE THE SAME ONCE IN THE USA???

[Fandango 1,439]

oh, and as far as me being ignored...it's all good...cos you can't fight logic so I didn't expect you to dr j

[Traviesa 0]

Dr. J, you come on here spouting family values and respect, love, and all that good stuff...so why do you speak of your wife like she's an object. Does she know that you don't even respect her country and culture enough to know that she's COLOMBIAN, not Spanish? Do you really even know her at all? I would venture to say you don't, if you have to come on here and ask strangers if she, as an individual, is going to change when she comes to the US. I would suggest you get to know her a lot better in that case before you go so far as to start a family with her...if you don't even know her personality, you can't pretend to know her motives... You can't paint everyone with the same brush...I would LOVE to be a stay at home wife and mother but I can promise you that if I need to work to support my family, then I will make that most loving choice for the good of the FAMILY.

[zed2283 1]

Well, I would say that over 50% is a lot. And over 50% of marriages in this country fail. I would call divorce a "major breakdown" in the family unit (I'm surprised you even posed a question with such an obvious answer). And while it does take two to tango, if you do a little research you'll find that 70-80% of divorces are initiated by women. I think you'll also find that those numbers are much, much lower in countries that may be viewed as more traditional. And women in those countries work, just like they do in the U.S. In fact, many times the woman is supporting the family (something most Western women would never tolerate), so it's not like the women there can't be independent if they wanted to.

Most guys who promote "traditional" values are also in favor of women getting an education (like Dr. J said) and working if that's what they want to do. But there is still a fundamental difference in the values that women from traditional countries have when compared to Western women. You don't see it because you don't understand it. But it's obvious to those of us who were brought up in "traditional" families. Of course this doesn't apply to you in particular, or your mother/sister/daughter/best friend, so don't get excited. But the trends are there.

To the guy who made a comment about the stereotypical American man who "can't handle American women," the fact is that many American men simply don't WANT to handle American women. That's why, as my man Dr. J pointed out, there is a growing trend of American men seeking relationships with women from other, more traditional, countries. You can turn it into some sort of psychological babble, but it really boils down to what you value in your relationship.

a family is a lot more than just defined by 'man woman kid' and how DARE you question the morality of the family unit of divorced people.

I'm going to get past the initial outrage at your post & probe this further. Firstly, I can't rattle off the top of my head how many divorces are initiated by men/women...but to place blame *even in a passive aggresive manner* to women for initiating vx% is absolutely short sighted and ignorant. So big whoop, in other countries women don't leave as much. Well, in other countries women are seen and treated as second class citizens, female genital mutilation runs rampant, and women don't have as many rights as their male counterparts. So what's that gotta do with the price of coffee?

I can't tell you why marriages fail, but I certainly wouldn't say that a woman divorcing an abusive husband shows more of a breakdown than a woman staying in an abusive marriage somewhere else because it's not the norm to leave. Which one is more of a 'breakdown'? Personal responsibility is a b!tch, eh?

There's also a difference between 'tradtional' and 'subservient' and I think you're confusing the two,

Who questioned the morality of divorced people? You asked how many American families showed some sort of "major breakdown" and I responded by saying divorce is obviously a "major breakdown." The fact that it's so common, it's now socially acceptable, and everyone's used to it doesn't mean that it's anything other than that. Hmmm... much like eroding "traditional" values that no one seems to recognize.

I don't think anyone here would condone an abusive spouse or question one's right to leave an abusive relationship, and I'll agree that some of the numbers are because of this type of thing (where it's more acceptable to leave than in other countries). But I also certainly don't think the places we're talking about (Latin America) are so primitive that women are treated as second-class citizens, have less rights than men, or are subjected to any sort of institutionalized genital mutilation. In fact, if I were latino I would be very offended by that sort of implication. I have been to Latin America no less than 12 times (no, that doesn't make me an authority) and have found the people and culture to be remarkable. And certainly the women are cherished and respected. I also know quite a few people from Latin America who are living in this country and they uphold the same traditions and values. Unfortunately, I think you'll find that their children and/or grandchildren most likely will not.

And finally, I think you will find that it is you (and all those who have been outraged in this thread) who is confusing "traditional" and "subservient."

Edited May 11, 2006 by zed2283

[ILIKEALLCAPS 0]

right....

The way I see it, there's only 2 ways to make sure your fiancee (it'd actually be 2 "e"s if she's a female) does not change from the sweet and wonderful person you fell in love with.

1. Don't have a relationship with her. Go back in time and prevent yourself from ever meeting her. Just by meeting her you've changed her, and by continuing to have a relationship she will continue to change, thus eroding from the person you've fallen in love with.

2. Kill her and have her stuffed and/or encased in Lucite.

Any other circumstances and she will change. Will that change be for the better? If I could answer that I'd be telling all of you tomorrow's lottery numbers.

[Aymerlu 3]

Oh, I think we need to start a thread about IS YOUR HUSBAND THE SAME ONCE IN THE USA

[Cassie 8]

Any other circumstances and she will change. Will that change be for the better? If I could answer that I'd be telling all of you tomorrow's lottery numbers.

Oh, if you do suddenly manifest the talent of predicting the lotto....PM me, so I don't have to go to work to help pay the bills.

[Leafgal 3]

right....

The way I see it, there's only 2 ways to make sure your fiancee (it'd actually be 2 "e"s if she's a female) does not change from the sweet and wonderful person you fell in love with.

1. Don't have a relationship with her. Go back in time and prevent yourself from ever meeting her. Just by meeting her you've changed her, and by continuing to have a relationship she will continue to change, thus eroding from the person you've fallen in love with.

2. Kill her and have her stuffed and/or encased in Lucite.

Any other circumstances and she will change. Will that change be for the better? If I could answer that I'd be telling all of you tomorrow's lottery numbers.

Ok I have my pen, give those numbers a shot

[Fandango 1,439]

Well, I would say that over 50% is a lot. And over 50% of marriages in this country fail. I would call divorce a "major breakdown" in the family unit (I'm surprised you even posed a question with such an obvious answer). And while it does take two to tango, if you do a little research you'll find that 70-80% of divorces are initiated by women. I think you'll also find that those numbers are much, much lower in countries that may be viewed as more traditional. And women in those countries work, just like they do in the U.S. In fact, many times the woman is supporting the family (something most Western women would never tolerate), so it's not like the women there can't be independent if they wanted to.

Most guys who promote "traditional" values are also in favor of women getting an education (like Dr. J said) and working if that's what they want to do. But there is still a fundamental difference in the values that women from traditional countries have when compared to Western women. You don't see it because you don't understand it. But it's obvious to those of us who were brought up in "traditional" families. Of course this doesn't apply to you in particular, or your mother/sister/daughter/best friend, so don't get excited. But the trends are there.

To the guy who made a comment about the stereotypical American man who "can't handle American women," the fact is that many American men simply don't WANT to handle American women. That's why, as my man Dr. J pointed out, there is a growing trend of American men seeking relationships with women from other, more traditional, countries. You can turn it into some sort of psychological babble, but it really boils down to what you value in your relationship.

a family is a lot more than just defined by 'man woman kid' and how DARE you question the morality of the family unit of divorced people.

I'm going to get past the initial outrage at your post & probe this further. Firstly, I can't rattle off the top of my head how many divorces are initiated by men/women...but to place blame *even in a passive aggresive manner* to women for initiating vx% is absolutely short sighted and ignorant. So big whoop, in other countries women don't leave as much. Well, in other countries women are seen and treated as second class citizens, female genital mutilation runs rampant, and women don't have as many rights as their male counterparts. So what's that gotta do with the price of coffee?

I can't tell you why marriages fail, but I certainly wouldn't say that a woman divorcing an abusive husband shows more of a breakdown than a woman staying in an abusive marriage somewhere else because it's not the norm to leave. Which one is more of a 'breakdown'? Personal responsibility is a b!tch, eh?

There's also a difference between 'tradtional' and 'subservient' and I think you're confusing the two,

Who questioned the morality of divorced people? You asked how many American families showed some sort of "major breakdown" and I responded by saying divorce is obviously a "major breakdown." The fact that it's so common, it's now socially acceptable, and everyone's used to it doesn't mean that it's anything other than that. Hmmm... much like eroding "traditional" values that no one seems to recognize.

I don't think anyone here would condone an abusive spouse or question one's right to leave an abusive relationship, and I'll agree that some of the numbers are because of this type of thing (where it's more acceptable to leave than in other countries). But I also certainly don't think the places we're talking about (Latin America) are so primitive that women are treated as second-class citizens, have less rights than men, or are subjected to any sort of institutionalized genital mutilation. In fact, if I were latino I would be very offended by that sort of implication. I have been to Latin America no less than 12 times (no, that doesn't make me an authority) and have found the people and culture to be remarkable. And certainly the women are cherished and respected. I also know quite a few people from Latin America who are living in this country and they uphold the same traditions and values. Unfortunately, I think you'll find that their children and/or grandchildren most likely will not.

And finally, I think you will find that it is you (and all those who have been outraged in this thread) who is confusing "traditional" and "subservient."

Firstly, you jumped in an answered a question not posed to you. You answered 'how do you measure the breakdown of the American family unit. You came in with your pseudo figures and placed blame at women's feet for filing the lion's share of divorces.

You questioned it when you laid blame on women. Now what that's gotta do with what the 'breakdown' of a family is, is anyone's guess. Is the breakdown the divorce, or is the breakdown what LED to the divorce? A divorce is not necessarily a breakdown in a 'family unit' and for you to try to place blame at women's feet for 80% of divorces is laughable. Who are you to judge why a marriage doesn't work out? Who are you to know what goes on?

Meanwhile, I don't even think that percent is accurate anyways, but that's besides the point because it's not even relevant anyways.

A single woman has no less 'traditional family values' than a married one based on her marital status. You cannot judge someone like that. What is a 'traditional American family' then? Would a widowed mother not be considered any less of a 'real' family than one with a husband? hrmmm???? A family can be quite traditional even if in a home with one parent, and for you to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

the fact is that many American men simply don't WANT to handle American women.

That was YOUR quote, no one else's....and if you wanna play that off like anything other than pure cowardice for not wanting to 'handle' an American woman (as if we are one size fits all) tells me that you're less of an man than you think you are. Women are not 'handled' like cattle...and there are American ones that believe in staying home tending the children, and there are others who would rather excel in a career than motherhood. That's fine. It's called empowerment and the power to choose. There are traditional American women. They are abounding. But if you're looking for a woman in an area that doesn't GIVE women that choice, well then I'd say that makes you a coward because you want a woman who DOESN'T KNOW she has the choice, one who was raised to fit some cookie-cutter stepford mom.

It seems you looked outside your country because you're afraid of an empowered woman, and for that reason, I pity you more than you could know. And an empowered woman is not just the one who chooses a career....it's the one who CHOOSES to be a stay at home mom. She's home tending the children and taking care of the husband because of choice, not because of archaic conditioning.

Edited May 11, 2006 by LisaD

[Ken and Inna 0]

Dr. J

I noticed too that mostly women replied. I agree with you on the femism situation here in America and in fact so does my sister. Sense of family unit has gone to hell in a hand basket here in the good ole USA. All to often marriages do not work out because people do not want to work for it. Anything worth having is worth investing in and nothing good comes free without effort. Now it is true there are some scum bucket men out there, but seems our women prefer these guys...(bad boys). Before anyone stones me (ladies), realize that over 50% of all marriages end in divorce and greater than 80% of divorces are originated by the wifes. I think facts speak for itself. I have been through a marriage here and have been the beneficiary of the typical divorce scenario. Have child, wife cheats and wants something more challenging, divorces me to persue her knight in shining armor. legal nightmare, child support, asset fight, bankruptcy and now our child is in a broken home due to her selfishness. I do not and would not ever say that all our American women are like this, but a growing majority would be a fair statement. Yes I researched the differences in culture and priorities to determine where to look for my significant other...No I do not want her barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, but I do want our priorities to be the same and that is family first and a willingness to be content on NOT perfect because nothing is perfect in this world we live in. So if asking for someone who has similar values, with realistic expectations and a willingness to work for through problems to our common goals makes me a male shovenist pig...so be it...I narry to say though more and more American men are sick of the abuse and are looking elsewhere for something that stands much better chance of success. Good luck DJ with your fiance, and to answer your question...while some changes can be expected, I would not expect a great change in their beliefs and morality stucture...she will always be the same person you met where is counts.

[chocolaterie 0]

Oh, I think we need to start a thread about IS YOUR HUSBAND THE SAME ONCE IN THE USA

too true!!

I often daydream of a time when women were (and will be) in power once again. I hope we have enough sense not to mistake causation with correlation when it comes to problems like divorce. If women initiated the divorce it was probably because they were educated enough to do so. My mother came from communist China, where everyone was oppressed if you were not a part of the elite. I witnessed my father physically and verbally abuse her. The whole time I begged her as a child to divorce him. And she would just cry. Traditional values or not, you have to draw a line somewhere.

There is a high correlation of women from these traditional cultures of not initiating divorce. That is not necessarily caused by traditional values. You have to look at it more in depth and from a larger picture.

[Cassie 8]

*biting tongue after reading Ken's post*

Edited May 11, 2006 by Cassie

[Fandango 1,439]

omG, bitter broken men who just want to feel superior and secure. I'll pray for you all.

[Traviesa 0]

So there's not an American woman around with family values? How about my friend with 2 kids who doesn't leave them with babysitters...or the other one who's devoted her life to the care and education of children, including her own 3. There's 3 of us right here! I think this is more about "getting me one of THOSE" than family values.

[Ken and Inna 0]

I do not condone mis-treating anyone physically, verbally or mentally. anyone who treats another person like that deserves to be divorced. I knew I would offend some when I posted but I did extensive research during and after my divorce. I offer published reliable facts as evidence...not opinions...it just so happens I accept the facts and agree with the findings...our family structure in America is in serious trouble and thats is my point and I am not game for another helping of what I received last time. I love my fiancee with all of my heart and there is nothing in this world I would not do for her and her daughter...I accept them both like a man...the only thing I ask from her is the same committment and love in return...that is what a marriage should be about.

[TracyTN 237]

So there's not an American woman around with family values?

Come on, ladies, don't sweat it so much. You really just have to laugh at them. I find it hysterical. The internet truly does give people balls of steel. No way they'd walk into their corner pub and say this (although I'm sure they claim they would).

No one is really THAT dumb.

Edited May 11, 2006 by TracyTN