Egypt votes to outlaw female circumcision

[kerewin21 2]

And male circumcision was initiated to limit the man's hability to masturbate.

Would it be so much better if circumcision was practiced when these women were babies?

There was a poll right here on VJ, the results showed women prefer their man to be circumcised. Yet, male circumcision is equivalent to type I or II of female circumcision.

Stop both female AND male circumcision!

Saludos,

Caro

I don't think there's any evidence that circumcision was initiated to limit an ability to masturbate. Most people think it came about as a hygienic practice. Male circumcision is NOT equivalent to even Type 1 female genital cutting; type 1 is removal of the clitoral hood. It's a very different story from cutting off the foreskin of the #######. I've done dozens of circumcisions and if you give the baby sugar water they don't even cry.

That being said, maybe male circumcision isn't that humane either, though there is substantial evidence that it decreases transmission of HIV and other STDs.

[JVKn'CVO 11]

And male circumcision was initiated to limit the man's hability to masturbate.

Would it be so much better if circumcision was practiced when these women were babies?

There was a poll right here on VJ, the results showed women prefer their man to be circumcised. Yet, male circumcision is equivalent to type I or II of female circumcision.

Stop both female AND male circumcision!

Saludos,

Caro

I don't think there's any evidence that circumcision was initiated to limit an ability to masturbate. Most people think it came about as a hygienic practice. Male circumcision is NOT equivalent to even Type 1 female genital cutting; type 1 is removal of the clitoral hood. It's a very different story from cutting off the foreskin of the #######. I've done dozens of circumcisions and if you give the baby sugar water they don't even cry.

That being said, maybe male circumcision isn't that humane either, though there is substantial evidence that it decreases transmission of HIV and other STDs.

Please see my previous post on how male circumcision is the equivalent to female circumcision type I or II.

Regarding the origins, since it was started way before the jewish religion, from a sociological point, it is easy to see that it is the other way around.

Source: CIRP.ORG

History of Circumcision

This index page links to material relating to the origin and history of male circumcision. Material is indexed in chronological order of publication.

Introduction

The practice of male genital mutilation is far older than recorded history. Certainly, it is far older than the Biblical account of Abraham (Genesis 17). It seems to have originated in eastern Africa long before this time.6

Many theories have been advanced to explain the origin of genital mutilation. One theory postulates that circumcision began as a way of "purifying" individuals and society by reducing sexuality and sexual pleasure. Human sexuality was seen as dirty or impure in some societies; hence cutting off the pleasure-producing parts was the obvious way to "purify" someone.

It is now known that the male foreskin, or prepuce, is the principal location of erogenous sensation in the human male (see Anatomy.) Removal of the prepuce substantially reduces erogenous sensation.12,16 Therefore (in the appropriate cultural context), circumcision is revealed as a sacrifice of "sinful" human enjoyment (in this earthly life), for the sake of holiness in the afterlife.12

The Jews adopted circumcision as a religious ritual8,10,15,18 and preserved this prehistoric practice into modern times.10,16,18 The circumcision of Abraham removed only the very tip that extended beyond the glans #######.8,17,22,28 Moses and his sons were not circumcised. (Exodus 4:25) Although Moses apparently prohibited circumcision during the 40 years in the wilderness,15,18 (Joshua 5:5) Joshua reinstituted circumcision at Gilgal after the death of Moses.15,18 (Joshua 5:2-10) It is interesting to note that after the Israelites were circumcised, they immediately became soldiers in Joshua's army for the conquest of Palestine. (Joshua 6:1-3)

In contrast to the Jews, the Greeks and the Romans placed a high value on the prepuce.31 The Romans passed several laws to protect the prepuce by prohibiting circumcision.31

Much later in the Hellenic period, about 140 C.E., the circumcision procedure was modified to make it impossible for a Jew to appear to be an uncircumcised Greek.8,18,25 A radical new procedure called peri'ah was introduced by the priests and rabbis. In this procedure the foreskin was stripped away from the glans, with which it is fused in the infant (See Normal.) In a painful procedure known today as a synechotomy, more foreskin was removed than before and the injury was correspondingly greater. With the introduction of peri'ah, the glans could not easily be recovered, and so no Jewish male would easily be able to appear as an uncircumcised Greek.8,18,25

It may have been at this time that the Pondus Judaeus (also known as Judaeum Pondum), a bronze weight worn by Jews on the residual foreskin to stretch it back into a foreskin,8,18,23 gained popularity amongst Jewish males. This lessened the ugly appearance of the bare exposed circumcised #######.18 This restorative procedure was known by the Greek word epispasm,8 or "rolling inward."

The third stage of ritual circumcision, the Messisa or Metzitzah, was not introduced until the Talmudic period (500-625 C.E).8,17,23 In Metzitzah, the mohel (ritual circumciser) sucks blood from the ####### of the circumcised infant with his mouth.31 This procedure has been responsible for the death of many Jewish babies due to infection.13 In modern times, a glass tube is sometimes used instead.

The Reform movement within Judaism considered circumcision to be a cruel practice.17 The Reform movement at Frankfort declared in 1843 that circumcision was not necessary.17,21

The Christians took a strong stand against circumcision in the first century. Christians rejected circumcision at the Council at Jerusalem.17 (Acts 15) St. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, taught parents that they should not circumcise their children. (Acts 21:25) In a reference to the old practices of genital mutilation, St. Paul warned Titus to beware of the "circumcision group." (Titus 1:10-16)

The modern use of Hebrew circumcision as a medicalized practice dates from about 1865 in England and about 1870 in the US.10 The procedure accepted for medical use essentially was the Jewish peri'ah. Moscucci reports that circumcision was imposed in an attempt to prevent masturbation.15 Gollaher further describes the history of medicalized circumcision.10 No scientific studies were carried out to determine the efficacy and safety of circumcision prior to its introduction into medical practice,10 nor were any studies conducted to determine the social effects of imposing genital alteration surgery on a large portion of the population.

Saludos,

Caro

[sarahaziz 0]

It's torture if it's seen in that light. God gave sexual intercourse b/t husband and wife to enjoy each other. Men who are circumcised obviously have not lost pleasure (as you can imagine and go throughout life being healthy and happy) vs a woman being circumcised has lost it.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

I don't think there's any evidence that circumcision was initiated to limit an ability to masturbate.

it sure never stopped me

[S and S 12]

I've never heard of any circumcised male complain about it. None of them seem to have the ill effects of lack of pleasure or desire. I didn't take a survey though, lol.

[JVKn'CVO 11]

It's torture if it's seen in that light. God gave sexual intercourse b/t husband and wife to enjoy each other. Men who are circumcised obviously have not lost pleasure (as you can imagine and go throughout life being healthy and happy) vs a woman being circumcised has lost it.

But they have lost a lot of sensitivity on the head of the #######, since it is a very delicate area that should not be exposed all the time. Of course, men who were circuncised at birth will never complain about it since they don't know what they are missing.

Saludos,

Caro

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

It's torture if it's seen in that light. God gave sexual intercourse b/t husband and wife to enjoy each other. Men who are circumcised obviously have not lost pleasure (as you can imagine and go throughout life being healthy and happy) vs a woman being circumcised has lost it.

But they have lost a lot of sensitivity on the head of the #######, since it is a very delicate area that should not be exposed all the time. Of course, men who were circuncised at birth will never complain about it since they don't know what they are missing.

Saludos,

Caro

but losing sensitivity means more time in the saddle, don't it?

[SaadBell 0]

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/01/2...SHOW_index.html

[Henia 11]

It's torture if it's seen in that light. God gave sexual intercourse b/t husband and wife to enjoy each other. Men who are circumcised obviously have not lost pleasure (as you can imagine and go throughout life being healthy and happy) vs a woman being circumcised has lost it.

But they have lost a lot of sensitivity on the head of the #######, since it is a very delicate area that should not be exposed all the time. Of course, men who were circuncised at birth will never complain about it since they don't know what they are missing.

Saludos,

Caro

With all due respect, I think even this has any shred of truth ... the lose of sensitivity commons nothing to what the woman has lost.

Closing, it would be for betterment of women and the world if such practices as clitorectomy, chasitity belts and hymenoplasty would wipe off the face of the Earth. But that is my just my wishful thinking.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

EGYPT: Parliament criminalizes female circumcision

After weeks of heated deliberations, the Egyptian parliament on Saturday passed new pieces of legislation that impose relatively harsh legal restrictions on female circumcision and allow women for the first time to register their babies even if the father's identity is unknown. One law imposes a sentence of a maximum of two years and a fine of a maximum of $1,000 for performing female genital mutilation. This issue has caused much stir in the people's assembly, especially among the Muslim Brotherhood, which holds one-fifth of the parliamentary seats. Conservatives maintain that Islam condones the removal of a girl's ####### to tame her sexual desires and condemn the amendment as a western import.

Attention-getting opposition to the bill came from an ostensibly secular MP a couple of weeks ago. Mohamed El-Omda, a member of a marginal opposition party, appeared before the people's assembly with his three daughters to protest the ban. One of his young daughters raised a banner reading: "No to any attempt to forbid what is divinely allowed. No to any attempt to allow what is divinely forbidden." El-Omda said that two of his daughters were already circumcised.

Although it was banned years ago, female genital mutilation remains widely practiced in Egypt. About 70% of Egyptian girls are believed to have undergone it. The promulgation of the new penalties came on the heels of the death of a 12-year-old girl in Upper Egypt while undergoing the procedure last summer.

Under the new law, female circumcision remains allowable in cases of "medical necessity."

The other new legislation granted women the right to receive birth certificates for their babies without necessarily giving the father's name. Under the old law, women could not register their out-of-wedlock children. According to women's rights activists, even married mothers face difficulties if they go to register their children without the father.

Islamists dismissed the amendment as enabling the proliferation of prostitution. "If woman carries a child and nobody knows who his father is, this means she is a prostitute," contended a Muslim Brotherhood MP during the deliberations.

The bill's proponents argued that a child should not be caught in the middle of parental feuds and had the right to receive a birth certificate. The amendment may help solve the problem of thousands of children whose fathers refuse to acknowledge them. According to official figures, there were 14,000 paternity cases in Egyptian courts in 2005.

—Noha El-Hennawy in Cairo

Source

Edited June 10, 2008 by Olivia*

[Henia 11]

Under the new law, female circumcision remains allowable in cases of "medical necessity."

I wonder what this necessity could be?

The other new legislation granted women the right to receive birth certificates for their babies without necessarily giving the father's name. Under the old law, women could not register their out-of-wedlock children. According to women's rights activists, even married mothers face difficulties if they go to register their children without the father.

Same here in Algeria, when a women goes to the hospital to give birth ... most hospital will not admit you unless you have a "Livre d'Famille" (family book) When I was hospitalized recently a women almost bleeding to death 'forgot' her book and all the doctors were screaming bloody murder that they will not touch her!

And there are situations where the husband is off working, and not be able to be at the hospital as the women needs.

Islamists dismissed the amendment as enabling the proliferation of prostitution. "If woman carries a child and nobody knows who his father is, this means she is a prostitute," contended a Muslim Brotherhood MP during the deliberations.

Waw, this is very Islamic! Mmmm ... what if she got raped?

The bill's proponents argued that a child should not be caught in the middle of parental feuds and had the right to receive a birth certificate.

Certainly, NO CHILD should be punished for what their parents do ... even Islam says this! Astagfuruallah!

The amendment may help solve the problem of thousands of children whose fathers refuse to acknowledge them. According to official figures, there were 14,000 paternity cases in Egyptian courts in 2005.

Again, same here in Algeria. When we had to go court to obtain the right to marry .... I saw all too many cases where the woman took the man to court to demand the man marry her. Even some cases involving rape.

[Aymerlu 3]

Hello ... Outlaw? Waw FINALLY! Now if they could just outlaw the hymenoplasty trend ... then women of all the world would finally be at peace with the whole virginity thing! Gosh, either he excepts you or he doesn't!

Amen to that! My sister in law is an OB/GYN and she says this trend is way outta control.

[Aymerlu 3]

It's torture if it's seen in that light. God gave sexual intercourse b/t husband and wife to enjoy each other. Men who are circumcised obviously have not lost pleasure (as you can imagine and go throughout life being healthy and happy) vs a woman being circumcised has lost it.

Exactly! Then these men will go out and have other relationships outside marriage because their women don't enjoy sex!

[Henia 11]

Hello ... Outlaw? Waw FINALLY! Now if they could just outlaw the hymenoplasty trend ... then women of all the world would finally be at peace with the whole virginity thing! Gosh, either he excepts you or he doesn't!

Amen to that! My sister in law is an OB/GYN and she says this trend is way outta control.

People just have too much money! And donnot bother to look around to see where this money could be really utilized! Next will be women acting getting into debt for operation! (Like with other cosmetic surgeries)

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

Under the new law, female circumcision remains allowable in cases of "medical necessity."

I wonder what this necessity could be?

i'm still trying to figure that one out too.