Pushing Obama to the left

[GaryC 7]

Hmmm... Europe seems to get by pretty well with its ramshackle collection of backward governments. Imagine that.

Good for them. The people have what they want. That isn't what I want. So therefore my opinion.

Good thing a growing majority of the american public doesnt agree with you.

Bad thing. But I think you have it wrong. We are becoming more conservative not more liberal.

[Peikko 1,575]

Gary, you can read all you like but that doesn't give you a feel for what it actually is like to live in a country that has for example Universal Health Care or accessible education for all. Seeing a policy you believe to be 'backward' or whatever it is that you so vehemently don't want in practice as apposed to some ideological argument is very different. You might even like it if you experienced it, who knows? One thing for sure though, with a head in the sand 'I don't want it even though I haven't tried it' is reminiscent of a 6 year old, not an educated person.

Anyway European governments are many and varied and to just dismiss it as 'disgusting' or whatever goes on in that head of yours is somewhat baffling.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hmmm... Europe seems to get by pretty well with its ramshackle collection of backward governments. Imagine that.

Good for them. The people have what they want. That isn't what I want. So therefore my opinion.

I get your opinion (an opinion that you just admitted is based exclusively on cable - and other news) just not the logical rationale for it.

[Peikko 1,575]

One of my sentences in there might have turned into something unintelligable! I think I need to turn on the grammer and spellchickers.

[Dan J 277]

Hmmm... Europe seems to get by pretty well with its ramshackle collection of backward governments. Imagine that.

Good for them. The people have what they want. That isn't what I want. So therefore my opinion.

Good thing a growing majority of the american public doesnt agree with you.

Bad thing. But I think you have it wrong. We are becoming more conservative not more liberal.

You seriously need to get out more.

[GaryC 7]

Gary, you can read all you like but that doesn't give you a feel for what it actually is like to live in a country that has for example Universal Health Care or accessible education for all. Seeing a policy you believe to be 'backward' or whatever it is that you so vehemently don't want in practice as apposed to some ideological argument is very different. You might even like it if you experienced it, who knows? One thing for sure though, with a head in the sand 'I don't want it even though I haven't tried it' is reminiscent of a 6 year old, not an educated person.

Anyway European governments are many and varied and to just dismiss it as 'disgusting' or whatever goes on in that head of yours is somewhat baffling.

When did I ever say that Europe is "disgusting" or "backwards"? Don't put words in my mouth. If you like the way Europe does their governments then fine, I don't care. This isn't Europe and I hope it never becomes like it.

[GaryC 7]

Hmmm... Europe seems to get by pretty well with its ramshackle collection of backward governments. Imagine that.

Good for them. The people have what they want. That isn't what I want. So therefore my opinion.

I get your opinion (an opinion that you just admitted is based exclusively on cable - and other news) just not the logical rationale for it.

They have a different take on what the role of the government is. I never said it was better or worse, just different. I like the way things are here. That is why I stay here. Each country in Europe can run their affairs the way their people want and thats great. Thats freedom for them. America has a different way of running the government. I happen to like it. That is freedom for me. Why should I want to change it to something I don't want. That is reducing my freedom, right?

[Peikko 1,575]

I am not trying to put words into your mouth, I am trying and failing to understand what is so 'terrible' about Europe that you hope America doesn't become like that? What exactly are you referring to? Do I care, fundamentally if you like Europe or not? Not really, I honestly don't care one way or the other, but if you are prepared to dismiss 'Europe' as somewhere you just 'couldn't bring youself to visit? but certainly not live' then surely you need some actual experience to back this claim up, othewise it's yet another cliched stereotypical response which really doesn't give you a bunch of credance as an expert in comparing societal experiences.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Seriously Gary - this line of reasoning is the sort of thing that Boo-Yah would come up with. Sure you have the right to your opinion - but its not hard to see that the logical and rational basis for it is rather flawed.

[GaryC 7]

I am not trying to put words into your mouth, I am trying and failing to understand what is so 'terrible' about Europe that you hope America doesn't become like that? What exactly are you referring to? Do I care, fundamentally if you like Europe or not? Not really, I honestly don't care one way or the other, but if you are prepared to dismiss 'Europe' as somewhere you just 'couldn't bring youself to visit? but certainly not live' then surely you need some actual experience to back this claim up, othewise it's yet another cliched stereotypical response which really doesn't give you a bunch of credance as an expert in comparing societal experiences.

What??? When did I ever say I wouldn't want to visit Europe?I would love to see my ancestors homelands of Germany, Ireland, England and France. Where do you get these ideas about me? Do you think I live in a box under the stairs and have no conception of the world at large? Do you think I run soley on prejudice and stereotypes? Why the low opinion of me? We may disagree but I would never put you in that kind of a box and make judgments about you. Jeez.

[Peikko 1,575]

I am coming to the conclusion that Gary simply can't see outside his box. I get that he is comfortable with where he is and that's great but I do find it somewhat odd that to be happy he has to have the world his way. Most people learn to compromise, see that no one is always right or always wrong. That views and opinions are shaped by experiences and the more different experiences you have, the more rounded your opinion becomes. The 'us/them' stereotypes are very limited and while they might serve on a message board, they aren't much good in real life, well, not in my experience anyway.

[GaryC 7]

Seriously Gary - this line of reasoning is the sort of thing that Boo-Yah would come up with. Sure you have the right to your opinion - but its not hard to see that the logical and rational basis for it is rather flawed.

What line is that? Why can't I not want the form of government that is prevelent in Europe? Why should I have to be a world traveler to know what I want and not want? I like the way we do things here. That is what I want to continue. What is do damn hard to understand about that?

[amiquechu 0]

Why is Gary so bad for not wanting something he's never experienced? There's enough information out there to form an educated personal opinion about Europe. I've never had a barium enema and I sure as hell wouldn't want to experience one. I guess that makes me close-minded?

[GaryC 7]

I am coming to the conclusion that Gary simply can't see outside his box. I get that he is comfortable with where he is and that's great but I do find it somewhat odd that to be happy he has to have the world his way. Most people learn to compromise, see that no one is always right or always wrong. That views and opinions are shaped by experiences and the more different experiences you have, the more rounded your opinion becomes. The 'us/them' stereotypes are very limited and while they might serve on a message board, they aren't much good in real life, well, not in my experience anyway.

I do just fine in real life. Very well as a matter of fact. And contrary to what you might think I have been a lot of places and seen a lot of things. My passport is full and I consider myself well traveled. I don't put you down for your opinions so please don't put me down for mine.

[Peikko 1,575]

I am not trying to put words into your mouth, I am trying and failing to understand what is so 'terrible' about Europe that you hope America doesn't become like that? What exactly are you referring to? Do I care, fundamentally if you like Europe or not? Not really, I honestly don't care one way or the other, but if you are prepared to dismiss 'Europe' as somewhere you just 'couldn't bring youself to visit? but certainly not live' then surely you need some actual experience to back this claim up, othewise it's yet another cliched stereotypical response which really doesn't give you a bunch of credance as an expert in comparing societal experiences.

What??? When did I ever say I wouldn't want to visit Europe?I would love to see my ancestors homelands of Germany, Ireland, England and France. Where do you get these ideas about me? Do you think I live in a box under the stairs and have no conception of the world at large? Do you think I run soley on prejudice and stereotypes? Why the low opinion of me? We may disagree but I would never put you in that kind of a box and make judgments about you. Jeez.

I put a question mark there because I didn't know, but the vehemence with which you stated your point of view made me wonder if that wasn't what you had in mind. Yes, I do think you have a lot of stereotypes and prejudices - what on earth was that rant in the other thread if not a typical example of that, and yes, to dismiss 'Europe' the way you did comes across as incredibly arrogant and xenophobic. If that isn't the Gary you want to portray then maybe consider expressing yourself in a way that avoids that kind of confusion?

I don't have a low opinion of you, that would be silly, I do think you make some judgements based on limited experience though. Why? Because you say so, not because I pluck this out of thin air. If you find this offensive, well, I am sorry really. I don't have a fixed view of you though, it's not like I think 'jeez, Gary said that, wow, what a wanker!'. I just think 'gosh, wow, really, is that how you think?'