The complexity of the muslim world

[Scott & Lai 12]

of expression. Rather, it is about the abuse of the freedom to spread hate and fuel stereotypes.

Which, again, the Muslim world and their mainstream media is just as guilty of (see the material linked to in the other thread). Haven't seen the angry mobs setting the Qatar and Saudi embassies on fire or kidnapping and killing their people for the Arab MSM publishing slanderous, libelous and hate promoting materials on a regular basis. Haven't seen Christians and Jews with hateful and threatening placards on the streets of Teheran and Riyadh. Haven't seen any religous leaders here calling for the anihilation of the Muslims.

Scrap that holier than thou attitude already if you want to engage in an honest discourse.

I didn't write the article, but mearly posted it as one of the multiple points of view evident in the muslim world. If you click on the link at the top of the article, the author is discussing it on the other forum.

This deep hatred and misunderstanding can only be solved within the muslim community. They need a leader. Once that leader is in place, the world and the world media also have a job to give the peace seekers just as much attention.

The silent majority muslim community needs to find it's voice.

We have plenty of religious scholars who are speaking up and out, but I don't know if their message gets much airtime in the non muslim world.

I know of three people who I would love to take a leadership roll ala Martin Luther King Jr.

Sheikh Qaradawi - One of the most popular clerics in the Middle East. He has the highest rated show on al Jazeera

Tariq Ramadan - definately one of the greatest thinkers in the muslim world today, possibly the greatest muslim thinker in Europe. He explores how one can be both muslim and western and be faithful to both.

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf - Sheikh Hamza has a tremendous following in the American Muslim community. If he speaks at your event, you can guarentee it will be sold out.

There is a genuine struggle going on in the muslim world, with various ideas and opinions being exchanged. I make dua (prayer/supplication) that it is people like the three I mentioned above that will become the most influencial.

It is funny when a muslim says that Americans do not understand Islam. Our nation is full of Islamic peoples. Every person knows someone who is muslim, and no, we do not characterize them as terrorists (by and large). When an extremist muslim kills an American, you do not see us grabbing our nearest muslim neighbor and holding him in front of a camera, then beheading him when we do not get our demands, do you?

Your religion has a cancer. And, in my opinion it is worse then the cancers that exist inside other religions. It is more deadly and aggressive. YOU must WORK to cut it out. Do not expect western culture/people to do it for you. STAND UP in a united cause to save your religion from these dangerous peoples who refuse to live in the present, but stand by ritual and practice from 1000 years ago.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Outrage at a cartoon, yet no outrage for the loss of life...

The way I see it, the faith of the Muslims involved in those violent, hate filled protests is dreadfully weak if they are offended to the point of murderous hatred by a cartoon.

What the extremists refuse to recognise is that it is the battles for free speech and freedom of belief that we fought in the past (against the Church) are what gives them the freedom to practice their religion in this and other western countries. All they are doing is sparking the backlash that could take away those rights (in fact to some extent, this has already happened).

That said however, the cartoons were undeniably offensive and racist. Granted similar material has appeared in the pages of middle-eastern newspapers about other faiths, which is of course inexcusable. Yet its a painful irony that at a time when we are supposedly bridging social and cultural divides (in the words of GWB "Spreading freedom and democracy" across the world) that we are seeing the total antithesis of that goal. Do we really want this war? It seems that there aren't any winners...

While we do enjoy freedom of speech in the US and Europe, I think in this case that the publication of these cartoons was at best ill-advised. In a way its very similar to someone shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre. You may have the right to do it, but the consequences are disastrous.

But I do think (and this is a crucial point for me at least) that it is also racist to talk about a whole group of people (25% of the worlds population) as though they are somehow so "other" that they are beyond the pale of decent expected human behaviour. To do so is to forget that there are progressive liberal-minded people in those countries and communities who are in the front line of being terrorised by the religious bigots in their midst.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Fishdude

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

But I do think (and this is a crucial point for me at least) that it is also racist to talk about a whole group of people (25% of the worlds population) as though they are somehow so "other" that they are beyond the pale of decent expected human behaviour. To do so is to forget that there are progressive liberal-minded people in those countries and communities who are in the front line of being terrorised by the religious bigots in their midst.

That would be wrong. What I am addressing is not the majority of peaceful and life-respecting muslims that go about their daily lives. What I am addressing is the criminal, murderous and terrorizing mob that spreads across the globe. Some people seem to try very hard to make excuses for actions for which there simply is no excuse. Once we can acknowledge that, we can start an honest debate.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Outrage at a cartoon, yet no outrage for the loss of life...

Really.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

But I do think (and this is a crucial point for me at least) that it is also racist to talk about a whole group of people (25% of the worlds population) as though they are somehow so "other" that they are beyond the pale of decent expected human behaviour. To do so is to forget that there are progressive liberal-minded people in those countries and communities who are in the front line of being terrorised by the religious bigots in their midst.

That would be wrong. What I am addressing is not the majority of peaceful and life-respecting muslims that go about their daily lives. What I am addressing is the criminal, murderous and terrorizing mob that spreads across the globe. Some people seem to try very hard to make excuses for actions for which there simply is no excuse. Once we can acknowledge that, we can start an honest debate.

I agree with you in this point. There's no way to excuse the violent behavior of the mobs in the Middle East. However, this is not coming out of a vacuum, but out of years of confrontation on both sides. It's not like the cartoons were the only thing ever said against Muslims in recent years, and it's not like the outrage at the outrage is not somewhat overdrawn as well. The fact that Pit Fortuyn is lauded as some visionary defender of European culture against Islam should be reason enough to step back; the guy was a right-wing nut and the current undifferentiated outcry is playing into the hands of more right-wing nuts.

What the people inciting the mobs want is a culture war, and by generalizing about the current violence as showing the intrinsic backwardness and hate of Western values, the West is taking up the gauntlet and thus doing exactly what the fanatics on both sides want.

The whole situation is complicated enough as things are and it wouldn't hurt to step back and take a couple of deep breaths. I saw an interview with Salman Rushdie yesterday, and guess what? He did not advocate lumping all Muslims together or even to consider the looting and ravishing mob as representative; instead he said what is missing is people who are willing to work on intercultural understanding (on both sides, again). Answering hate with hate has never been the solution and even if this were a manifestation of a clash between religion and enlightenment, the truly enlightened position would not be to be as dogmatic as the religious side.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

What the people inciting the mobs want is a culture war, and by generalizing about the current violence as showing the intrinsic backwardness and hate of Western values, the West is taking up the gauntlet and thus doing exactly what the fanatics on both sides want.

I believe there already is a culture war. The open door policy of the west versus the fundementalist muslim world. The west is winning because who really wants to less rights for women (for one) and fewer freedoms (another). All Muslims don't want this. Just the ones causing the problems.

[JayJay 4]

I have nothing against anyone of any religion - Muslims, Sikhs, everybody is a person to me. In fact because I am not a member of an organized religion, morals are more important to me when forming a friendship, than religious beliefs.

I haven't actually seen any comments on this forumas yet (please correct me if I am wrong) that actually paint ALL Muslims in the same tar that these violent protestors are bringing onto themselves. I HAVE seen a lot of anger against the non-peaceful protestors though. I do hope you're not taking offence to the "protesting against the protesting" that is going on - because honestly, as far as I can tell, it's been kept within pretty decent limits so far. I could be totally wrong, but from what I've seen, nobody's actually said "these Muslims are awful" or "ALL Muslims act like this ALL the time". I have seen people wish that more others were speaking out against the violence though, and that's fair enough - good Lord, do you think for example that New York residents would get away with that kind of violent behaviour?!

Personally I am a non-violent person, and anyone who uses ANYTHING as an excuse to act out and be destructive gets me riled up and fed up. No matter what country they're from. Please don't take that as a tarring of all Muslim people's witht he same brush - I am aware that the key beliefs of the religion are non-violent and intrinsically peaceful.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

What the people inciting the mobs want is a culture war, and by generalizing about the current violence as showing the intrinsic backwardness and hate of Western values, the West is taking up the gauntlet and thus doing exactly what the fanatics on both sides want.

I believe there already is a culture war. The open door policy of the west versus the fundementalist muslim world. The west is winning because who really wants to less rights for women (for one) and fewer freedoms (another). All Muslims don't want this. Just the ones causing the problems.

Stop reading Samuel Huntington and start looking around you. There is no open-door policy in the west (otherwise people could just come to the Western world uninhibited and without going through immigration procedures), and it is imperialist and insulting to assume that it is the job of the west to bring other nations freedom. Same goes for women's right. Talk to some feminists from the Middle East and they would prefer to liberate themselves.

Culture wars don't work and noone will win. The great plan to bring democracy and freedom to the Middle East currently looks like it's doing the exact opposite, namely win over the masses to fanaticism which causes more oppression and less freedom.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

What the people inciting the mobs want is a culture war, and by generalizing about the current violence as showing the intrinsic backwardness and hate of Western values, the West is taking up the gauntlet and thus doing exactly what the fanatics on both sides want.

I believe there already is a culture war. The open door policy of the west versus the fundementalist muslim world. The west is winning because who really wants to less rights for women (for one) and fewer freedoms (another). All Muslims don't want this. Just the ones causing the problems.

Stop reading Samuel Huntington and start looking around you. There is no open-door policy in the west (otherwise people could just come to the Western world uninhibited and without going through immigration procedures), and it is imperialist and insulting to assume that it is the job of the west to bring other nations freedom. Same goes for women's right. Talk to some feminists from the Middle East and they would prefer to liberate themselves.

Culture wars don't work and noone will win. The great plan to bring democracy and freedom to the Middle East currently looks like it's doing the exact opposite, namely win over the masses to fanaticism which causes more oppression and less freedom.

I had to Google ole Samuel. The door is more open here than in the fundementalist Muslim world.

The fanatics think the west is winning and that's why there is all this bad behavior from them. They are trying to turn the tide. (just my opinion)

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

... it is imperialist and insulting to assume that it is the job of the west to bring other nations freedom. Same goes for women's right. Talk to some feminists from the Middle East and they would prefer to liberate themselves.

Culture wars don't work and noone will win. The great plan to bring democracy and freedom to the Middle East currently looks like it's doing the exact opposite, namely win over the masses to fanaticism which causes more oppression and less freedom.

I agree with that. We can't force our (relatively) open society model on other cultures. Ain't gonna fly. They'll have to find their own voices and ways. What we can and (imho) need to do is stand up to their radical elements on our soil and leve the standing up to the fanatics on their soil to them. We ought not to tolerate or excuse in any way, shape or form the radical haters that run around terrorizing our streets or trying to tell us how to live our lives - or rather trying to scare us into submission. We ought to stand firm and defend our ways of life here and let them find theirs there...

Edited February 7, 2006 by ET-US2004

[munchkins 0]

... it is imperialist and insulting to assume that it is the job of the west to bring other nations freedom. Same goes for women's right. Talk to some feminists from the Middle East and they would prefer to liberate themselves.

Culture wars don't work and noone will win. The great plan to bring democracy and freedom to the Middle East currently looks like it's doing the exact opposite, namely win over the masses to fanaticism which causes more oppression and less freedom.

I agree with that. We can't force our (relatively) open society model on other cultures. Ain't gonna fly. They'll have to find their own voices and ways. What we can and (imho) need to do is stand up to their radical elements on our soil and leve the standing up to the fanatics on their soil to them. We ought not to tolerate or excuse in any way, shape or form the radical haters that run around terrorizing our streets or trying to tell us how to live our lives - or rather trying to scare us into submission. We ought to stand firm and defend our ways of life here and let them find theirs there...

[Fischkoepfin 1]

What the people inciting the mobs want is a culture war, and by generalizing about the current violence as showing the intrinsic backwardness and hate of Western values, the West is taking up the gauntlet and thus doing exactly what the fanatics on both sides want.

I believe there already is a culture war. The open door policy of the west versus the fundementalist muslim world. The west is winning because who really wants to less rights for women (for one) and fewer freedoms (another). All Muslims don't want this. Just the ones causing the problems.

Stop reading Samuel Huntington and start looking around you. There is no open-door policy in the west (otherwise people could just come to the Western world uninhibited and without going through immigration procedures), and it is imperialist and insulting to assume that it is the job of the west to bring other nations freedom. Same goes for women's right. Talk to some feminists from the Middle East and they would prefer to liberate themselves.

Culture wars don't work and noone will win. The great plan to bring democracy and freedom to the Middle East currently looks like it's doing the exact opposite, namely win over the masses to fanaticism which causes more oppression and less freedom.

I had to Google ole Samuel. The door is more open here than in the fundementalist Muslim world.

The fanatics think the west is winning and that's why there is all this bad behavior from them. They are trying to turn the tide. (just my opinion)

I think so too; the whole reaction has to do something with fear in the Middle East and certainly in the West. But if the West behaves as boneheaded as the fanatics, then the fanatics will be more likely to succeed.

... it is imperialist and insulting to assume that it is the job of the west to bring other nations freedom. Same goes for women's right. Talk to some feminists from the Middle East and they would prefer to liberate themselves.

Culture wars don't work and noone will win. The great plan to bring democracy and freedom to the Middle East currently looks like it's doing the exact opposite, namely win over the masses to fanaticism which causes more oppression and less freedom.

I agree with that. We can't force our (relatively) open society model on other cultures. Ain't gonna fly. They'll have to find their own voices and ways. What we can and (imho) need to do is stand up to their radical elements on our soil and leve the standing up to the fanatics on their soil to them. We ought not to tolerate or excuse in any way, shape or form the radical haters that run around terrorizing our streets or trying to tell us how to live our lives - or rather trying to scare us into submission. We ought to stand firm and defend our ways of life here and let them find theirs there...

Agreed. I have no problem with that at all. If they live in Europe or the US then they need to respect the human dignity of their hosts; on the other hand, Europeans and Americans need to respect the human dignity of their immigrants as well, meaning there is no reason why people shouldn't protest, as long as they don't threaten revenge or violence...

edit: I hate the fact that the replies now get lumped together. Sorry about that.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Fischkoepfin

[almaty 19]

someone like the Pope in Roman Catholic ?

Not really......I think this movement needs to come from the ground up and a leader will emerge.

Merc..who is the leader of all christians? and all jews? it is more complex than that...who is the leader of black america? hispanic america? ....i do not think there will be one voice for muslims...as i don't think there will ever be one voice for all christians...too many differneces in dogma..

Edited February 7, 2006 by almaty2004

[mercuryroad 0]

someone like the Pope in Roman Catholic ?

Not really......I think this movement needs to come from the ground up and a leader will emerge.

Merc..who is the leader of all christians? and all jews? it is more complex than that...who is the leader of black america? hispanic america? ....i do not think there will be one voice for muslims...as i don't think there will ever be one voice for all christians...too many differneces in dogma..

Agreed.....I was thinking more of a new voice that emerges that will appeal to a large number of muslims. Certainly not everyone would follow or believe but there are some people that just seem to have the power to bring people together and make the world listen. I think that is desperately needed right now and I think it will come.

Martin Luthor King Jr. was not a leader of all Christians but there was a lot of people that listened to what he had to say. I think the leader in that part of the world would not have to represent muslims.....simply represent peace in a very vocal and visible way. A leader is needed that people can rally around to end the type of violence that is crippling their position in the world.

Imagine a million muslim march on Tehran calling for an end to their nuclear program.......would you be shocked? Probably.....the question is why would you be shocked?

[junglee069 0]

why would they want an end to their nuclear program?

someone like the Pope in Roman Catholic ?

Not really......I think this movement needs to come from the ground up and a leader will emerge.

Merc..who is the leader of all christians? and all jews? it is more complex than that...who is the leader of black america? hispanic america? ....i do not think there will be one voice for muslims...as i don't think there will ever be one voice for all christians...too many differneces in dogma..

Agreed.....I was thinking more of a new voice that emerges that will appeal to a large number of muslims. Certainly not everyone would follow or believe but there are some people that just seem to have the power to bring people together and make the world listen. I think that is desperately needed right now and I think it will come.

Martin Luthor King Jr. was not a leader of all Christians but there was a lot of people that listened to what he had to say. I think the leader in that part of the world would not have to represent muslims.....simply represent peace in a very vocal and visible way. A leader is needed that people can rally around to end the type of violence that is crippling their position in the world.

Imagine a million muslim march on Tehran calling for an end to their nuclear program.......would you be shocked? Probably.....the question is why would you be shocked?