Lets disect Oblahma speech, shall we!

[Peikko 1,575]

I believe that the $2 trillion spent in Iraq would have been better spent on solar and wind projects, and on nuclear reactors.

You got to stop that, that sounds like good old common sense, and we Americans don't like that kinda of thing.

What about all the poor little land dwelling creatures who make their homes there? Let alone the possibilties of wiping out tumble weeds and other plant life. If you respect the land and caibou in Alaska you gotta respect it everywhere. A wind turbine farm would take up way more land than a couple oil rigs!

Well... you can build wind farms out at sea...

What if there is a malfuntion and the water shorts out the turbine and electricutes thousands of fish. Let alone all the por birds the blades will surely kill. The enviromental "DOG" Dont hunt my freind.

That's a big "what if".

Not to mention a complete misunderstanding of what environmentalists stand for. It's not a question of saving individuals but rather saving the environment which houses a complete econsystem and the resulting bio diversity. So, while the loss of a few 'poor' birds is regrettable, in the big picture the individuals are expendable. However, should the windfarms endanger the bird's habitat or for some reason they singled out a particular species and decimated it, that would and should be a different story.

[HAL 9000 96]

Not to mention that a logical placement of things such as wind turbines tends to occur with consultation of ornithologists that happen to try to minimize losses by indicating the general location of bird migratory patterns.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Not to mention that a logical placement of things such as wind turbines tends to occur with consultation of ornithologists that happen to try to minimize losses by indicating the general location of bird migratory patterns.

And "big oil" love spills?

I guess some dead birds are okay! Right?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not to mention that a logical placement of things such as wind turbines tends to occur with consultation of ornithologists that happen to try to minimize losses by indicating the general location of bird migratory patterns.

And "big oil" love spills?

I guess some dead birds are okay! Right?

Well in all honesty - Oil spills do quite a bit more damage than just a few dead birds.

[HAL 9000 96]

Not to mention that a logical placement of things such as wind turbines tends to occur with consultation of ornithologists that happen to try to minimize losses by indicating the general location of bird migratory patterns.

And "big oil" love spills?

I guess some dead birds are okay! Right?

Well in all honesty - Oil spills do quite a bit more damage than just a few dead birds.

That's right.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not to mention that a logical placement of things such as wind turbines tends to occur with consultation of ornithologists that happen to try to minimize losses by indicating the general location of bird migratory patterns.

And "big oil" love spills?

I guess some dead birds are okay! Right?

Well in all honesty - Oil spills do quite a bit more damage than just a few dead birds.

That's right.

I'm having a hard time rationalising the cons of your average wind-farm, and the Exxon Valdez disaster in Port William Sound.

[HAL 9000 96]

Not to mention that a logical placement of things such as wind turbines tends to occur with consultation of ornithologists that happen to try to minimize losses by indicating the general location of bird migratory patterns.

And "big oil" love spills?

I guess some dead birds are okay! Right?

Well in all honesty - Oil spills do quite a bit more damage than just a few dead birds.

That's right.

I'm having a hard time rationalising the cons of your average wind-farm, and the Exxon Valdez disaster in Port William Sound.

Well let me see... here's one for oil spills.

And the pdf files for wind turbines I see show kill rates of less than 10 birds per year per farm- while oil spills typically offer bird kill rates in the thousands. Not counting of course, fish kills and subsequent bird kills from having an impacted food supply.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Not to mention that a logical placement of things such as wind turbines tends to occur with consultation of ornithologists that happen to try to minimize losses by indicating the general location of bird migratory patterns.

And "big oil" love spills?

I guess some dead birds are okay! Right?

Well in all honesty - Oil spills do quite a bit more damage than just a few dead birds.

That's right.

I'm having a hard time rationalising the cons of your average wind-farm, and the Exxon Valdez disaster in Port William Sound.

Well let me see... here's one for oil spills.

And the pdf files for wind turbines I see show kill rates of less than 10 birds per year per farm- while oil spills typically offer bird kill rates in the thousands. Not counting of course, fish kills and subsequent bird kills from having an impacted food supply.

You musta missed it! here ya go.

Big California Wind Farm Wrestles with Bird Deaths

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USA: May 16, 2005

SAN FRANCISCO - California's push to add more renewable electricity to the state's power grid is pressuring wind power developers to reduce the number of birds killed each year at one of the biggest wind farms in the United States.

Wind companies like FPL Energy, wildlife groups and the US Fish and Wildlife Service are trying to agree on ways to lower the risk for birds flying into big spinning turbine blades at the 584-megawatt Altamont Pass wind center in rolling hills about 50 miles east of San Francisco.

Altamont Pass, which produces wind power for sale to Pacific Gas & Electric Co., a unit of PG&E Corp. is along a migratory path for raptors and near a nesting area for golden eagles.

One megawatt of wind energy can power about 250 to 300 homes with no emissions.

A study last year by the California Energy Commission estimated that up to 4,720 birds from 40 different species are killed each year at the wind farm, including as many as 1,300 protected raptors.

The yearly death toll includes more than 100 golden eagles plus red-tailed hawks, burrowing owls, kestrels, and meadowlarks, according to the Audubon Society.

From your article:"In the many spills we've worked on in the past 10 years, we have cared for more than 6,000 oiled birds, and have refined our practices to the point where we typically are able to save at least half of the live birds we find," Ziccardi said. "However, in this spill, something unusual is happening. It's frustrating because we don't know what it is. We are losing a lot of birds."

Geez all you need to do now is figure out how to reasseble the birds. BEING GREEN KILLS! 1300 Deaths of birds that are on the endangered species list? Shouldnt someone be goin to jail for that?

[SMOKE 1,426]

Geez all you need to do now is figure out how to reasseble the birds. BEING GREEN KILLS! 1300 Deaths of birds that are on the endangered species list? Shouldnt someone be goin to jail for that?

1301 if one of them chits on my car.

[HAL 9000 96]

Interesting points, Marc. I guess you missed the part where the UC Davis team previously cared for X amount of fowl, giving them practice to presently (in 2005, year of the article) work in trying to save the numbers at the center of the actual article... yet more than half expired. I won't insult your known lack of comprehension this time since it apparently feeds the ego part of your mind more than actual factual information... but...

precisely concerning is the part where LOGICAL wind farm designs are supposed to be executed in areas where migratory patterns do not impact birds as the case arises in the article you cite. Frankly, kill rates and actual numbers can vary by location.

eta: highlighting the important parts.

Edited June 4, 2008 by maviwaro

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Geez all you need to do now is figure out how to reasseble the birds. BEING GREEN KILLS! 1300 Deaths of birds that are on the endangered species list? Shouldnt someone be goin to jail for that?

1301 if one of them chits on my car.

Interesting points, Marc. I guess you missed the part where the UC Davis team previously cared for X amount of fowl, giving them practice to presently (in 2005, year of the article) work in trying to save the numbers at the center of the actual article... yet more than half expired. I won't insult your known lack of comprehension this time since it apparently feeds the ego part of your mind more than actual factual information... but...

precisely concerning is the part where LOGICAL wind farm designs are supposed to be executed in areas where migratory patterns do not impact birds as the case arises in the article you cite. Frankly, kill rates and actual numbers can vary by location.eta: highlighting the important parts.

my point is, and you know it! is that both oil spills and wind farms kill! As nasty as oil spills are mom nature tends to do a pretty good job overtime. The wind farms at this very moment are chopping up birds at a "CONSTANT" rate! Mom nature wont be healing that now will she?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Geez all you need to do now is figure out how to reasseble the birds. BEING GREEN KILLS! 1300 Deaths of birds that are on the endangered species list? Shouldnt someone be goin to jail for that?

1301 if one of them chits on my car.

Interesting points, Marc. I guess you missed the part where the UC Davis team previously cared for X amount of fowl, giving them practice to presently (in 2005, year of the article) work in trying to save the numbers at the center of the actual article... yet more than half expired. I won't insult your known lack of comprehension this time since it apparently feeds the ego part of your mind more than actual factual information... but...

precisely concerning is the part where LOGICAL wind farm designs are supposed to be executed in areas where migratory patterns do not impact birds as the case arises in the article you cite. Frankly, kill rates and actual numbers can vary by location.eta: highlighting the important parts.

my point is, and you know it! is that both oil spills and wind farms kill! As nasty as oil spills are mom nature tends to do a pretty good job overtime. The wind farms at this very moment are chopping up birds at a "CONSTANT" rate! Mom nature wont be healing that now will she?

Right. But the risks posed to wild-life by wind farms are not proportional, or equivalent to the risks posed by oil spills. In fact as far as oil goes spills and slicks aren't the only danger posed to wildlife from that particular activity. There are a whole rash of environmental hazards involved in the exploration, extraction and transportation process.

So while your point is "is that both oil spills and wind farms kill" what is the broader argument you are making here? That because wind farms *can* turn birds into sushi (and thus have some impact on the environment) that we shouldn't bother with any form of alternative energy at all?

Edited June 4, 2008 by Number 6

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Geez all you need to do now is figure out how to reasseble the birds. BEING GREEN KILLS! 1300 Deaths of birds that are on the endangered species list? Shouldnt someone be goin to jail for that?

1301 if one of them chits on my car.

Interesting points, Marc. I guess you missed the part where the UC Davis team previously cared for X amount of fowl, giving them practice to presently (in 2005, year of the article) work in trying to save the numbers at the center of the actual article... yet more than half expired. I won't insult your known lack of comprehension this time since it apparently feeds the ego part of your mind more than actual factual information... but...

precisely concerning is the part where LOGICAL wind farm designs are supposed to be executed in areas where migratory patterns do not impact birds as the case arises in the article you cite. Frankly, kill rates and actual numbers can vary by location.eta: highlighting the important parts.

my point is, and you know it! is that both oil spills and wind farms kill! As nasty as oil spills are mom nature tends to do a pretty good job overtime. The wind farms at this very moment are chopping up birds at a "CONSTANT" rate! Mom nature wont be healing that now will she?

Right. But the risks posed to wild-life by wind farms are not proportional, or equivalent to the risks posed by oil spills. In fact as far as oil goes spills and slicks aren't the only danger posed to wildlife from that particular activity. There are a whole rash of environmental hazards involved in the exploration, extraction and transportation process.

So while your point is "is that both oil spills and wind farms kill" what is the broader argument you are making here? That because wind farms *can* turn birds into sushi (and thus have some impact on the environment) that we shouldn't bother with any form of alternative energy at all?

My point is to do both sensibly.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Even if they do both sensibly - oil is still going to be (a lot) more hazardous to wildlife.

[HAL 9000 96]

Geez all you need to do now is figure out how to reasseble the birds. BEING GREEN KILLS! 1300 Deaths of birds that are on the endangered species list? Shouldnt someone be goin to jail for that?

1301 if one of them chits on my car.

Interesting points, Marc. I guess you missed the part where the UC Davis team previously cared for X amount of fowl, giving them practice to presently (in 2005, year of the article) work in trying to save the numbers at the center of the actual article... yet more than half expired. I won't insult your known lack of comprehension this time since it apparently feeds the ego part of your mind more than actual factual information... but...

precisely concerning is the part where LOGICAL wind farm designs are supposed to be executed in areas where migratory patterns do not impact birds as the case arises in the article you cite. Frankly, kill rates and actual numbers can vary by location.eta: highlighting the important parts.

my point is, and you know it! is that both oil spills and wind farms kill! As nasty as oil spills are mom nature tends to do a pretty good job overtime. The wind farms at this very moment are chopping up birds at a "CONSTANT" rate! Mom nature wont be healing that now will she?

She can't heal poisoned birds, nor the ones that starve to death from decreased food chain availability.

The rest is more or less there in your reasoning. Hence the placement of these wind farms where there are minor migratory patterns.

Believe it or not, birdbrains are not as stupid as you may think. Birds are smart enough to avoid certain landmarks, including windmill shapes. Oil spills otoh, are more difficult to spot from the air for birds.