ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS? AMNESTY? SORRY, WAIT IN LINE

[Ban Hammer 13,206]

It would help if the US didn't have policies that cripples Mexico's economy in many ways.

more "it's the fault of the white man!" oh please

As promised. Not that there was blaming one racial group, btw.

check out the racial makeup of the usa and then get back with me - saying it's the fault of the usa is pretty much blaming white people.

That is an exceedingly lame reply. (= apples)

Somehow that racial makeup is going to matter less and less anyway. When was it that whites where going to be a minority in this country anyway? And white conservative males for that matter?

As for the post itself... (= oranges)... its a nation to nation kind of thing. You know, since there are so many people here that hate on "illegal" immigration all the while calling out a silly race lame card when it suits them. Fancy thing is that its the policies of one nation that are to be looked at, not the racial makeup of either one.

label it however you wish, that's just your opinion which carries no more weight than mine. imo it is still more blame america, blame whitey, and so on. blaming america is nothing more than sound bites and rhetoric, no hard facts but lots of hot air.

[Nessa 23]

I can't believbe the OP. How dare someone trash those poor immigrants. Don't you know that they have family, they're poor, it's not their fault. They're forced to break into the states, commit the crimes, murder, etc they do. It's all for a good cause. At least for them. I don't see anyone starting a thread trashing Hitler for commiting the crimes he did for his good cause.

You all disgust me!

[almaty 19]

[HAL 9000 96]

It would help if the US didn't have policies that cripples Mexico's economy in many ways.

more "it's the fault of the white man!" oh please

As promised. Not that there was blaming one racial group, btw.

check out the racial makeup of the usa and then get back with me - saying it's the fault of the usa is pretty much blaming white people.

That is an exceedingly lame reply. (= apples)

Somehow that racial makeup is going to matter less and less anyway. When was it that whites where going to be a minority in this country anyway? And white conservative males for that matter?

As for the post itself... (= oranges)... its a nation to nation kind of thing. You know, since there are so many people here that hate on "illegal" immigration all the while calling out a silly race lame card when it suits them. Fancy thing is that its the policies of one nation that are to be looked at, not the racial makeup of either one.

label it however you wish, that's just your opinion which carries no more weight than mine. imo it is still more blame america, blame whitey, and so on. blaming america is nothing more than sound bites and rhetoric, no hard facts but lots of hot air.

Which is the difference, Charles. You claim its a blame game- and nothing gets done. I claim we should be held accountable for our actions abroad- and mostly nothing gets done... but given enough people claiming we play fair, and eventually those that want to have their cake and eat it too will not be able to get away with being naughty.

Hopefully your line of thought is limited to older, non-progressive generations. Granted, its quite a hard wall to topple! Ignorance and apathy usually are.

[Ban Hammer 13,206]

It would help if the US didn't have policies that cripples Mexico's economy in many ways.

more "it's the fault of the white man!" oh please

As promised. Not that there was blaming one racial group, btw.

check out the racial makeup of the usa and then get back with me - saying it's the fault of the usa is pretty much blaming white people.

That is an exceedingly lame reply. (= apples)

Somehow that racial makeup is going to matter less and less anyway. When was it that whites where going to be a minority in this country anyway? And white conservative males for that matter?

As for the post itself... (= oranges)... its a nation to nation kind of thing. You know, since there are so many people here that hate on "illegal" immigration all the while calling out a silly race lame card when it suits them. Fancy thing is that its the policies of one nation that are to be looked at, not the racial makeup of either one.

label it however you wish, that's just your opinion which carries no more weight than mine. imo it is still more blame america, blame whitey, and so on. blaming america is nothing more than sound bites and rhetoric, no hard facts but lots of hot air.

Which is the difference, Charles. You claim its a blame game- and nothing gets done. I claim we should be held accountable for our actions abroad- and mostly nothing gets done... but given enough people claiming we play fair, and eventually those that want to have their cake and eat it too will not be able to get away with being naughty.

Hopefully your line of thought is limited to older, non-progressive generations. Granted, its quite a hard wall to topple! Ignorance and apathy usually are.

still hot air. where's the proof we've done something wrong in mexico, a soverign nation in charge of it's own destiny?

eta: agreed.

Edited May 29, 2008 by charlesandnessa

[HAL 9000 96]

It would help if the US didn't have policies that cripples Mexico's economy in many ways.

more "it's the fault of the white man!" oh please

As promised. Not that there was blaming one racial group, btw.

check out the racial makeup of the usa and then get back with me - saying it's the fault of the usa is pretty much blaming white people.

That is an exceedingly lame reply. (= apples)

Somehow that racial makeup is going to matter less and less anyway. When was it that whites where going to be a minority in this country anyway? And white conservative males for that matter?

As for the post itself... (= oranges)... its a nation to nation kind of thing. You know, since there are so many people here that hate on "illegal" immigration all the while calling out a silly race lame card when it suits them. Fancy thing is that its the policies of one nation that are to be looked at, not the racial makeup of either one.

label it however you wish, that's just your opinion which carries no more weight than mine. imo it is still more blame america, blame whitey, and so on. blaming america is nothing more than sound bites and rhetoric, no hard facts but lots of hot air.

Which is the difference, Charles. You claim its a blame game- and nothing gets done. I claim we should be held accountable for our actions abroad- and mostly nothing gets done... but given enough people claiming we play fair, and eventually those that want to have their cake and eat it too will not be able to get away with being naughty.

Hopefully your line of thought is limited to older, non-progressive generations. Granted, its quite a hard wall to topple! Ignorance and apathy usually are.

still hot air. where's the proof we've done something wrong in mexico, a soverign nation in charge of it's own destiny?

eta: agreed.

God where do we start?

NAFTA, maquiladoras with US shareholders, wealthy oligarchs that enjoy beneficial relationships with our companies that receive biz incentives to do biz at an advantage to their interests and inversely detrimental to the local economies? The list goes on. Things that we can control from our end by actually being transparent in our biz practices and in how we regulate such activities. Mercantile regulation overseas in many cases is subject to governmental oversight.

Blaming (once again as you do) the mexican power structure is only part of the equation.

[Ban Hammer 13,206]

It would help if the US didn't have policies that cripples Mexico's economy in many ways.

more "it's the fault of the white man!" oh please

As promised. Not that there was blaming one racial group, btw.

check out the racial makeup of the usa and then get back with me - saying it's the fault of the usa is pretty much blaming white people.

That is an exceedingly lame reply. (= apples)

Somehow that racial makeup is going to matter less and less anyway. When was it that whites where going to be a minority in this country anyway? And white conservative males for that matter?

As for the post itself... (= oranges)... its a nation to nation kind of thing. You know, since there are so many people here that hate on "illegal" immigration all the while calling out a silly race lame card when it suits them. Fancy thing is that its the policies of one nation that are to be looked at, not the racial makeup of either one.

label it however you wish, that's just your opinion which carries no more weight than mine. imo it is still more blame america, blame whitey, and so on. blaming america is nothing more than sound bites and rhetoric, no hard facts but lots of hot air.

Which is the difference, Charles. You claim its a blame game- and nothing gets done. I claim we should be held accountable for our actions abroad- and mostly nothing gets done... but given enough people claiming we play fair, and eventually those that want to have their cake and eat it too will not be able to get away with being naughty.

Hopefully your line of thought is limited to older, non-progressive generations. Granted, its quite a hard wall to topple! Ignorance and apathy usually are.

still hot air. where's the proof we've done something wrong in mexico, a soverign nation in charge of it's own destiny?

eta: agreed.

God where do we start?

NAFTA, maquiladoras with US shareholders, wealthy oligarchs that enjoy beneficial relationships with our companies that receive biz incentives to do biz at an advantage to their interests and inversely detrimental to the local economies? The list goes on. Things that we can control from our end by actually being transparent in our biz practices and in how we regulate such activities. Mercantile regulation overseas in many cases is subject to governmental oversight.

Blaming (once again as you do) the mexican power structure is only part of the equation.

so what is the usa supposed to do about that? invade mexico?

mexico is in charge of their own destiny. no one else. the citizens of mexico need to address their concern via the ballot if they want change. blaming the usa for what their country does is smoke and mirrors.

[HAL 9000 96]

It would help if the US didn't have policies that cripples Mexico's economy in many ways.

more "it's the fault of the white man!" oh please

As promised. Not that there was blaming one racial group, btw.

check out the racial makeup of the usa and then get back with me - saying it's the fault of the usa is pretty much blaming white people.

That is an exceedingly lame reply. (= apples)

Somehow that racial makeup is going to matter less and less anyway. When was it that whites where going to be a minority in this country anyway? And white conservative males for that matter?

As for the post itself... (= oranges)... its a nation to nation kind of thing. You know, since there are so many people here that hate on "illegal" immigration all the while calling out a silly race lame card when it suits them. Fancy thing is that its the policies of one nation that are to be looked at, not the racial makeup of either one.

label it however you wish, that's just your opinion which carries no more weight than mine. imo it is still more blame america, blame whitey, and so on. blaming america is nothing more than sound bites and rhetoric, no hard facts but lots of hot air.

Which is the difference, Charles. You claim its a blame game- and nothing gets done. I claim we should be held accountable for our actions abroad- and mostly nothing gets done... but given enough people claiming we play fair, and eventually those that want to have their cake and eat it too will not be able to get away with being naughty.

Hopefully your line of thought is limited to older, non-progressive generations. Granted, its quite a hard wall to topple! Ignorance and apathy usually are.

still hot air. where's the proof we've done something wrong in mexico, a soverign nation in charge of it's own destiny?

eta: agreed.

God where do we start?

NAFTA, maquiladoras with US shareholders, wealthy oligarchs that enjoy beneficial relationships with our companies that receive biz incentives to do biz at an advantage to their interests and inversely detrimental to the local economies? The list goes on. Things that we can control from our end by actually being transparent in our biz practices and in how we regulate such activities. Mercantile regulation overseas in many cases is subject to governmental oversight.

Blaming (once again as you do) the mexican power structure is only part of the equation.

so what is the usa supposed to do about that? invade mexico?

mexico is in charge of their own destiny. no one else. the citizens of mexico need to address their concern via the ballot if they want change. blaming the usa for what their country does is smoke and mirrors.

You keep bringing up irrelevant questions that are off the mark Charles.

And I will answer my opinion here as well-

Its not about punitively invading as if we were the saviors. Its modification of our business practices so that those that act above the electoral system do not continue to perpetuate their power base so as to act impune to the democratic sentiment of their constituencies.

You are the only one claiming its a 'blame game.' That is fuzzy, escapist logic.

It should be more about focusing on changing the way we encourage local economic structures to dominate local markets. Creating inequalities abroad that create secondary immigration problems for some people in the USA.

[SaadBell 0]

It should be more about focusing on changing the way we encourage local economic structures to dominate local markets. Creating inequalities abroad that create secondary immigration problems for some people in the USA.

The whole thing saddens me, and yes some immigrants should be given amnesty, we are all immigrants really.

[HAL 9000 96]

It should be more about focusing on changing the way we encourage local economic structures to dominate local markets. Creating inequalities abroad that create secondary immigration problems for some people in the USA.

The whole thing saddens me, and yes some immigrants should be given amnesty, we are all immigrants really.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I find it pathetic that there are people staunchly opposed to extending basic human decency to others based on their having crossed our border under cover of night. Yes... most should probably be repatriated one way or another. This will not fix the problem and people in need will always find a way to get what they need.

Fine to enforce current law. That is common sense. Common sense also dictates problems have their causes. We have the ability to correct the problem. But many are opposed because it goes contrary to one simple fact: PROFIT.

[SMB x2 0]

I don't normally jump into these kinds of threads and I'm not sure if this has been posted yet or not, but thought this guy makes some interesting points about illegal immigration. Hope it's ok to post this here instead of making a whole new thread.

-Shannon

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/28/beck.immi...kers/index.html

NEW YORK (CNN) -- "Jobs Americans just won't do."

I can't stand that line, but more importantly, I don't even understand it.

Americans spend months at a time at sea fishing for crab or drilling for oil; two of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Americans clean bathrooms, subway stations and crime scenes. Americans man toll booths, pave roads, embalm bodies and inspect sewers. Yet people really expect us to believe that they won't pick strawberries or oranges?

It just doesn't add up.

Earlier this week The Wall Street Journal published a story about a shortage of H-2B visas, which are issued twice a year to nonagricultural seasonal employees. Because our government can't get out of its own way, they recently let an important "returning workers" provision expire resulting in thousands of foreign workers being shut out of the country this summer.

That's inexcusable. I know this will come as a huge shock to those who only like to hurl insults, but I think we should be issuing more work visas, more student visas, and more green cards. And I think we should cut the red tape and bureaucracy that's constantly blocking the front door.

But until that happens people are left looking for loopholes and excuses, and "jobs Americans won't do" is the gold standard.

The Journal article offered an example of a couple that sells food at fairs around California each summer. They say that because of the H-2B visa shortage most of their seasonal employees aren't able to enter the country.

So why don't they just hire Americans instead? Good question. Her answer? "This is a hard job."

I find it pretty hard to believe that there aren't a few college students who wouldn't want to drive around California and work outdoors all summer, but let's assume that's true. Let's even assume that none of the other 1.1 million Californians who were unemployed as of April are interested in the job either. Isn't anyone wondering why?

Well I'm not a labor consultant, but I am a thinker. Maybe the problem isn't that the job they're offering is "too hard," maybe it's that the wages they're offering are "too low."

No one paints the undersides of bridges for fun, they do it for the money. That's how capitalism works.

How capitalism does NOT work is when we collectively look the other way as companies exploit illegal labor for their own benefit.

The unspoken truth is that these businesses don't hire illegal aliens because they can't find American workers, they hire illegal aliens because they don't want American workers. And it has nothing to do with wages.

Illegal aliens mean no workers comp claims, no age, race or sex discrimination lawsuits, no healthcare premiums, no unions, and no demands for raises, vacations or bigger offices. In fact, illegal immigrants are the perfect employees because they're not employees at all; they're corporate slaves.

Economist Dr. Thomas Sowell once said "Blacks were not enslaved because they were black, but because they were available." Can't the exact same thing be said for illegal aliens? They're available and we're allowing them to be exploited in the name of cheap groceries.

Is the price of fruit really the standard we want to live up to as a country? Is that really who we've become?

Many Americans believe that cracking down on the businesses that hire illegal aliens (the current maximum federal fine was recently raised to a laughable $16,000) would hurt these hardworking people too much. A bad job is better than no job, we tell ourselves. But that's catalogue compassion. If you want to understand the real impact of these decisions you've got to get off the couch and go see it for yourself.

Back in 2005, Newsday did an investigation of the living conditions of immigrants in the New York area. In the city of Westbury (median income: $83,000/year) officials found twelve immigrants living in a basement flooded with sewage.

In Southampton (median income: $64,000/year) officials found immigrants living in sheds with no plumbing or heat.

In New Cassel (median income: $62,000/year) officials estimated there were dozens of "shift-bed houses" where immigrants literally rent mattresses for a few hours a day to catch some sleep.

Is compassion looking the other way while immigrants who come here for the dream end up living a nightmare smack dab in the middle of some of our wealthiest communities?

Is compassion ignoring stories that reveal the truth, like the recent raid of a squalid "drop house" in Los Angeles where 57 illegal aliens were being held against their will?

Is compassion not wanting to hear that a woman was raped in that drop house, or that many more would have been if not for the screams of their children disrupting the attackers?

If that's compassion, then I guess I'm happy to be accused of having none.

The problem with the debate over illegal immigration right now is that special interests have been successful in making us think with our hearts instead of our brains. We've been persuaded to believe that real compassion can only be achieved by following their agenda. But look where that's gotten us. And more importantly, look where that's gotten the people they're supposedly trying to help.

If you really want to be compassionate then help immigrants get jobs here the right way. Help put crippling fines on the employers who knowingly hire illegal workers, help expand and simplify the visa process, and, most importantly, help get people to start thinking with their brains again.

After all, compassion without common sense may feel good but it doesn't achieve anything. If you need proof then go out and give $1,000 to every homeless person who asks you for change. I bet your heart would be full, but your wallet would soon be empty. And all those people would probably still be homeless

Edited May 29, 2008 by SMB x2

[rebeccajo 14]

"If you really want to be compassionate then help immigrants get jobs here the right way. Help put crippling fines on the employers who knowingly hire illegal workers, help expand and simplify the visa process, and, most importantly, help get people to start thinking with their brains again. "

Shannon -

What an excellent article. Well done.

[HAL 9000 96]

"Americans spend months at a time at sea fishing for crab or drilling for oil; two of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Americans clean bathrooms, subway stations and crime scenes. Americans man toll booths, pave roads, embalm bodies and inspect sewers. Yet people really expect us to believe that they won't pick strawberries or oranges?

It just doesn't add up."

I think Beck sums it up to a T in his own stupidity.

How much do strawberry or orange pickers get paid in comparison to the payment the oil workers make?

To his credit he gets the entire part about the capitalistic management practices. This is what happens when big businesses are allowed to act unchecked.

[Ban Hammer 13,206]

You keep bringing up irrelevant questions that are off the mark Charles.

And I will answer my opinion here as well-

Its not about punitively invading as if we were the saviors. Its modification of our business practices so that those that act above the electoral system do not continue to perpetuate their power base so as to act impune to the democratic sentiment of their constituencies.

You are the only one claiming its a 'blame game.' That is fuzzy, escapist logic.

It should be more about focusing on changing the way we encourage local economic structures to dominate local markets. Creating inequalities abroad that create secondary immigration problems for some people in the USA.

you're the one making the blame game: "NAFTA, maquiladoras with US shareholders, wealthy oligarchs" instead of placing it on the shoulders of where it belongs.

[sj5 4]

They claimed USA is their lands because_____________?