Muslims

[Nothing1234 2]

FYI for non muslims:

CAIR is once again offering a free quran (only pay the price of shipping) to non muslim americans.

The version they are offering is beyond beautiful. It's massive (I insist on dragging it along to the masjid during Ramadan, and after a week, my shoulder is aching), and beautifully put together. While the english is old (not my favorite), the commentary is superb. It does have it's drawbacks (he tends to discount the miraculous), but all in all, it's a great book.

For muslims, keep checking half.com, as the last time CAIR had a Qur'an campaign, people would sell their copies there. What is their loss can be your gain. It looks like there is one on there now for $20.

Saudi Aramco World had a great article on him in one of their 2002 issues.

Agreed...its a very beautiful and quite LARGE quran!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Doing what Allah (swt), through the Prophet (saws) has commanded us to do is obligatory on us. None of it is small. None of it is mundane. None of it is unimportant.

That's true, if you believe that hijab is mandatory, or if you believe that everything taught in Islam enjoys equal weight in God's eyes. But He makes it clear that He is far more interested in our acts and intentions than in our adornment.

O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition. [Quran 7:26]

We can decide that what is important to the discussion is what brings us together to enjoin the good. Hijab discussions tend to devolve into "them and us", no matter how well-intended the participants. When I read of women suffering and fretting over hijab, while others post about the joy they find in wearing it, my heart goes out to those who are being given the impression that hijab is a salve for the soul when it is merely a symbol of faith. Then, it is incumbant upon me to remind them, and anyone else who is willing to listen, that what makes only you feel good and whole is vanity of the flesh. What we do to try to make everyone good and whole is divine.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Sofiyya

[amal 4]

Doing what Allah (swt), through the Prophet (saws) has commanded us to do is obligatory on us. None of it is small. None of it is mundane. None of it is unimportant.

That's true, if you believe that hijab is mandatory, or if you believe that everything taught in Islam enjoys equal weight in God's eyes. But He makes it clear that He is far more interested in our acts and intentions than in our adornment.

O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition. [Quran 7:26]

We can decide that what is important to the discussion is what brings us together to enjoin the good. Hijab discussions tend to devolve into "them and us", no matter how well-intended the participants. When I read of women suffering and fretting over hijab, while others post about the joy they find in wearing it, my heart goes out to those who are being given the impression that hijab is a salve for the soul when it is merely a symbol of faith. Then, it is incumbant upon me to remind them, and anyone else who is willing to listen, that what makes only you feel good and whole is vanity of the flesh. What we do to try to make everyone good and whole is divine.

As much as I do appreciate (and understand) the message you are trying to convery, I must disagree. But only slightly. I, as melly, would never consider putting someone down because of their choice not to cover. It's a personal choice according to ones interpretation of what they read.

As for myself, when I read about hijab, it was absolutely clear to me what was being asked of me. Once I discovered this...I was more than happy to do so because it was just one more thing I could do that was pleasing to God. Again, it is only the way that I understood what I read so that doesn't hold true to each and every muslim out there.

It weighed on my mind a lot because I felt it was what was being asked of me (by God) and I was too afraid to just take the step and do it. This is (imho) why it is such a hot topic when it comes to this religion. Women read and understand what they think is required and because we were each given the gift of choice, we all understand things in different ways so that causes this topic to be taken in every direction.

It's not about wether I cover or not that is the issue. It's about how I feel in my heart and what my intent is about it that makes the difference. I can't hide my feelings with God. He knows that in my heart I feel that I'm supposed to cover. He also knows why I didn't cover for so long and knew that my intent was not to be "bad". Therefore, I feel that doing something that I truely believe is something I am supposed to do AND doing it with the pure intent to please God (and God only)....what's wrong with that? It isn't gonna get me any more blessings than a non-hijabi who truely feels in her heart that it's absolutely non-mandatory...

Does any of that even make sense? I'm not as eloquent a writer as you are so I apologize for being so scattered but I do hope that my point comes accross accurately as I'm not saying you're wrong, right, indifferent. Everybody is entitled to their beliefs and in the end it's their own personal relationship with God that's gonna be the big decision maker, ya know

Thanks for reading

amal

[doodlebugg 10]

All I know is that I had a pink cloud about wearing hijab for the first year. Once that cloud blew away the reality of how I was and am perceived by some people hit me like a lead balloon. It wouldn't even be the slightest of struggles if I lived in Egypt, obviously, since that's the norm there. I'm still praying about it and still trying to dig deep within myself to see what the real reason is that I want to take it off. I know it's not because I'm hot anymore since putting it on after wetting my hair seems to aleviate that symptom. Right now the focus is on the scowls I receive day in and day out. With everything else going on in my life I really didn't need the added animosity of my fellow humans, you know? Then again God never gives us more than we can handle.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Hi, amal. No, I don't understand. What is it that I said that you're disagreeing with?

Edited July 27, 2009 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I would like to make it clear that I am aware that some perceive me to be argumentative, but in this case, I'm no way interested in arguing. Since I understand its place in the faith (as opposed to among Muslims), I don't care who wears hijab and who doesn't. I neither encourage it or discourage it. I'm curious about why, out of all the possibilities the text offer us, is hijab such a big deal to converts?

I know some born Muslimas talk alot about it, too, but for us, even if there is a religious motivation, there is often (not always) a substantial cultural veneer that often allows us no choice but to follow willingly, be bullied into compliance, or be labeled less than worthy. Western converts don't tend to come from families that believe that honor requires hijab and weigh women down with the burdens of cultural traditions.

So I'm puzzled why, when there are legitimate and halal options that allow for pleasing Allah with your head uncovered, there is such angst over covering. I'm also wondering what is the hurry to cover in public? There are so many aspects of Islam that one is free to explore that can bring joy to your experience, increase the depth of knowledge and understanding of his Plan, and, perhaps, even give you the strength to cover, if you so believe you must.

Just like hijab, there are elements in Islam that one must be ready to accept. I'm wondering if struggling with hijab holds anyone back from moving on to a higher level of understanding and action that has nothing to do with gender. I'm curious about convert experiences and about why I see many of the same patterns repeated. I am wondering about what Muslima converts are being told to embrace, and what weight is being put where. I'm learning, so I have to ask. Thank you all for indulging me

[amal 4]

I think it's so controversial because it can either be taken as "wear it" or "don't wear it". Those who believe they should wear it will feel the pressure and guilt because they're dealing with that feeling of "well it says I should but I don't feel comfortable". I'm not saying that they absolutely have to cover BUT it's a hard thing to do here. It's definitely not the most important thing to do in Islam as there are the 5 pillars that are most important before anything else but ppl just want to know what's asked of them and they want to do the right thing...for the right reasons.

It's all in the way you understand what you read in qura'an. If you read it and fully understand that you're supposed to cover and that THAT is what God has asked of you but you don't want to cover...it's really hard to continue on with the feeling that you're not doing what you feel ur supposed to. Wow I feel like I'm talking in circles here coz I can't get typed down what's in myhead. I'll just stop here before I end up making ppl angry or upset coz that's really not my point here.

I only opened this discussion coz after a few years of contemplation, I read and re-read the suras relating to this and it finally all made sense to me loud and clear and I wanted to share that experience with everybody (especially the girls here who have known me from the start and are familiar with the struggles I've faced on this). It wasn't to start a massive debate. I do apologise if I've upset anybody.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I doubt that anyone is upset with you, and so what if they are? If we're going to talk hijab, we need to be able to talk hijab on, hijab off, etc., politely. I'm still wondering why, if after reading the Quran, which doesn't even discuss hijab as clothing, it's still what captivates and tortures women converts, unlike so many of the other things that Allah repeats, emphasizes, and deliniates more often and far more clearly. The dilemma and dicotomy involved are probably things I'll never understand, but it's really fascinating and, well, somewhat sad to watch.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Sofiyya

[amal 4]

This is the best explanation I can give to your question. This is what happened to me. It's easier just to repost it than to type it again

Ok.. we've alllll been thru this a zillion times. I posted this coz I told everyone in the daily thread I'd explain why I decided to start covering. Well, this verse is why. I know it's debated and debated and debated until the horse is dead but I took it upon myself to start reading Qura'an last week and when reading the chapter "noor".... I read, re-read, and re-read this chapter until I finally felt like I understood exactly what it was saying and what was being commanded.....

First, the verse...then my explanation.

qura'an - chapter 24 vs (30) And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

OOOOOK... my explanation.

Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent. Ok. Simple enough.

Adornment = beauty. lower ur gaze, be modest, and cover the adornment (beauty) which is apparent.

Then it says to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save......etc

mmmk... draw the veil over the bosom AND don't reveal their adornment...etc.... so TO ME...MY OWN INTERPRETATION AND UNDERSTANDING... is that... cover ur beauty. well .....to me, hair is a form of beauty...so hair would definitely be an adornment which needs to be covered. (again just mho)

Then it goes on to say to draw the veil over the bosom and not to reveal their adornment. mmmmmk... cover the "ladies" AND (and which can also mean "also) not to reveal the adornment.......

So the more I read...the more I realized that it does mean (to me) to cover the hair and to wear items which do not form to ur body (since those would reveal the "bodily" adornment ...ie curves, breasts, etc)... so if u have clothes that are somewhat form fitting, then at least use a veil to wrap around those "adornment" type areas so as not to show ur "goods"....

and having said this... I believe it was MrsAmera that brought up the fact of covering beauty to quite possibly mean covering hands and face as well. I wouldn't take it that far and anyone is free to continue reading past my quoted post to see why I say that as well. It's just easier to re-read it than to have to re-type it

Edited July 27, 2009 by amal

[Staashi 371]

All I know is that I had a pink cloud about wearing hijab for the first year. Once that cloud blew away the reality of how I was and am perceived by some people hit me like a lead balloon. It wouldn't even be the slightest of struggles if I lived in Egypt, obviously, since that's the norm there. I'm still praying about it and still trying to dig deep within myself to see what the real reason is that I want to take it off. I know it's not because I'm hot anymore since putting it on after wetting my hair seems to aleviate that symptom. Right now the focus is on the scowls I receive day in and day out. With everything else going on in my life I really didn't need the added animosity of my fellow humans, you know? Then again God never gives us more than we can handle.

I think He does - He just wants to see if we can rise to the occasion and deal with it.

[amal 4]

All I know is that I had a pink cloud about wearing hijab for the first year. Once that cloud blew away the reality of how I was and am perceived by some people hit me like a lead balloon. It wouldn't even be the slightest of struggles if I lived in Egypt, obviously, since that's the norm there. I'm still praying about it and still trying to dig deep within myself to see what the real reason is that I want to take it off. I know it's not because I'm hot anymore since putting it on after wetting my hair seems to aleviate that symptom. Right now the focus is on the scowls I receive day in and day out. With everything else going on in my life I really didn't need the added animosity of my fellow humans, you know? Then again God never gives us more than we can handle.

I think He does - He just wants to see if we can rise to the occasion and deal with it.

I must say that this is a better way to see it and I totally agree!

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Then again God never gives us more than we can handle.

I think He does - He just wants to see if we can rise to the occasion and deal with it.

I must say that this is a better way to see it and I totally agree!

God does not burden any human being with more than he is well able to bear: in his favour shall be whatever good he does, and against him whatever evil he does. O our Sustainer! Take us not to task if we forget or unwittingly do wrong! "O our Sustainer! Lay not upon us a burden such as Thou didst lay upon those who lived before us!Asad(2,278) O our Sustainer! Make us not bear burdens which we have no strength to bear! "And efface Thou our sins, and grant us forgiveness, and bestow Thy mercy upon us! Thou art our Lord Supreme: succour us, then, against people who deny the truth!" (2:286)

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Came upon this interesting site today and thought people here may find it useful, as it contains a word for word translation and dictionary. It just reminds me how much grammar they tried to stuff in my head in school and how much I've forgotten

One spiffy feature - if you click on the word in the word for word translation, it shows you where else in the Qur'an that word, or forms of that word appear.

Word-for-word syntax and morphology of the Holy Quran

Edited July 27, 2009 by UmmSqueakster

[amal 4]

Then again God never gives us more than we can handle.

I think He does - He just wants to see if we can rise to the occasion and deal with it.

I must say that this is a better way to see it and I totally agree!

God does not burden any human being with more than he is well able to bear: in his favour shall be whatever good he does, and against him whatever evil he does. O our Sustainer! Take us not to task if we forget or unwittingly do wrong! "O our Sustainer! Lay not upon us a burden such as Thou didst lay upon those who lived before us!Asad(2,278) O our Sustainer! Make us not bear burdens which we have no strength to bear! "And efface Thou our sins, and grant us forgiveness, and bestow Thy mercy upon us! Thou art our Lord Supreme: succour us, then, against people who deny the truth!" (2:286)

well, that's just cool.

[doodlebugg 10]

I'm curious about why, out of all the possibilities the text offer us, is hijab such a big deal to converts?

Honestly I don't think it's a big deal to most converts. I think it's a big deal for a lot of converts whose husbands come from the Middle East.

I know some born Muslimas talk alot about it, too, but for us, even if there is a religious motivation, there is often (not always) a substantial cultural veneer that often allows us no choice but to follow willingly, be bullied into compliance, or be labeled less than worthy. Western converts don't tend to come from families that believe that honor requires hijab and weigh women down with the burdens of cultural traditions.

True, but, some western converts on vj whose hubbies come from the middle east do believe that honor requires hijab and weigh some of those women down with the burdens of *their* cultural traditions. For example, I'll just put myself out on a limb here and state that my husband at one point stated that my going outside without a scarf on my head would be shameful for him since all other men could see my hair. He is extremely protective of my going outside covered. Even when I'm just going out on the deck to flip burgers he'll check to see who could possibly see me first.

Just like hijab, there are elements in Islam that one must be ready to accept. I'm wondering if struggling with hijab holds anyone back from moving on to a higher level of understanding and action that has nothing to do with gender. I'm curious about convert experiences and about why I see many of the same patterns repeated. I am wondering about what Muslima converts are being told to embrace, and what weight is being put where. I'm learning, so I have to ask. Thank you all for indulging me

I'm not being held back but that's just my personal experience. On the contrary I think that learning more about Islam is what is lessening the importance of hijab to me, if that makes any sense.

The very first thing that was told to me above all else was to learn how to perform salat. That took me about two to three weeks to memorize in Arabic (I was never told I could say it in English and now I'm even considering memorizing it in my own language so that it will mean more to me). Anyways my point is that salat was always the first and foremost in my mind and was stressed to me bigtime. After that it was "read". So I read. Once I got comfy with the Quran for a bit I ventured out into other books such as In the Footsteps of the Prophet, by Tariq Ramadan, who btw I think is now allowed to enter the USA after years of being wrongfully banned. http://www.tariqramadan.com/spip.php?article10734

Now I'm into reading about how Allah is in my life 24/7 EVERYWHERE. It's truly amazing and has changed my whole perspective on life.

So....no I'm not just harping on hijab and forgetting everything else related to Islam. It's just extremely bothersome to me and a personal struggle. If you want to know the truth, even though my husband recently told me that he would not be angry if I took it off (after talking to a friend in Canada who explained the hardships I am having with it) I still have this gnawing feeling in my gut that he will be disappointed. I'm sure he will be disappointed actually but I don't now believe that it would be anything other than for cultural reasons. I love him so very much and I see him struggling day in and day out working two shifts and being so discouraged with certain things here I'd hate to add to that but then again I have to think of myself as well.

See how complicated it can be???