Muslims

[amysaid 9]

Salaam everyone, I have an issue I was hoping someone could help me out with, maybe direct me to some resources or something. I converted to Islam about a year ago, and as I have been trying to educate myself about Islam, I've also been trying to educate my daughter, who's almost six years old. One of the issues we have is that her paternal grandparents are Christian, and they refuse to stop talking about their religion to her. Now, I want my daughter to grow up with a knowledge of religions other than Islam, but I don't think that right now is the right time for her to be learning about them. I am trying to ingrain in her the beliefs that she needs to become a good practicing Muslim, but she is really conflicted. I have actually had to limit the amount of time she spends with her paternal grandparents, which I feel bad about, because she loves them a lot, and I know they love her very much. I have had numerous conversations with them, and even went over there one day JUST to answer their questions, converse with them about Islam in a non-confrontational way. Abigail loves to read books, and watch movies of course, like any kid, but I'm having a hard time finding English language Islamic materials. I would really like to find something similar to the illustrated biblical stories that kids read, only for Quran stories. Of course it gets tricky since artwork and drawings are debatably haraam, so I'm not sure what to do about that. I do have some childrens' nasheeds CDs that have been good at teaching her some good words, like Alhamdulilah, and that act as a good opening for conversation about things like Jannah and Ramadan.

Anyway, any thoughts/suggestions/comments would be appreciated

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

Salaam everyone, I have an issue I was hoping someone could help me out with, maybe direct me to some resources or something. I converted to Islam about a year ago, and as I have been trying to educate myself about Islam, I've also been trying to educate my daughter, who's almost six years old. One of the issues we have is that her paternal grandparents are Christian, and they refuse to stop talking about their religion to her. Now, I want my daughter to grow up with a knowledge of religions other than Islam, but I don't think that right now is the right time for her to be learning about them. I am trying to ingrain in her the beliefs that she needs to become a good practicing Muslim, but she is really conflicted. I have actually had to limit the amount of time she spends with her paternal grandparents, which I feel bad about, because she loves them a lot, and I know they love her very much. I have had numerous conversations with them, and even went over there one day JUST to answer their questions, converse with them about Islam in a non-confrontational way. Abigail loves to read books, and watch movies of course, like any kid, but I'm having a hard time finding English language Islamic materials. I would really like to find something similar to the illustrated biblical stories that kids read, only for Quran stories. Of course it gets tricky since artwork and drawings are debatably haraam, so I'm not sure what to do about that. I do have some childrens' nasheeds CDs that have been good at teaching her some good words, like Alhamdulilah, and that act as a good opening for conversation about things like Jannah and Ramadan.

Anyway, any thoughts/suggestions/comments would be appreciated

If you lived near Portland you could come to the Islamic School of MET near Washington Square and see everything in their library. There are TONS of stuff for kids... My favorite website for children's materials (years ago when my son was young) was http://www.soundvision.com

I don't know where you live, but connecting your daughter with other Muslim children and participating in weekend school, or other activities at the masjid is the best thing you can do.

There's nothing you can do about her grandparents... they will never stop trying, and ultimately it's up to her which religion she will follow. All you can do is 1) practice what you belive 2) tell her what you believe and why you believe it 3) practice it 4) practice it, 5) answer her questions 6) Show great respect for her grandparents beliefs, even if you don't agree 7) Try to stay calm with them and don't let her see you get upset (if possible)... you don't want her to feel that she has to take sides...

My parents haven't given up to this day. They even fill their house with anti-Muslim propaganda books and magazines for my son to read if he ever took the time... I've been dealing with their disgust over my religious beliefs for many many years. They have actually told my son that they think I've been "brainwashed"...

No easy answers on the grandparents question. But there are PLENTY of materials for kids. I've never art work and drawings were haram, and neither have the Muslims who publish these books... because they are FILLED with both. And there are DVD's and cartoons, and all kinds of stuff available in English for children of ALL ages. I have a set of books called the Sirah of the Prophets that has lots of nice stories and illustrations.

Hope this helps. You've got an uphill battle... Just remember your duty is to teach and be an example. The rest is up to Allah and your daughter when she is of age.

Personally I can't even cope with the Muslims that claim you should "beat your children" if they don't pray the 5 prayers by age 10. Your husband may or may not be of the "Enforcing Islam" persuasion... and if he is and you aren't... well... good luck.... (been there done that, got the scars to prove it...)

My son was 9 when I married a very strict Egyptian Muslim (who had never had children of his own but thought he knew everything about how MY son should behave and be disciplined). The memories of what we went through over the 8 years I was married to him are not fond ones. My son carries deep emotional scars and permanent damage to his heart and soul to this day.

BTW, I bought a book called "Muslim Parenting in the West" or something like that... I can't recommend it. I didn't find a shred of advice I could use in the whole book.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Its rather sad that you are limiting the time your daughter has with her grandparents. Why doesn't she get to make a choice about her religion as you had one year ago?

What will happen years from now when she forms her own opinion and sticks with it? You've shown your willing to alienate her from her grandparents, will you do the same to your daughter if she chooses Christianity.

Edited July 7, 2009 by lancer1655

[HLM 1]

Ok, the weirdest thing happened today. We were in line at Target and my husband brought up the snorting sound stuff. I never told him about it but he was telling me about a fight he and his ex had when they were first married and her sister got involved and made the aha sound and how it was about as bad as the snorting sound! Just had to share......

It is used as an insult if you are fighting with someone and you snort. It's very low class and practically street people do it to eachother. ( I'm not saying that about your husband's ex. I'm sorry if I offend him but I am telling you what I know about it from my culture)

[amysaid 9]

Its rather sad that you are limiting the time your daughter has with her grandparents. Why doesn't she get to make a choice about her religion as you had one year ago?

What will happen years from now when she forms her own opinion and sticks with it? You've shown your willing to alienate her from her grandparents, will you do the same to your daughter if she chooses Christianity.

I did say that I feel bad about limiting the time she spends with them. I am limiting her time with them because of their lack of respect for me and my family. I have done nothing to disrespect them or their beliefs, but they continue to disrespect ours. A five year old does not have the capacity to make her own decisions and choices about her religion. This age is critical as far as establishing beliefs that will last a lifetime, and since it is important to me that my daughter be Muslim, then I am doing what I have to to make that happen.

I resent your inference that I would ever disown my child.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I hate to say it but religion matter what the age still requires choice. And how do these grandparents disrespect your beliefs?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Silly 5 minuted edit rule. I meant to add a "no" in front of matter. Anyway moving forward, I did not infer you would disown your child I was simply asking a question. However, this statement "and since it is important to me that my daughter be Muslim, then I am doing what I have to to make that happen."

How far are you willing to go to keep your daughter Muslim. Its also interesting that you bring up family as these grandparents ARE family.

[amysaid 9]

If you lived near Portland you could come to the Islamic School of MET near Washington Square and see everything in their library. There are TONS of stuff for kids...

I don't know where you live, but connecting your daughter with other Muslim children and participating in weekend school, or other activities at the masjid is the best thing you can do.

No easy answers on the grandparents question. But there are PLENTY of materials for kids. I've never art work and drawings were haram, and neither have the Muslims who publish these books...

My son was 9 when I married a very strict Egyptian Muslim (who had never had children of his own but thought he knew everything about how MY son should behave and be disciplined).

Thank you for your input, I appreciate all the suggestions I live in Salem, so it's not out of the question to drive up to Beaverton, but it's not really convenient either. None of the masjids in Oregon are conveniently located for us here, they are both about an hour away (Bilal in Beaverton, and Salman al-Farsi in Corvallis). Where is the Islamic School of MET located? Is that the one that's in the building next to Bilal? I have thought about doing the weekend school thing, but I've never been sure about whether it costs money, and I felt kind of silly asking. Plus, I didn't really consider it as an option since it's a little far to drive. We do spend time with another Salem sister who has a daughter that's my daughter's age, but we are both recent converts and really just still trying to get our footing.

As for drawings/photos being haram, I just looked around on sunnipath.com and apparently several fatwa have declared it ok to use artwork in the production of things for children: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?ID=18534

Regarding the husband stuff... Ehh. That's a tough topic for me, as I had several extremely awful stepfathers when I was growing up. I have vowed that I would not let anything like that happen to my daughter, even at the expense of my marriage. I hope your son will be able to heal from what he endured.

[amysaid 9]

Silly 5 minuted edit rule. I meant to add a "no" in front of matter. Anyway moving forward, I did not infer you would disown your child I was simply asking a question. However, this statement "and since it is important to me that my daughter be Muslim, then I am doing what I have to to make that happen."

How far are you willing to go to keep your daughter Muslim. Its also interesting that you bring up family as these grandparents ARE family.

It's hard to distinguish a question when there is no question mark involved. The joys of the English language! I am not going to continue this conversation with you, as I came to this thread for support, not snark. Have an excellent day.

[Nothing1234 2]

My BIL is arriving on Thursday and will be here for Ramadan! He is planning to stay for a while which is awesome for the babies! I'm very excited as this will be his first time meeting the twins, his first time in the US plus we will have part of our family here with us!! Praying that my MIL, SIL and nephew can make it for at least part of Ramadan too!

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

The fact that your reply accused me of being 'snarky' when in fact I was merely attempting to debate the question at hand with you, tells me a lot about how you have discussed this matter with the child's grandparents. You say you are asking for support, but your overwhelming desire to lock your young daughter's ideas for her at such an early age is only bound to lead to trouble at some stage in her life. You can't keep her away from people with differing beliefs for the entirety of her life. Hence the question of which is more important to you - controlling your daughter's beliefs or accepting your family without judging them - is actually very relevant.

I'll leave you with a hypothetical question (and make sure to stamp it with a question mark so there is no misunderstanding!):

30 years from now your daughter converts to Christianity and wants to teach her daughter about Christianity only. She feels threatened when the daughter is at your house and you are instructing her about Islam. She then decides it's in her daughter's best interests to see you infrequently and only when she can supervise the meetings. How will you feel?

I'm not trying to attack you, but you certainly implied that you wanted distance from the grandparents. I think you need to seriously think about the consequences of your actions. No matter what they believe, it is quite disturbing to me that you would consider cutting someone out of your life, or minimize their involvement, because of the reasons you have stated. Definitely suggests to me that the family unit is not your number one priority.

[amysaid 9]

The fact that your reply accused me of being 'snarky' when in fact I was merely attempting to debate the question at hand with you, tells me a lot about how you have discussed this matter with the child's grandparents. You say you are asking for support, but your overwhelming desire to lock your young daughter's ideas for her at such an early age is only bound to lead to trouble at some stage in her life. You can't keep her away from people with differing beliefs for the entirety of her life. Hence the question of which is more important to you - controlling your daughter's beliefs or accepting your family without judging them - is actually very relevant.

I'll leave you with a hypothetical question (and make sure to stamp it with a question mark so there is no misunderstanding!):

30 years from now your daughter converts to Christianity and wants to teach her daughter about Christianity only. She feels threatened when the daughter is at your house and you are instructing her about Islam. She then decides it's in her daughter's best interests to see you infrequently and only when she can supervise the meetings. How will you feel?

I'm not trying to attack you, but you certainly implied that you wanted distance from the grandparents. I think you need to seriously think about the consequences of your actions. No matter what they believe, it is quite disturbing to me that you would consider cutting someone out of your life, or minimize their involvement, because of the reasons you have stated. Definitely suggests to me that the family unit is not your number one priority.

There was no question up for debate to begin with. I came here with a personal issue to ask advice, not to have my issue picked apart and questioned. I am 100% aware that I can't keep my kids away from people with differing beliefs, and I would not want to do that in any case. I want my daughter to be aware of and tolerant of people of all religions, beliefs, or lack thereof. I am actually an extremely open-minded person, despite whatever opinion you may have formed of me. Yes, I want my daughter to be Muslim. I want what is best for her, and I believe that Islam is the best for her. If she decides, as an adult, that Islam is not for her, then that will occur with me knowing that I have done everything I can in order to put her on the right path. However, I DO NOT think it is my place to push my faith on anyone who does not want it, just as it is not anyone else's place to push their religion on me and mine when I don't want it. As of this moment, I am making choices for the good of my child, and her religious upbringing is one of those choices. I have asked her grandparents for only two things: 1) NOT to disagree with the Islamic teachings that I am teaching my daughter (IE, not telling her that Muhammed (pbuh) was not a prophet, for instance, or that the Quran is not the word of God) and 2) If they want to share their beliefs with her (which I have no problem with) that they phrase it in such a way as to indicate that that is THEIR belief, not a fact. Such as saying "Well, we believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, but other people believe other things" instead of saying "Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected." Whenever my daughter repeats something to me that she heard one of her grandparents say, like when she told me that her grandma told her that Jesus was the son of God, I don't go off and tell her that her grandma is a liar, I tell her that Yes, that is what her grandma believes, that her grandma is a Christian, and that people believe a lot of different things. And then I tell her what I believe about whatever it is that she has mentioned. Add to this that they keep feeding her pork, when I have repeatedly asked them not to, tell her that her mother will burn in hell because she is Muslim, and refer to me using racial slurs such as "towelhead", yes, I do want to limit their influence on my kid.

Are we done now?

[Kenza 1]

The fact that your reply accused me of being 'snarky' when in fact I was merely attempting to debate the question at hand with you, tells me a lot about how you have discussed this matter with the child's grandparents. You say you are asking for support, but your overwhelming desire to lock your young daughter's ideas for her at such an early age is only bound to lead to trouble at some stage in her life. You can't keep her away from people with differing beliefs for the entirety of her life. Hence the question of which is more important to you - controlling your daughter's beliefs or accepting your family without judging them - is actually very relevant.

I'll leave you with a hypothetical question (and make sure to stamp it with a question mark so there is no misunderstanding!):

30 years from now your daughter converts to Christianity and wants to teach her daughter about Christianity only. She feels threatened when the daughter is at your house and you are instructing her about Islam. She then decides it's in her daughter's best interests to see you infrequently and only when she can supervise the meetings. How will you feel?

I'm not trying to attack you, but you certainly implied that you wanted distance from the grandparents. I think you need to seriously think about the consequences of your actions. No matter what they believe, it is quite disturbing to me that you would consider cutting someone out of your life, or minimize their involvement, because of the reasons you have stated. Definitely suggests to me that the family unit is not your number one priority.

There was no question up for debate to begin with. I came here with a personal issue to ask advice, not to have my issue picked apart and questioned. I am 100% aware that I can't keep my kids away from people with differing beliefs, and I would not want to do that in any case. I want my daughter to be aware of and tolerant of people of all religions, beliefs, or lack thereof. I am actually an extremely open-minded person, despite whatever opinion you may have formed of me. Yes, I want my daughter to be Muslim. I want what is best for her, and I believe that Islam is the best for her. If she decides, as an adult, that Islam is not for her, then that will occur with me knowing that I have done everything I can in order to put her on the right path. However, I DO NOT think it is my place to push my faith on anyone who does not want it, just as it is not anyone else's place to push their religion on me and mine when I don't want it. As of this moment, I am making choices for the good of my child, and her religious upbringing is one of those choices. I have asked her grandparents for only two things: 1) NOT to disagree with the Islamic teachings that I am teaching my daughter (IE, not telling her that Muhammed (pbuh) was not a prophet, for instance, or that the Quran is not the word of God) and 2) If they want to share their beliefs with her (which I have no problem with) that they phrase it in such a way as to indicate that that is THEIR belief, not a fact. Such as saying "Well, we believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, but other people believe other things" instead of saying "Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected." Whenever my daughter repeats something to me that she heard one of her grandparents say, like when she told me that her grandma told her that Jesus was the son of God, I don't go off and tell her that her grandma is a liar, I tell her that Yes, that is what her grandma believes, that her grandma is a Christian, and that people believe a lot of different things. And then I tell her what I believe about whatever it is that she has mentioned. Add to this that they keep feeding her pork, when I have repeatedly asked them not to, tell her that her mother will burn in hell because she is Muslim, and refer to me using racial slurs such as "towelhead", yes, I do want to limit their influence on my kid.

Are we done now?

I totally understand your situation and I believe you are doing what is best for your child. My grandparents are the same way-the fact that they can't accept anything different and are very ignorant. When I started wearing hijab, my grandpa would introduce me as his "Moroccan" granddaughter and my sister by her name as Sara. My sister isn't practicing. They still can't believe that their grandaughter is something other than what they are, if that makes sense. My grandparents never bring up the religious debate but they make rude comments and pester me like serving wine when they know I won't eat with them if they do etc. I suggest having group outings with your grandparents so that your daughter isn't prey to their talk. They might be like my grandpa after 5 years still hasn't changed but until your daughter is old enough to think for herself and stand up for herself-protect her. I make dua that this goes easy for you and inshallah your daughter grows up to be a contributing individual.

I also don't think you implied cutting relations- which should not be done. Rather have group outings if that makes you more comfortable. Also, for education for your daughter, teach her about Islam and also teach her that others believe other things.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Kenza

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I sympathize with you if that is the case hence I asked how they were disrespecting you. From your original post you came off as being controlling to the point of being thought police. I see now that the situation appears to be much more extreme.

As this is a public forum you shouldn't be surprised to get questions regarding a post. The definition of "forum" is a place for debate and discussion after all.

Thanks for responding and all the best.

[MrsAmera 41]

Amy - My grandparents are somewhat similar but not quite as extreme. My oldest son has been raised as a Muslim by us however we were not overly observant in the beginning and my grandparents just haven't really gotten the dietary and religious prohibitations. My son goes to an Islamic school, and yes I do want him to learn about all faiths however when my grandma proposed vacation bible school this summer (he's spending the summer with them) I had to say no. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was VBS but that it would be confusing for him at this time, and I didn't want him being confused. The pork issue is hard and most of my family just thinks we're being mean by not allowing our kids to eat it. I always say "well if he had an allergy and wanted it would you give it to him??"

Educational material - there is a lot out there. Let me get my links together and I'll PM you.