Muslims

[doodlebugg 10]

Alright so a question for those more wise than me on these matters;

Husband and I had a little debate the other night. I was watching this PBS show; http://www.pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/show_mosque.html -

I really admire Asra Nomani as the woman she is having had the courage to stand up to and do/say things that maybe go against the norm. Also I entered Islam as a single mother, not having been married to my son's father and so a lot of things she went through I could understand. Anyway - part of this has to do with women's prayer spaces. Another woman I greatly admire is Dr. Ingrid Mattson president of ISNA. I personally know her very well and one of her big issues is having prayer spaces for women in mosques and not just tossing them in some dark closet in the back of the mosque. The episode really touches on the conflict of an "American mosque". Because for a lot of our community in the US the mosque is not the same space as it is in the ME. It's a community center, a school, and a safe place for Muslims to go for community and not just a place where men go to pray. This is lost on a lot of immigrants because they are not used to that.

So the real question came up with the issue of prayer, and the segregation of men and women. In this mosque women had to use the back door and where secluded - only later was it allowable for them to pray on the balcony of the mosque overhanging the main hall. My husband got so fired up that women would challenge the segregation, and why do they have to challenge that and that's what the Qu'ran says.....well I wasn't sure about that. So I dug out my Qu'ran and jee I couldn't find that it said that anywhere....so where is this coming from? To me, heck I don't want anyone looking at my backend while I'm praying but I am curious where this is coming from. Any englightenment?

That's how it is at the mosque we go to (when we go to one). I have to enter through the back doorway and hike up the stairs to the balcony where the other women and the children's room is. All to not have us distracted? I'm sorry but when some 2 yr old is crawling up the back of a mom who is prostrating I think I'm more distracted than if I were *gasp* intwined with the men downstairs. I gave up and now we have a little prayer room next to our living room where it's nice and quiet, nice view of the nature out in the backyard and plenty of space so I don't bump anyone or smell their garlicy salad they had for lunch before they came in to pray.

I'm in a mood.

Edited June 17, 2009 by humpkinpumpkin

[MrsAmera 41]

You're right!!! One of the things I admire about Dr. Mattson is that when she goes into a mosque to do a discussion or training, she reverses it. If it's a segregated mosque, she has the men go into the "women's area" and the women come up front to the main hall. Boy I think those men understand after that....

[Zee Bee 61]

Alright so a question for those more wise than me on these matters;

Husband and I had a little debate the other night. I was watching this PBS show; http://www.pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/show_mosque.html -

I really admire Asra Nomani as the woman she is having had the courage to stand up to and do/say things that maybe go against the norm. Also I entered Islam as a single mother, not having been married to my son's father and so a lot of things she went through I could understand. Anyway - part of this has to do with women's prayer spaces. Another woman I greatly admire is Dr. Ingrid Mattson president of ISNA. I personally know her very well and one of her big issues is having prayer spaces for women in mosques and not just tossing them in some dark closet in the back of the mosque. The episode really touches on the conflict of an "American mosque". Because for a lot of our community in the US the mosque is not the same space as it is in the ME. It's a community center, a school, and a safe place for Muslims to go for community and not just a place where men go to pray. This is lost on a lot of immigrants because they are not used to that.

So the real question came up with the issue of prayer, and the segregation of men and women. In this mosque women had to use the back door and where secluded - only later was it allowable for them to pray on the balcony of the mosque overhanging the main hall. My husband got so fired up that women would challenge the segregation, and why do they have to challenge that and that's what the Qu'ran says.....well I wasn't sure about that. So I dug out my Qu'ran and jee I couldn't find that it said that anywhere....so where is this coming from? To me, heck I don't want anyone looking at my backend while I'm praying but I am curious where this is coming from. Any englightenment?

When I lived in Iowa I was among a group of women that challenged the segregation of the mosque. As far as we found, there was no indication anywhere that explicitly condoned the segregation in the way that it is done in the US.

In our case, we were challenging the "room" that we were put into. It was a small room, where the kids were also expected to stay. It was a new mosque, and the main prayer hall had brand new carpeting flown in special from Jordan I believe. In the women's area, the just got us some runners to pray on. Our beef was that we were not allowed to pray in the main hall even though it there was more than enough space in the back fro the women. They had the mics on and a CCTV which did not work half the time. The mic would even go off in the middle of prayer and we would have no idea where the imam was. It took us MONTHS to have a meeting with the imam over our concerns and even then he would only talk to us through a screen. His logic was that there was only one entrance to the main hall (which was not true, the second entrance was just bolted up) and since it was near the front of the hall, women walking in would be distracting the men in prayer.

After much back and forth we decided that we had enough and just, literally, barged our way into the main prayer hall. And guess what, none of the men were distracted! In fact, they came over, said salaam and chatted after prayer was over.

I don't understand where the attitude is coming from. I have been to mosques in Saudi where the women were segregated into a room and where they were not, a lot of it was space dictated. Even in Makkah, depending on the time, women pray out in the open just like the men do. There are no separate rooms there.

[Kenza 1]

The more "modern" masjid by me has the women pray directly behind the men (which I don't like because there is no privacy for the women) although they are re-doing the masjid and the women will pray on the 2nd floor. The masjid that I like to go to has 2 entries-one for the men and one for the women. Each side has its own bathroom and vending machines. The women's side is large with the possibility (like during Eid) to flow into another room. The place is secluded where no men can enter or see (lots of women come in and take off their niqabs). There are TV screens to see the imam and fans for the summer. The women's side connects with a playground area for the kids. i like being separated because then women can be women instead of being with the men and always having to look down, make sure your hijab is done well, etc.

[Zee Bee 61]

I have always thought there should be 3 rooms: men alone, women alone and then one for men and women.

Then everyone will be happy

[UmmSqueakster 54]

inshaAllah going to show AbuS the abaya choices this evening, after I teach him how to make peanut butter cookies. Ooo, so excited.

re: the documentary, it's not scheduled for our PBS stations yet, but I do remember when all of this was happening in real time several years ago. On one hand, I'm very sympathetic to the struggle to bring women into the masjid. On the other, I don't think she's going about it the right way. How she wants to deal with her own community masjid in morgantown is one thing, but to go around to other masjids and do her thing just pisses more people off then it helps.

Before Asra did her thing, I spearheaded our own mini revolution at the masjid I attended in college. The women's space, while not particularly dumpy, did not have a decent sound system so we could hear the khutbah. As such, we took over the balcony, which had previously been used as men's overflow. The male overflow got shoved to the basement For non jummah prayers, women moved into the back of the main section. It was all done without pissing off the majority of the community, alerting the newspaper and/or writing a book.

Here in the twin cities, I'm blessed to have a large number of masjids to choose from. The masjid near my house is an old converted church. Men and women enter through the front door, then women go to the left and men go to the right. The women sit at the back and left of the hall, while the men sit at the right. At eid, there are so many people, the women have the entire left side and the men have the right.

At my jummah masjid, men and women enter through the same door, and then women go into the prayer hall through the back entrance and men enter up front. The women spread out in the back and men usually are cramped together at the front. The khatib frequently askes the men to move forward to make room, but the women are free to take up as much space as they want

And, the masjid I attend on the weekends is a converted storefront that is generally over all crappy. When we had just half the building, women entered through the back and had a cramped little room. But now that we've bought the entire thing, men have half the building and women have the other half. Both genders have seperate front entrances. The accomidations aren't very nice, but then they're equally not nice for both genders. They do mashaAllah have an excellent sound system and flat screen television, so the women can see everything that goes on at the minbar.

At the time of the Prophet (saws), men prayed at the front, children in the middle and women at the back. The barrier was introduced at a later time, although I haven't found anyone who's written about when and why with any evidence. People suppose that it had to do with a lessening of modesty amongst the mosque goers, as compared to the time of the Prophet (saws).

One thing I do find humerous is that many of the people who shout bida bida bida about everything are the first in line to support the bida of dividing the masjid

Another documentary on the issue is

.

[Zee Bee 61]

Another documentary on the issue is

.

Excellent documentary

[MrsAmera 41]

I agree yes she could have handled it a little differently BUT I don't think it would have worked in her mosque. You have to have people willing to listen and compromise and I don't think the leadership was willing. Sometimes it takes radical moves to make people listen, and being dapper and sullen in your attempts doesn't really cut the cheese. Also I think there were more issues going on here, that all mosques struggle with namely a) imams and leadership that is not from the US and are recent immigrants.

My issue is a) I'm not walking in the backdoor. Sorry. Why can't the mens entrance be in the back? It just makes me feel like a 2nd class citizen. AND B) Why is it my issue if a guy can't control himself?? Husband and I had another argument relating to my wearing (in this case not wearing) socks to the mosque once - because it might be seductive? Exquease me?? Hi if you're looking at my feet and getting turned on it's not my problem.

I hate being cattle carted into a separte loud, noisy child ridden room to try to pray. I equally dislike khutbahs where the imam can't speak English and his topics make no sense. We have an issue with extremism in some of our mosques here and it bothers me so much! I understand wanting to retain cultural integrity (not that extremism is related to culture) BUT leadership and imams need to realize they are not living at home anymore. One of my favorite favorite lines from that documentary - not from Asra but a brother who attends the mosque was something along the lines of, "we're creating an American Islam, and the mosque is there to help meet the needs of our community in America. To those who are visitors, you are welcome, more than welcome to come to our mosque but please remember you are visitors." I've seen the hijacking of mosques by new predominant immigrant groups that come into a community to fulfill their view of what the mosque should be. It's a sad thing.

PS - Segregation - so it's just a culturally passed down thing right - no one else has seen it in the Qu'ran or hadith??? Where is VW when you need her..

Edited June 17, 2009 by MrsAmera

[catknit 144]

It's neither a documentary nor should be used for legitimate religious discussion BUT....

Watch the first season of Little Mosque on the Praire from CBC - you can watch it on youtube.

One of the first episodes in the first session [maybe episode 2 or 3] is about a barrier in Mercy's new mosque.

Being from Canada, of course the barrier is from an old hockey rink, there's a big to do between the female members and the male members...

[msheesha 548]

My personal opinion is that the varying "rules" at different masjids, and the less than friendly reactions to newcomers not knowing the rules, make it really intimidating to new Muslims. I think that's why many newly converted Muslims, especially women, give up on attending and making masjids a part of their life.

All these things - different entrances, different places to stand, etc. distract from the core of Islam - one's relationship with and worship to Allah. It's really frustrating, in my opinion, and keeps many Muslims away from masjids.

[100% Al Ahly Fan 53]

It's neither a documentary nor should be used for legitimate religious discussion BUT....

Watch the first season of Little Mosque on the Praire from CBC - you can watch it on youtube.

One of the first episodes in the first session [maybe episode 2 or 3] is about a barrier in Mercy's new mosque.

Being from Canada, of course the barrier is from an old hockey rink, there's a big to do between the female members and the male members...

One of my favorite shows! I'm so glad Rayan didn't marry JJ

[100% Al Ahly Fan 53]

Alright so a question for those more wise than me on these matters;

Husband and I had a little debate the other night. I was watching this PBS show; http://www.pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/show_mosque.html -

I really admire Asra Nomani as the woman she is having had the courage to stand up to and do/say things that maybe go against the norm. Also I entered Islam as a single mother, not having been married to my son's father and so a lot of things she went through I could understand. Anyway - part of this has to do with women's prayer spaces. Another woman I greatly admire is Dr. Ingrid Mattson president of ISNA. I personally know her very well and one of her big issues is having prayer spaces for women in mosques and not just tossing them in some dark closet in the back of the mosque. The episode really touches on the conflict of an "American mosque". Because for a lot of our community in the US the mosque is not the same space as it is in the ME. It's a community center, a school, and a safe place for Muslims to go for community and not just a place where men go to pray. This is lost on a lot of immigrants because they are not used to that.

So the real question came up with the issue of prayer, and the segregation of men and women. In this mosque women had to use the back door and where secluded - only later was it allowable for them to pray on the balcony of the mosque overhanging the main hall. My husband got so fired up that women would challenge the segregation, and why do they have to challenge that and that's what the Qu'ran says.....well I wasn't sure about that. So I dug out my Qu'ran and jee I couldn't find that it said that anywhere....so where is this coming from? To me, heck I don't want anyone looking at my backend while I'm praying but I am curious where this is coming from. Any englightenment?

Personally, I am not a fan of Asra Nomani. I read her book, Standing Alone, and I really felt like she is a women scorn and her way of getting back at the world is threw attacking certain traditions, culture and other ways of Islam. Again, remember this is just my person opinion. Now in saying that, I do agree with Nomani in the idea of equity in the mosque.

I really beleive that a lot of the problem is space. Many mosque just don't have the space to accomadate both sexes. So for the sake of person comfort, I think (I hope) this is why the whole separation started. Islam in itself doesn't require segregation. Personally, I like to pray all in one room (men in front and women behind) because it gives me a wonderful sense of our ummah.

It's true that during hagg we all pray together. Although, we are supposed to be in a state of purity (fitrah) and this is why this is accepted to pray together (side by side even), which is why there should be no segregation to begin with. Just my thoughts.

[catknit 144]

It's neither a documentary nor should be used for legitimate religious discussion BUT....

Watch the first season of Little Mosque on the Praire from CBC - you can watch it on youtube.

One of the first episodes in the first session [maybe episode 2 or 3] is about a barrier in Mercy's new mosque.

Being from Canada, of course the barrier is from an old hockey rink, there's a big to do between the female members and the male members...

One of my favorite shows! I'm so glad Rayan didn't marry JJ

Me too!!!!!!!!! I thought she'd be the one calling it off. Can't wait for the new season.

I'm hoping that when they remake it here [which they are supposed to in the next year or so] it's half decent.

[MrsAmera 41]

Everyone is free to their own opinion, however she makes valid points, and I think one of the biggest problems we as women face is that if you're too strong of a woman you're a ###### and if you're not strong enough then you're weak. (Sort of like Hilary Clinton was percieved during the election). In such a male dominated world it really takes a strong smart woman to stand up to injustices. In this case these "leaders" were hell bent on the notion that segregation was clearly prescribed in Islam and I just don't think that's true - either did she. BUT because of her attacking the "status quo" and daring to defy them she is seen as causing trouble... Sometimes culturally practices need to be attacked, if no one did that where would the world be today -certainly not in the same place it actually is.

Space in mosques....well I agree there isn't always space but be equitable. I mean really it's ok to just make sure there's enough space for the men? I don't think segregation started because of the space issue, I believe it to be a cultural interpretation - just like purdah, veils and other forms of segregation and isolation. It seems like hypocrisy to me that it's ok to pray together at hajj but not to do so in mosques, where you would generally know people even better and their intentions as well? I don't get it!!!

[Bajih 4]

Salaams-

Separation walls and such are purely cultural additions to Islam. It is obvious because every mosque has its own way of dealing with the issue. If it was something that was in Quran or hadith, it would be much more constant. The separate doorway thing is ridiculous as well. My ex and I went to a Board meeting to complain about that at a local mosque. We were there for "Welcome to Islam" night and the brother at the front door wouldn't let me enter. He pointed to some door down a dark sidewalk on the side of the building. There was NO WAY I was going to comply with that. The reasoning we got from the board and iman? Good heavens if a woman should brush up against a man. Everyone coming in the same door astagfrillallah! LOL. What a bunch of hooey. As if they all go through separate entrances when they go to Target or the grocery store- At least at the mosque women are covered and modest!! I just couldn't believe my ears- I am in the 21st century, right?

Having women on some 2nd floor is not correct either- as I have read that no one should be above the leader of the prayer. I will have to look that one up...

This is a hot topic button for me. My mosque has a women's room that leads to the main prayer hall with a door. I am usually one of a few women that go into that main prayer hall to pray. There is PLENTY of room. If women want to pray behind some curtain or wall, let them- but it should be a choice and not something mandated by the mosque or imam.

Additions of walls and curtains was NOT a part of the Prophet's time (pbh) and is purely innovation on the part of men and women who want to keep cultural stuff alive and well. (and there is PLENTY of that to go around- very hard to pick apart when you are a new convert!)

My 2 cents. (okay 3!)

Baj