Muslims

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Huh, I did not know that. I'd like to meet those muslim vegans. Being a meat minimalist, vegetarian or vegan by choice as opposed to necessity is quite rare in the muslim community and I could use some commradery

Edited June 12, 2009 by UmmSqueakster

[sandinista! 1,816]

!! you mean you don't come across a lot of tattooed, shia, vegan, punk rockers in minnesota? you should visit portland some time

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Ha, I'm about as radical as they come here, with hot pink hijab and a whisp of blue hair that won't stay put sticking out randomly.

How bout I send you some somali food and you send me some vegans?

Edited June 12, 2009 by UmmSqueakster

[doodlebugg 10]

Ok I know we've discussed dogs over and over again but to be honest I never really paid much attention since for me it was a non-issue what with my allergies to dogs and all.

I went hiking with a friend of mine today and on the way there her chihuahua kept jumping on me then on her, etc. (wicked cutie pie doggie btw). When I got home I changed clothes but when I told my husband about the dog he looked all serious and said I have to wash any clothes that were touched by Gizmo (the dog)'s nose and the first time has to be in dirt and water (mud).

I asked him to show me the hadith and he said he was busy and had to go to work. I googled it and found this:

As for the impurity of the dog, the great scholar Ibn Taymiyyah mentions three views of jurists regarding the impurity of the dog:

The First View: The first view is that of the Maliki scholars, who hold that a dog is pure even its saliva.

The Second View: The second view is attributed to the Shafi`i school and one of two narrations from Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. They are of the opinion that a dog is impure even its fur.

The Third View: The third view is ascribed to the Hanafi school and the other narration from Imam Ahmad. They maintain that a dog's saliva is impure while its fur is pure.

According to Ibn Taymiyyah, the third view is believed to be the most correct. Accordingly, if one's clothes get wet from touching a dog's fur, this doesn't render them najis (impure), while if a dog licks a pot or a container, what it touches must be thrown away and the container should be washed off. Also, if one touches the dog's fur after making wudu', it does not break the wudu', but if one gets touched with dog's saliva, then one has got tainted with najasa (impurity) which must be removed.

The late Sheikh Sayyed Sabiq (may Allah bless his soul) also gave preference to the opinion of the Hanafi school. He states in his book, Fiqh-us-Sunnah:

"Dogs are considered impure. Any container that a dog licks must be washed seven times, the first time with pure soil. Abu Hurayrah reported that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Purifying a container that a dog licks is done by washing it seven times, the first time with pure soil (that is, water mixed with earth until it becomes muddy)." (Reported by Muslim, Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Al-Bayhaqi). If a dog licks a pot that has dry food in it, what it touches and what surrounds it must be thrown away. The remainder may be kept, as it is still pure. As for a dog's fur, it is considered pure."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503544896

Now, my husband is stricter than me in many areas and apparently this is one of them but seriously how reliable is this hadith? I googled Abu Hurayrah and apparently there are some who are of the opinion that he has fabricated many hadiths. I don't think that's gonna fly with my husband though so can anyone disprove this somehow while still remaining in the hanafi madhab?

There are many rules that I just don't get and the strong hadiths I just go by without questioning normally since my human brain can't even fathom the wisdom of God so who am I to say I won't do this or that because it makes sense, but this one is really bugging me.

[catknit 144]

How many times total did he mention? With the ex, we always did 7...but all in regular water with only the dog clothes alone [didn't want to cross-contaminate non-touched clothes]. Big old pain in the backside - stayed away from dogs like the plague just to avoid the laundry.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The status and purity of dogs is one of the areas of law where the four major Sunni schools diverge in a substantial manner. Hanafi fiqh considers the saliva of dogs to be impure, so the impurity has to be resolved. What you found online is consistant with their practice. I'm Maliki school which, unlike the other major Sunni schools, has determined that dogs and their saliva, are not impure, but cleaning behind their saliva is still recommended due to the directive from the Prophet. I'm not a dog person, so I would do that anyway Imam Malik was rather favorably disposed toward dogs, finding no explicit prohibition against them in the Quran. The dog with Believers in the Surah "The Cave" is mentioned several times:

Thou wouldst have deemed them awake, whilst they were asleep, and We turned them on their right and on their left sides: their dog stretching forth his two fore legs on the threshold: if thou hadst come up on to them, thou wouldst have certainly turned back from them in flight, and wouldst certainly have been filled with terror of them. [Q 18:18]

(Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth,- doubtfully guessing at the unknown; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say thou: "My Lord knoweth best their number; It is but few that know their (real case)." Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers. [Q18:22]

This ayah speaks of dogs catching game, and to eat it is halal:

(Say: lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure: and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah:) ”eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it: and fear Allah ; for Allah is swift in taking account.” [Q 5:4]

Sahih Bukhari, Book of Wudhu # 174:

“Dogs would come freely into the masjid and urinate in the time of the Rasulullah (’alayhis salaam), and they would not pour water over it (i.e. the urine).”

I realize this doesn't help you find a work around Hanafi fiqh, doodle, but maybe your husband is unaware that this issue was still quite debatable even among the most venerated scholars.

Ok I know we've discussed dogs over and over again but to be honest I never really paid much attention since for me it was a non-issue what with my allergies to dogs and all.

I went hiking with a friend of mine today and on the way there her chihuahua kept jumping on me then on her, etc. (wicked cutie pie doggie btw). When I got home I changed clothes but when I told my husband about the dog he looked all serious and said I have to wash any clothes that were touched by Gizmo (the dog)'s nose and the first time has to be in dirt and water (mud).

I asked him to show me the hadith and he said he was busy and had to go to work. I googled it and found this:

As for the impurity of the dog, the great scholar Ibn Taymiyyah mentions three views of jurists regarding the impurity of the dog:

The First View: The first view is that of the Maliki scholars, who hold that a dog is pure even its saliva.

The Second View: The second view is attributed to the Shafi`i school and one of two narrations from Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. They are of the opinion that a dog is impure even its fur.

The Third View: The third view is ascribed to the Hanafi school and the other narration from Imam Ahmad. They maintain that a dog's saliva is impure while its fur is pure.

According to Ibn Taymiyyah, the third view is believed to be the most correct. Accordingly, if one's clothes get wet from touching a dog's fur, this doesn't render them najis (impure), while if a dog licks a pot or a container, what it touches must be thrown away and the container should be washed off. Also, if one touches the dog's fur after making wudu', it does not break the wudu', but if one gets touched with dog's saliva, then one has got tainted with najasa (impurity) which must be removed.

The late Sheikh Sayyed Sabiq (may Allah bless his soul) also gave preference to the opinion of the Hanafi school. He states in his book, Fiqh-us-Sunnah:

"Dogs are considered impure. Any container that a dog licks must be washed seven times, the first time with pure soil. Abu Hurayrah reported that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Purifying a container that a dog licks is done by washing it seven times, the first time with pure soil (that is, water mixed with earth until it becomes muddy)." (Reported by Muslim, Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Al-Bayhaqi). If a dog licks a pot that has dry food in it, what it touches and what surrounds it must be thrown away. The remainder may be kept, as it is still pure. As for a dog's fur, it is considered pure."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503544896

Now, my husband is stricter than me in many areas and apparently this is one of them but seriously how reliable is this hadith? I googled Abu Hurayrah and apparently there are some who are of the opinion that he has fabricated many hadiths. I don't think that's gonna fly with my husband though so can anyone disprove this somehow while still remaining in the hanafi madhab?

There are many rules that I just don't get and the strong hadiths I just go by without questioning normally since my human brain can't even fathom the wisdom of God so who am I to say I won't do this or that because it makes sense, but this one is really bugging me.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sofiyya

[doodlebugg 10]

Thanks.

You know this leads me to another issue...................how many of your husbands even know what madhab they follow or know of the actual existance of the other madhabs? How many know of the existance of sufism?

Honestly sometimes I just wonder what they taught them in Egypt. When I first started looking into sufism I told my husband and he had no idea what I was talking about. I talked to his friend who lives in Canada and who he grew up with in Cairo and after a while he *kind of* had a clue but not really.

Well this friend said something that made me understand my husband more. He said they were taught what was authorized to be taught and that was that. He said just because we haven't heard of it doesn't mean we don't have the ability to understand it if it's finally shown to us. (i think he was a wee bit huffy by my suprise that he didn't know about it).

Growing up I knew that some countries really scrutinized what books were out there for teachers to teach and for adults to read freely but I just didn't think of Egypt being that way. I wonder if it's that way now for the kids of schoolage given that they can just hop on the internet and look up things freely? Though I'm sure most of the kids would be more likely to go to the computer cafe and play games rather than look up madhabs and such.

How many times total did he mention? With the ex, we always did 7...but all in regular water with only the dog clothes alone [didn't want to cross-contaminate non-touched clothes]. Big old pain in the backside - stayed away from dogs like the plague just to avoid the laundry.

7 total, 1st being washed in mud. right. like i'm gonna wash my white tshirt in mud.

[Kenza 1]

Thanks.

You know this leads me to another issue...................how many of your husbands even know what madhab they follow or know of the actual existance of the other madhabs? How many know of the existance of sufism?

Honestly sometimes I just wonder what they taught them in Egypt. When I first started looking into sufism I told my husband and he had no idea what I was talking about. I talked to his friend who lives in Canada and who he grew up with in Cairo and after a while he *kind of* had a clue but not really.

Well this friend said something that made me understand my husband more. He said they were taught what was authorized to be taught and that was that. He said just because we haven't heard of it doesn't mean we don't have the ability to understand it if it's finally shown to us. (i think he was a wee bit huffy by my suprise that he didn't know about it).

Growing up I knew that some countries really scrutinized what books were out there for teachers to teach and for adults to read freely but I just didn't think of Egypt being that way. I wonder if it's that way now for the kids of schoolage given that they can just hop on the internet and look up things freely? Though I'm sure most of the kids would be more likely to go to the computer cafe and play games rather than look up madhabs and such.

How many times total did he mention? With the ex, we always did 7...but all in regular water with only the dog clothes alone [didn't want to cross-contaminate non-touched clothes]. Big old pain in the backside - stayed away from dogs like the plague just to avoid the laundry.

7 total, 1st being washed in mud. right. like i'm gonna wash my white tshirt in mud.

In Morocco they follow Maliki...correct me if i'm wrong

[100% Al Ahly Fan 53]

Thanks.

You know this leads me to another issue...................how many of your husbands even know what madhab they follow or know of the actual existance of the other madhabs? How many know of the existance of sufism?

Honestly sometimes I just wonder what they taught them in Egypt. When I first started looking into sufism I told my husband and he had no idea what I was talking about. I talked to his friend who lives in Canada and who he grew up with in Cairo and after a while he *kind of* had a clue but not really.

Well this friend said something that made me understand my husband more. He said they were taught what was authorized to be taught and that was that. He said just because we haven't heard of it doesn't mean we don't have the ability to understand it if it's finally shown to us. (i think he was a wee bit huffy by my suprise that he didn't know about it).

Growing up I knew that some countries really scrutinized what books were out there for teachers to teach and for adults to read freely but I just didn't think of Egypt being that way. I wonder if it's that way now for the kids of schoolage given that they can just hop on the internet and look up things freely? Though I'm sure most of the kids would be more likely to go to the computer cafe and play games rather than look up madhabs and such.

How many times total did he mention? With the ex, we always did 7...but all in regular water with only the dog clothes alone [didn't want to cross-contaminate non-touched clothes]. Big old pain in the backside - stayed away from dogs like the plague just to avoid the laundry.

7 total, 1st being washed in mud. right. like i'm gonna wash my white tshirt in mud.

In Morocco they follow Maliki...correct me if i'm wrong

I am pretty sure you are correct on that one sister Kenza.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

"Dogs are considered impure. Any container that a dog licks must be washed seven times, the first time with pure soil. Abu Hurayrah reported that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Purifying a container that a dog licks is done by washing it seven times, the first time with pure soil (that is, water mixed with earth until it becomes muddy)." (Reported by Muslim, Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Al-Bayhaqi). If a dog licks a pot that has dry food in it, what it touches and what surrounds it must be thrown away. The remainder may be kept, as it is still pure. As for a dog's fur, it is considered pure."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503544896

Now, my husband is stricter than me in many areas and apparently this is one of them but seriously how reliable is this hadith? I googled Abu Hurayrah and apparently there are some who are of the opinion that he has fabricated many hadiths. I don't think that's gonna fly with my husband though so can anyone disprove this somehow while still remaining in the hanafi madhab?

There are many rules that I just don't get and the strong hadiths I just go by without questioning normally since my human brain can't even fathom the wisdom of God so who am I to say I won't do this or that because it makes sense, but this one is really bugging me.

The hadith is saheeh. Abu Hurayrah (ra) narrated a lot of ahadith. If he were proven to be unreliable (and he hasn't yet, although I believe Fatima Mernissi makes an argument in her book The Veil and the Male Elite), it would shake up a lot of things.

According to this hanafi opinion, one doesn't need to wash the clothes in dirt - http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...1385&CATE=3 - only that they need to wash with water 3 times the area where saliva may have touched.

If you wanted to humor your husband, then rub a little dust where the dog's saliva touched.

I'm actually reading a book you might enjoy/find informative - The Difference of the Imams. In reading this, I realize how little I know compared to the muhhadith and mujtahid imams, and that there is so much more to the hadith then just the simple statement and isnad.

What I would love is to find is a book that covers major rulings in all 4 madhabs and explains how/why the mujtahid imams reached their conclusions. I think some of the scholars of al andalus wrote books like that, but I don't know if they've been translated.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Thanks.

You know this leads me to another issue...................how many of your husbands even know what madhab they follow or know of the actual existance of the other madhabs? How many know of the existance of sufism?

AbuS had the good fortune to have a knowledgable imam at his neighborhood masjid, who encouraged him to pursue religious studies. Prior to that, his religious education wasn't much - just the pitiful excuse for RE in school, where, according to AbuS, it was a bit of Qur'an recitation and the students mocking the teacher mercilessly.

Unfortunately for me, what the imam encouraged him to study was ibn Hazm, who while knowledgable, it very harsh in his writing and totally not upon the traditional approach to islam that I'm on.

Al Azhar began it's steep decline during the presidency of Abdul Nasser, although traditional religious education had been in decline for decades prior, and with it, the knowledge of the general population in terms of traditional religious knowledge. To be an azhari used to be a sign of great knowledge and importance. Now I've heard that azharis take off their distinctive hats when they travel to certain parts of Cairo so they're not mocked.

People started to look elsewhere for religious guidance, and that elsewhere came from petro dollars, which in general aren't too keen on the traditional madhab based system and is even less keen on sufism.

AbuS is also quite familiar sufism as practiced in egypt, as one of his great uncles was a sheikh in the shadhili tariq. Unfortunately, this left a bad taste in his mouth because there is a lot of folk traditions mixed in with the religious practice, so there is often mixed dancing at sufi gatherings, and suplicating to the dead sheikhs and saints at their tombs. Trying to convince him that all sufis are in fact not goofy is a many year project I'm undertaking, lol.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

"Dogs are considered impure. Any container that a dog licks must be washed seven times, the first time with pure soil. Abu Hurayrah reported that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Purifying a container that a dog licks is done by washing it seven times, the first time with pure soil (that is, water mixed with earth until it becomes muddy)." (Reported by Muslim, Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Al-Bayhaqi). If a dog licks a pot that has dry food in it, what it touches and what surrounds it must be thrown away. The remainder may be kept, as it is still pure. As for a dog's fur, it is considered pure."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503544896

Now, my husband is stricter than me in many areas and apparently this is one of them but seriously how reliable is this hadith? I googled Abu Hurayrah and apparently there are some who are of the opinion that he has fabricated many hadiths. I don't think that's gonna fly with my husband though so can anyone disprove this somehow while still remaining in the hanafi madhab?

There are many rules that I just don't get and the strong hadiths I just go by without questioning normally since my human brain can't even fathom the wisdom of God so who am I to say I won't do this or that because it makes sense, but this one is really bugging me.

The hadith is saheeh. Abu Hurayrah (ra) narrated a lot of ahadith. If he were proven to be unreliable (and he hasn't yet, although I believe Fatima Mernissi makes an argument in her book The Veil and the Male Elite), it would shake up a lot of things.

According to this hanafi opinion, one doesn't need to wash the clothes in dirt - http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...1385&CATE=3 - only that they need to wash with water 3 times the area where saliva may have touched.

If you wanted to humor your husband, then rub a little dust where the dog's saliva touched.

I'm actually reading a book you might enjoy/find informative - The Difference of the Imams. In reading this, I realize how little I know compared to the muhhadith and mujtahid imams, and that there is so much more to the hadith then just the simple statement and isnad.

What I would love is to find is a book that covers major rulings in all 4 madhabs and explains how/why the mujtahid imams reached their conclusions. I think some of the scholars of al andalus wrote books like that, but I don't know if they've been translated.

There are books like that, Rahma, but the only western language I've seen them translated into is French. I've read many papers on the subject though. It is an extremely interesting read. It's a specialty I've long engagd in, so I'm delighted to know you have a desire to know more about this! So few Muslim laypersons seem to care about it (you're only the second one on ths board), and its SUCH an important subject for anyone who wants to learn about Islamic law.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thanks.

You know this leads me to another issue...................how many of your husbands even know what madhab they follow or know of the actual existance of the other madhabs? How many know of the existance of sufism?

Honestly sometimes I just wonder what they taught them in Egypt. When I first started looking into sufism I told my husband and he had no idea what I was talking about. I talked to his friend who lives in Canada and who he grew up with in Cairo and after a while he *kind of* had a clue but not really.

Well this friend said something that made me understand my husband more. He said they were taught what was authorized to be taught and that was that. He said just because we haven't heard of it doesn't mean we don't have the ability to understand it if it's finally shown to us. (i think he was a wee bit huffy by my suprise that he didn't know about it).

Growing up I knew that some countries really scrutinized what books were out there for teachers to teach and for adults to read freely but I just didn't think of Egypt being that way. I wonder if it's that way now for the kids of schoolage given that they can just hop on the internet and look up things freely? Though I'm sure most of the kids would be more likely to go to the computer cafe and play games rather than look up madhabs and such.

How many times total did he mention? With the ex, we always did 7...but all in regular water with only the dog clothes alone [didn't want to cross-contaminate non-touched clothes]. Big old pain in the backside - stayed away from dogs like the plague just to avoid the laundry.

7 total, 1st being washed in mud. right. like i'm gonna wash my white tshirt in mud.

In Morocco they follow Maliki...correct me if i'm wrong

I am pretty sure you are correct on that one sister Kenza.

She is correct.

[brnidokiegurl 0]

ahmed gave our dog a bath tonight, ha he kept saying this is my first time to everrrrrrr do this. He did fine UNTIL out and she shook all over him (dont think he appreciated). He handles the dog ok most time but he couldnt manage the cats so they are gone.

[doodlebugg 10]

ahmed gave our dog a bath tonight, ha he kept saying this is my first time to everrrrrrr do this. He did fine UNTIL out and she shook all over him (dont think he appreciated). He handles the dog ok most time but he couldnt manage the cats so they are gone.

See now that is something I can't wrap my human mind around...why cats are ok and dogs are not. Not for nothin' but half the time I see my cat she's licking certain areas that well you know..blech! So THAT is ok and halal but a chihuahua who is owned by my friend who's husband is so ocd that the dog has to have a bath after each time the poor thing pees or poops is not?