Muslims

[sassysis 0]

This is a real honest question.... not trying to stir any pot... (cause this one has been stirred a lot lol).

Ok... for those of you that are Muslim (bear with me) if Islam is the true religion.... why isn't Islam for everyone?

I don't understand how one could believe a religion is the truth, but not everyone needed it.

Allah says in the Quran that Islam is not for everyone, that there are some who will be lead astray. He deals often with those who have a "hijab" over their hearts. He also says that He has made more than one path to Him, and that not all who enter jannah will be among those who call themselves Muslim, but other people of the Book may enter, too. He gives us free-will, to abstain or embrace His Message. If He merely forced us to believe, there would be no challenge in learning to live within His Intent, nor any joy in the blessings one receives from doing so.

Interesting. I knew about the "People of the Book" but I still got the impression that Muslims still believed Islam was the only way. I guess I fall under the PotB category.

Do you know where it says in the Qur'an that Islam is not necessarily for everyone? and that there are different paths? I would like to read that for myself in my Qur'an.

Me too. thanks

[Y's_habibitk 2]

This is a real honest question.... not trying to stir any pot... (cause this one has been stirred a lot lol).

Ok... for those of you that are Muslim (bear with me) if Islam is the true religion.... why isn't Islam for everyone?

I don't understand how one could believe a religion is the truth, but not everyone needed it.

Allah says in the Quran that Islam is not for everyone, that there are some who will be lead astray. He deals often with those who have a "hijab" over their hearts. He also says that He has made more than one path to Him, and that not all who enter jannah will be among those who call themselves Muslim, but other people of the Book may enter, too. He gives us free-will, to abstain or embrace His Message. If He merely forced us to believe, there would be no challenge in learning to live within His Intent, nor any joy in the blessings one receives from doing so.

Interesting. I knew about the "People of the Book" but I still got the impression that Muslims still believed Islam was the only way. I guess I fall under the PotB category.

Do you know where it says in the Qur'an that Islam is not necessarily for everyone? and that there are different paths? I would like to read that for myself in my Qur'an.

Me too. thanks

"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"

Surah 2(the cow) verse 62

I had to google it for the exact verse and verbage, but I remembered reading this and thinking: My religion doesnt leave any room for any other believers to go to heaven. How wonderful about Islam. I found an even greater respect that day

[Ahmeds Girl 0]

The title of this thread states it is for general chat for muslims or anyone interested in participating. The theme clearly states that this thread is for Muslim interests and that is the perspective of those who chose to participate. No where do I see that this thread invites challenges or discussion about the validity of Islam vs any other religion, nor do I get the impression from the majority of the thread participants that this is a direction they wish to pursue.

As a moderator I am suggesting that those who are interested in discussing the merits of one religious belief vs another - or none - start a separate thread to pursue that issue and leave the arguments off of this thread. I appreciate that the participants have been very patient during the preceding discussions, but believe they are right - this is not the thread for this type of discussion. Please do not continue it here. Start a new thread for that purpose if you wish to continue.

I disagree with you. I think that what you are suggesting is unfair censorship, as the points made related to the discussion.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Ahmeds Girl

[Y's_habibitk 2]

The title of this thread states it is for general chat for muslims or anyone interested in participating. The theme clearly states that this thread is for Muslim interests and that is the perspective of those who chose to participate. No where do I see that this thread invites challenges or discussion about the validity of Islam vs any other religion, nor do I get the impression from the majority of the thread participants that this is a direction they wish to pursue.

As a moderator I am suggesting that those who are interested in discussing the merits of one religious belief vs another - or none - start a separate thread to pursue that issue and leave the arguments off of this thread. I appreciate that the participants have been very patient during the preceding discussions, but believe they are right - this is not the thread for this type of discussion. Please do not continue it here. Start a new thread for that purpose if you wish to continue.

I disagree with you. I think that what you are suggesting is unfair censorship, as the points made related to the discussion.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=195315

here

[Muh and me 18]

The title of this thread states it is for general chat for muslims or anyone interested in participating. The theme clearly states that this thread is for Muslim interests and that is the perspective of those who chose to participate. No where do I see that this thread invites challenges or discussion about the validity of Islam vs any other religion, nor do I get the impression from the majority of the thread participants that this is a direction they wish to pursue.

As a moderator I am suggesting that those who are interested in discussing the merits of one religious belief vs another - or none - start a separate thread to pursue that issue and leave the arguments off of this thread. I appreciate that the participants have been very patient during the preceding discussions, but believe they are right - this is not the thread for this type of discussion. Please do not continue it here. Start a new thread for that purpose if you wish to continue.

I disagree with you. I think that what you are suggesting is unfair censorship, as the points made related to the discussion.

I haven't said much up to this point. But I have to agree with the mod on this. There has been another thread started where u can discuss what u want there. please don't try starting anymore trouble here, we don't want to see this thread being closed.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Two good general lectures I listened to yesterday:

Popping the dunya bubble

and

Building a Foundation <--- I blogged about this one here. If anyone wants to add bricks to their foundation with me, let me know via my blog. We could keep each other accountable

Also, tangentally, let me know what you think of my new blog layout. I had a lot of fun today

[Kathryn41 3,205]

The title of this thread states it is for general chat for muslims or anyone interested in participating. The theme clearly states that this thread is for Muslim interests and that is the perspective of those who chose to participate. No where do I see that this thread invites challenges or discussion about the validity of Islam vs any other religion, nor do I get the impression from the majority of the thread participants that this is a direction they wish to pursue.

As a moderator I am suggesting that those who are interested in discussing the merits of one religious belief vs another - or none - start a separate thread to pursue that issue and leave the arguments off of this thread. I appreciate that the participants have been very patient during the preceding discussions, but believe they are right - this is not the thread for this type of discussion. Please do not continue it here. Start a new thread for that purpose if you wish to continue.

I disagree with you. I think that what you are suggesting is unfair censorship, as the points made related to the discussion.

There is a time and place for everything. This is neither the time nor the place. If you believe that is censorship, so be it. I have made my request politely. I expect you to respect it. It is not open for discussion.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Kathryn41

[Sofiyya 1,687]

This is a real honest question.... not trying to stir any pot... (cause this one has been stirred a lot lol).

Ok... for those of you that are Muslim (bear with me) if Islam is the true religion.... why isn't Islam for everyone?

I don't understand how one could believe a religion is the truth, but not everyone needed it.

Allah says in the Quran that Islam is not for everyone, that there are some who will be lead astray. He deals often with those who have a "hijab" over their hearts. He also says that He has made more than one path to Him, and that not all who enter jannah will be among those who call themselves Muslim, but other people of the Book may enter, too. He gives us free-will, to abstain or embrace His Message. If He merely forced us to believe, there would be no challenge in learning to live within His Intent, nor any joy in the blessings one receives from doing so.

Interesting. I knew about the "People of the Book" but I still got the impression that Muslims still believed Islam was the only way. I guess I fall under the PotB category.

Do you know where it says in the Qur'an that Islam is not necessarily for everyone? and that there are different paths? I would like to read that for myself in my Qur'an.

Me too. thanks

"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"

Surah 2(the cow) verse 62

I had to google it for the exact verse and verbage, but I remembered reading this and thinking: My religion doesnt leave any room for any other believers to go to heaven. How wonderful about Islam. I found an even greater respect that day

The sentiment in that ayah is repeated at least 3 times in the Quran.

The ayah that tells how Allah has created different paths is this:

5:48 (Y. Ali) To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

In the same vain, there is this:

29:46 (Y. Ali) And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Islam means "submission" to God. When the Quran says, for example, "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, it never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)." 3:85 (Y. Ali) , the emphasis is on the practice of spiritual and social submission to God, as He defines it. Clearly, the Quran describes the commonalities between devout Muslims and devout ahl al kitabi, and the ways that we should come together in His Name.

I hope that helps.

[HLM 1]

I agree with Barza woman's post except the begining where she says Islam is not for everyone; God in so many verses have said that it is for everyone and those who are lead astray is their fault not the religion's fault. I can get the verses but it will take me sometime as I navigate everything in arabic but if Rahma knows what I'm talking about she can help by getting the translation of the verses. Also the jews and christians who are mentioned in the Quran from my knowledge are the ones who have followed the 'original' bible and torah; the ones which had no changes made by man.

[HLM 1]

I posted before I read your post BW....You've posted the verses I had in mind but I still believe in the first verse you posted Allah meant one way.... he says " a way".

[HLM 1]

BW: Islam means "submission" to God. When the Quran says, for example, "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, it never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)." 3:85 (Y. Ali) , the emphasis is on the practice of spiritual and social submission to God, as He defines it. Clearly, the Quran describes the commonalities between devout Muslims and devout ahl al kitabi, and the ways that we should come together in His Name.

I'm sorry but I'm confused....clearly the ayah says Allah won't accept any religion but Islam....I don't see any emphasis on the spiritual part of the submission on itself since he used "Al-Islam" in arabic which is the noun not the verb!!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I agree with Barza woman's post except the begining where she says Islam is not for everyone; God in so many verses have said that it is for everyone and those who are lead astray is their fault not the religion's fault. I can get the verses but it will take me sometime as I navigate everything in arabic but if Rahma knows what I'm talking about she can help by getting the translation of the verses. Also the jews and christians who are mentioned in the Quran from my knowledge are the ones who have followed the 'original' bible and torah; the ones which had no changes made by man.

I posted before I read your post BW....You've posted the verses I had in mind but I still believe in the first verse you posted Allah meant one way.... he says " a way".

You are right that there is One Way, and that Way is to Him, sis, but there is more than one path to His Way. Islam, the total submission to God's Will, is for everyone,but Islam, the religion, as a mortal construct, is not for everyone. The two concepts are not the same, as we see by the variety of interpretations of the text, which are flawed by the limits of human understanding. Islamic scholars have never denied this. In order to try to understand and to act in ways that please Him, the religion evolved in a way that incorporates varying social norms and perspectives that Islam, the Way of Allah, is not bound by.

Allah tells us that those who call themselves Muslim are not saved by the label alone, and those who do not call themselves Muslim are not condemned by the omission of it. For each of us, it is our acts that define and distinguish us as irreligious or righteous. Allah distinguishes righteous ahl al kitab by their acts, and surely, He knows they are not Muslims, as we define ourselves.

3:113 - 116 Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right. Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against God: They will be companions of the Fire,- dwelling therein (for ever).

[HLM 1]

Yes I get it masha Allah I agree with you in everything but I believe that those who are not Muslim but are submissive; rightoues as described in the verse are the ones who never heard of Allah's message or knew of the Prophet Mohammed. But anyone heard of the message will be accountable for it whether accepts it or not; right?

[Leyla 0]

This is a real honest question.... not trying to stir any pot... (cause this one has been stirred a lot lol).

Ok... for those of you that are Muslim (bear with me) if Islam is the true religion.... why isn't Islam for everyone?

I don't understand how one could believe a religion is the truth, but not everyone needed it.

Allah says in the Quran that Islam is not for everyone, that there are some who will be lead astray. He deals often with those who have a "hijab" over their hearts. He also says that He has made more than one path to Him, and that not all who enter jannah will be among those who call themselves Muslim, but other people of the Book may enter, too. He gives us free-will, to abstain or embrace His Message. If He merely forced us to believe, there would be no challenge in learning to live within His Intent, nor any joy in the blessings one receives from doing so.

Interesting. I knew about the "People of the Book" but I still got the impression that Muslims still believed Islam was the only way. I guess I fall under the PotB category.

Do you know where it says in the Qur'an that Islam is not necessarily for everyone? and that there are different paths? I would like to read that for myself in my Qur'an.

Me too. thanks

"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"

Surah 2(the cow) verse 62

I had to google it for the exact verse and verbage, but I remembered reading this and thinking: My religion doesnt leave any room for any other believers to go to heaven. How wonderful about Islam. I found an even greater respect that day

I agree with Barza woman's post except the begining where she says Islam is not for everyone; God in so many verses have said that it is for everyone and those who are lead astray is their fault not the religion's fault. I can get the verses but it will take me sometime as I navigate everything in arabic but if Rahma knows what I'm talking about she can help by getting the translation of the verses. Also the jews and christians who are mentioned in the Quran from my knowledge are the ones who have followed the 'original' bible and torah; the ones which had no changes made by man.

I posted before I read your post BW....You've posted the verses I had in mind but I still believe in the first verse you posted Allah meant one way.... he says " a way".

You are right that there is One Way, and that Way is to Him, sis, but there is more than one path to His Way. Islam, the total submission to God's Will, is for everyone,but Islam, the religion, as a mortal construct, is not for everyone. The two concepts are not the same, as we see by the variety of interpretations of the text, which are flawed by the limits of human understanding. Islamic scholars have never denied this. In order to try to understand and to act in ways that please Him, the religion evolved in a way that incorporates varying social norms and perspectives that Islam, the Way of Allah, is not bound by.

Allah tells us that those who call themselves Muslim are not saved by the label alone, and those who do not call themselves Muslim are not condemned by the omission of it. For each of us, it is our acts that define and distinguish us as irreligious or righteous. Allah distinguishes righteous ahl al kitab by their acts, and surely, He knows they are not Muslims, as we define ourselves.

3:113 - 116 Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right. Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against God: They will be companions of the Fire,- dwelling therein (for ever).

This makes sense to me and I am so thankful that you posted. I find myself in a strange position where I believe most of the things Muslims believe in. but the "mortal construct" is not for me. The construct once put me in danger of forgetting God, and I don't want to be in that position. I'd rather always think of God, remember God and love God, then to forget him in the midst of a construct.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Since I've sworn off internet arguing, I'll just mention that from everything I've seen, the position of the majority is that with this verse - If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, it never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost -signifies that after the coming of the Prophet Muhammad (saws), previous paths taught by previous prophets (as) would no longer be accepted.

Leyla, have you looked into tasawwuf? Not the hippy dippy sufism that has been completely denuded of all it's islamic sources, but real honest to God tasawwuf? In it, there is a lot of emphasis on constructs of the religion, but as a means to reaching Allah (swt). The goal is a complete submission to Allah (swt) through the Qur'an and Sunnah in order to purify onself to attain that deep and meaningful connection with Allah (swt).

If salat is just movements, then of course it will be a barrier to reaching Allah (swt). But if one explores the meaning of salat, why we do this, because it was taught to the Prophet Muhammad (saws) by Allah (swt) and the Angel Jibreel (as) as the perfect form of worship, that Allah (swt) is speaking with us while we are praying, that we are having a close connection with our Lord, salat becomes a way to connect with Allah (swt).

Why do we follow all of these laws and rules? So that we move closer to Allah (swt), become His friend, become beloved to Him.

“Whomever is hostile to a friend of Mine I declare war against. My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him, and My slave keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him. And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks. If he asks Me, I will surely give to him, and if he seeks refuge in Me, I will surely protect him. I do not hesitate from anything I shall do more than My hesitation to take the soul of the believer who dislikes death; for I dislike displeasing him” (Bukhari, 8.131: 6502. S).

This is the goal of islam, and the science of tasawwuf has been preserved to help the seeker along the path to reach Allah (swt).